TheRPGSite

Confirmation bias and all but listen to the video and discuss.

Not interested?

Well presented and thought out.

I do though take issue with his slight insistence that there must be black people at every table. This is just tokenism from the other side of the fence. Or getting duped by the SJW rhetoric. I've been playing for longer than he has and you know how many handicapped players I've met? Yeah. Does every damn table need a handicapped person? Or an asian? Or a LGBTwhatever?

The answer is. No. You do not neeeeeeeed us at your table. Its nice if we are there. But the second you neeeeeed us there you've reduced us to a checkmark on the SJW score card and we will despise you for it.

Otherwise he hits on alot of the reasons.
Peer pressure being the biggest. Why arent there more black people in X. Because black people wont let them.

Ditto. Kudos for him tackling a tough subject that seems to come up as often as the lament of, "Why are there no women gaming?"

Huh, my own games have always been about as "black" as the local populace. Ditto for "asian", "gay", "trans", and probably a few others.

In the early days "girls" were scarce, but women make up about 50% of the folks I play with over the past 3 decades.

I must live on a different planet than some of these people.

In my experience, it depends where you are at.

At Penn State in the late 1980s, there were not a lot of black students in general, and so there were only a handful in geek circles, but they were welcome. Campus politics were racist in a "making entirely too big a deal out of everything to do with race" kind of way, and that made it harder to just be friends without it being some kind of litmus test or political statement. (I've never been anywhere as racist as college.)

In the 90's and 2000's I was involved with a tabletop/board gaming club in Philly, and with different demographics, there were a lot more minorities, and in some some chapters, blacks were the majority. And as a white person, I felt welcome there. :)

I havent watched the video yet, but i have had that expirence with peer pressure. Only for everyone to suddenly get into anime now lol.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 03:46:47 AM
Confirmation bias and all but listen to the video and discuss.

I already said my peace in the video's comment section. But in a nutshell, 95% of blacks don't see a black role-model (TTRPG gamer) that they can then copy/join. Playing TTRPGs is acting white still to them. Also, race-swapping the artwork in books is not working (see black girl in wheelchair playing as the GM at a table in some books, lightning will strike several times and shark/bear attacks will happen all at once before this happens once).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 01:00:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 03:46:47 AM
Confirmation bias and all but listen to the video and discuss.

I already said my peace in the video's comment section. But in a nutshell, 95% of blacks don't see a black role-model (TTRPG gamer) that they can then copy/join. Playing TTRPGs is acting white still to them. Also, race-swapping the artwork in books is not working.

Interesting to see you comment here but not on your own thread to ask MongooseMatt about Shield Maidens. Why is that?

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 01:05:04 PM
Interesting to see you comment here but not on your own thread to ask MongooseMatt about Shield Maidens. Why is that?

I just got here. Haven't gone through the posts yet.

OK, I just watched the video. As a quick overview for those who haven't watched it yet, the four reasons are:

Quote1. Ignorance - They haven't heard of it.
2. No Interest - They know of it, but it isn't their jam.
3. Black American Culture - Peer pressure that RPGs are not a "black" thing, and that those who do are perceived as "trying to be white".
4. Religious Stigma - The Satanic Panic among many churches which are influential among American black communities.

It was a little unclear, but it seems like he's suggesting that educating more people about RPGs and reaching out might get more black people interested.

I don't have any great insights as far as marketing. One observation I have is that science fiction seems to be doing better within Black American culture than fantasy is. There are a number of prominent black science fiction authors, and in pop culture, there are many sci-fi movies and tv shows with a black lead - Men in Black, Deep Space 9, etc. This is significantly less true of fantasy, but fantasy is dominant within RPGs.

Part of the problem is the idea that we somehow HAVE to get black people interested in RPGs, or that lack of interest in RPGs in the black American community is somehow reflective of RPGs themselves, as opposed to black American culture or personal preferences. Sometimes people have different interests. I had a friend who used to play with us in my first gaming group (who I met through the guy who introduced me into RPGs) who happened to be black (Hispanic) and one of the reasons he rarely played with us was cuz he was more interested in sports. We often tried to get him to play (cuz he was cool and we needed more people, not to fill some diversity quota), but he rarely did cuz he was usually more focused on training for track and field.

So where we supposed to have strapped him into a chair to make our game group more "diverse" (not that most of us weren't at least a bit mixed race and Hispanic already)? Or was it OK to accept that sometimes people have different interests?

edit: grammer  :P

Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 04:32:55 AM
OK, I just watched the video. As a quick overview for those who haven't watched it yet, the four reasons are:

Quote1. Ignorance - They haven't heard of it.
2. No Interest - They know of it, but it isn't their jam.
3. Black American Culture - Peer pressure that RPGs are not a "black" thing, and that those who do are perceived as "trying to be white".
4. Religious Stigma - The Satanic Panic among many churches which are influential among American black communities.

It was a little unclear, but it seems like he's suggesting that educating more people about RPGs and reaching out might get more black people interested.

I don't have any great insights as far as marketing. One observation I have is that science fiction seems to be doing better within Black American culture than fantasy is. There are a number of prominent black science fiction authors, and in pop culture, there are many sci-fi movies and tv shows with a black lead - Men in Black, Deep Space 9, etc. This is significantly less true of fantasy, but fantasy is dominant within RPGs.

My impression wasn't that he was proposing solutions so much as making a video saying he think a lot of people have misdiagnosed the reasons, and then offers insights based on what he has seen. I think it is more: here are the reasons why I think its the case, do what you want with this information. I haven't watched it since it came out though so I might be misremembering details.

I found this video a while back. It's certainly food for thought; I don't view equal participation per population as my goal, but I do think that cultural phenomena which prevent people from playing the games they enjoy is probably not good. Of the listed factors, I only think 3 and 4 are actually worth discussing as potential problems to rectify.

I know for a fact that regarding RPGs as "not a black thing" is a real peer pressure. I am notably less sure about the religious stigma; I think it's possible there's a reflex there, but the Satanic Panic was 30 years ago. Chances are, it's an atrophied reflex at this point.

But more to the point, I think D&D is a poor entry game for the black community in general. It's pseudopagan pantheon will trigger Satanic Panic reflexes, and I understand that blacks are less interested in High Fantasy-type games (although I don't know if there's enough black participation to make a case for a positive preference.) I don't think that RPGs will take off in the black community until after D&D is no longer the Gatekeeper RPG.

There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

Well obviously, but, the black community, being made up off humans, should follow closely enough what other communities are interested in:

Everybody plays basketball with their friends no matter the race.

So, having ruled out race as a factor, we're left with culture, black american culture to be especific. So what in said culture makes it less likely than in any other X american culture to get involved in the hobby?

Besides the reasons the author of the video mentions I would also include money. The hobby IS expensive as fuck.

Yet we don't see ANY of the D.I.E. advocates funding the development of a less expensive/free game that can be played with cheaper dice and making available whatever other parafernalia is needed either for free or at cost for the poor communities.

Assuming the not fantasy thing is real, then they do have options, Cepheus engine for instance, so they need to fund the making of paper miniatures for free for those communities, go and give out free copies of the game to the people they manage to have sit and play a session.

But that would mean REALLY wanting to increase the "Muh Representashun!", hard work/money and probably loosing one lever to exert political power.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

More the problem is because the black community marks these black designer made games as "white". And bully others into not playing.

This has been a problem for a long time now and insinuated by prior iterations of the SJW cult.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

From what I've noticed; black people are passionate about sports, music, movies, eating good food, and chasing tail.  They love their automobiles, too.  RPGs must compete, for their time and interest.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 01:59:55 PM
...
Besides the reasons the author of the video mentions I would also include money. The hobby IS expensive as fuck.
...

Really only to the GM. And one could make the case that the cost is largely front loaded. As over time the gaming hours provided by 3 core books works out to be far less that if you were into model trains for example.

Players essentially play for free.

But I do agree that for some groups that front-loaded cost is relatively bigger than for others.

Quote from: Jam The MF on March 13, 2022, 03:29:50 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

From what I've noticed; black people are passionate about sports, music, movies, eating good food, and chasing tail.  They love their automobiles, too.  RPGs must compete, for their time and interest.

RPG's have always been a niche hobby, even within its predominant demographic, and it still is, D&D's recent success not withstanding. MtG still does twice D&D's numbers for WotC...

I think that RPG's hit at the right time to gain a foothold among the predominant population of the US.

For demographics where it failed to establish that foothold; It now has much more competition for people 's leisure time than it did in the past. In addition to cultural differences that can sway ones choices for leisure activities.

Ultimately "Not that many Black Americans play RPG's." comes down to: So what?

Someone considered a "minority" playing an RPG is just a thing that happens. It is not a virtue in and of itself.

Nor should it be. Because we have seen how it invariably gets pushed within the hobby by people with ulterior motives.

RPG's have always been #Inclusive. I have yet to hear of a single credible instance where someone was turned away from a gaming table due to their race, religion, sex, or orientation.

You just can't force a past-time on people who have largely already made other choices...

I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 01:00:20 PMI already said my peace in the video's comment section. But in a nutshell, 95% of blacks don't see a black role-model (TTRPG gamer) that they can then copy/join.

I think you've stumbled upon a problem that I've seen for a long time. RPGs are an entertainment product. No one should need a "role-model" in order to play an RPG, anymore than they need a role-model before they play Monopoly or Poker. All RPGs are written for an audience that already knows how an RPG works. Even so called intro box sets don't really explain the actual process of being a player nor of what a DM needs to do to run a successful and entertaining game.

As it stands now, people learn how to play RPGs by watching others play which is how so many bad ideas propagate.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:46:56 AM
Part of the problem is the idea that we somehow HAVE to get black people interested in RPGs, or that lack of interest in RPGs in the black American community is somehow reflective of RPGs themselves, as opposed to black American culture or personal preferences.

The video is made by a black guy who wants more black people to participate in his hobby. I can find no fault in that.

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo.

This amuses the hell out of me.

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Here in México the division is more of a class one, with certain hobbies being seen as rich ppl stuff, sometimes rightly so (model trains, WH40K among others come to mind). Which makes it possible to induct someone into a hobby IF a cheaper alternative is available.

Among the projects in my backburner is a cheap wargame, trying to have very little pages and to include paper minis. Just to see if the poorer kids are interested but unable to play, When I finish it my plan is to print a bunch of copies and go to poor neighborhoods/schools and donate them. Maybe around Christmass so they get a little something from Santa.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 08:56:05 PM

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Here in México the division is more of a class one, with certain hobbies being seen as rich ppl stuff, sometimes rightly so (model trains, WH40K among others come to mind). Which makes it possible to induct someone into a hobby IF a cheaper alternative is available.

Among the projects in my backburner is a cheap wargame, trying to have very little pages and to include paper minis. Just to see if the poorer kids are interested but unable to play, When I finish it my plan is to print a bunch of copies and go to poor neighborhoods/schools and donate them. Maybe around Christmass so they get a little something from Santa.

Well, it could have been that the Genesis was $99 and the SNES was $199. But that excuse seems almost a little racist to me, as realistic as it seems. There were definitely financial considerations. But Sega marketed their console to be as "cool" as possible. And black people only ever wanted to be "cool." If you weren't cool you were almost an outcast to them. Anything "badass" was cool, man, like Mortal Kombat. Or even Sonic the Hedgehog. I mean I liked Mortal Kombat too, but I was into Zelda and Final Fantasy. Nerd stuff. Black kids didn't like that. They almost universally wanted nothing to do with it, because it wasn't "cool." And that's where the racial lines got drawn.

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 09:03:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 08:56:05 PM

Quote from: Accaris on March 13, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
I grew up in south Georgia in 50% black schools and there's a big stigma among black people not to seem too white. That's why so many black kids had Sega Genesis instead of Super Nintendo. The Genesis had the best versions of Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and the SNES had nerdy white kid games in their eyes. Anything nerdy = white including D&D. This persists to this day 25 years later. Look at how many black players are in fighting game tournaments compared with say, real time strategy. Its a completely different demographic.

I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Here in México the division is more of a class one, with certain hobbies being seen as rich ppl stuff, sometimes rightly so (model trains, WH40K among others come to mind). Which makes it possible to induct someone into a hobby IF a cheaper alternative is available.

Among the projects in my backburner is a cheap wargame, trying to have very little pages and to include paper minis. Just to see if the poorer kids are interested but unable to play, When I finish it my plan is to print a bunch of copies and go to poor neighborhoods/schools and donate them. Maybe around Christmass so they get a little something from Santa.

Well, it could have been that the Genesis was $99 and the SNES was $199. But that excuse seems almost a little racist to me, as realistic as it seems. There were definitely financial considerations. But Sega marketed their console to be as "cool" as possible. And black people only ever wanted to be "cool." If you weren't cool you were almost an outcast to them. Anything "badass" was cool, man, like Mortal Kombat. Or even Sonic the Hedgehog. I mean I liked Mortal Kombat too, but I was into Zelda and Final Fantasy. Nerd stuff. Black kids didn't like that. They almost universally wanted nothing to do with it, because it wasn't "cool." And that's where the racial lines got drawn.

Well, to be fair, up until recently (and how I wish we went back to the old days) NOBODY liked the nerd stuff, nobody but us nerds that is.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2022, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 01:59:55 PM
...
Besides the reasons the author of the video mentions I would also include money. The hobby IS expensive as fuck.
...

Really only to the GM. And one could make the case that the cost is largely front loaded. As over time the gaming hours provided by 3 core books works out to be far less that if you were into model trains for example.

Players essentially play for free.

But I do agree that for some groups that front-loaded cost is relatively bigger than for others.

Quote from: Jam The MF on March 13, 2022, 03:29:50 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2022, 01:28:38 PM
There are black game designers and their products have not made much of a dent in the black community as far as I can tell. Perhaps the black community has other interests.

From what I've noticed; black people are passionate about sports, music, movies, eating good food, and chasing tail.  They love their automobiles, too.  RPGs must compete, for their time and interest.

RPG's have always been a niche hobby, even within its predominant demographic, and it still is, D&D's recent success not withstanding. MtG still does twice D&D's numbers for WotC...

I think that RPG's hit at the right time to gain a foothold among the predominant population of the US.

For demographics where it failed to establish that foothold; It now has much more competition for people 's leisure time than it did in the past. In addition to cultural differences that can sway ones choices for leisure activities.

Ultimately "Not that many Black Americans play RPG's." comes down to: So what?

Someone considered a "minority" playing an RPG is just a thing that happens. It is not a virtue in and of itself.

Nor should it be. Because we have seen how it invariably gets pushed within the hobby by people with ulterior motives.

RPG's have always been #Inclusive. I have yet to hear of a single credible instance where someone was turned away from a gaming table due to their race, religion, sex, or orientation.

You just can't force a past-time on people who have largely already made other choices...

I don't think you understand why I am sympathetic in this particular situation; sure, we can't force roleplaying on blacks, but I also lament the struggles specifically black players who want to roleplay have. I have enough trouble finding a group. It would be flat out impossible if I were black living in a historically black area. And soft apartheid exists everywhere.

That said, I discard the premise that RPGs are an expensive hobby outright; D&D is expensive because it expects you to buy a dozen books before playing. Miniatures are also expensive because they require special equipment and storage considerations. Beyond that, only a few of the other top-name games in the industry are particularly expensive; there are dozens of good games out there which are something between dirt cheap and free, and some of the best campaigns I've been part of were in the 60% homebrew range, with some literally being 100% with custom core mechanics. The only mandatory cost is dice, and even that can be cheated a bit, as you can split a deck of cards up to emulate most polyhedral dice (with the exception of a D20 unless you mark cards).

The Savage Worlds core rulebook costs $10 as a PDF, and that's really all you need to play. Printing out the most used sections will cost you another $10, and you can get 5 sets of dice for another $10, so your total entry cost for one of the best generics in the industry is $30. That's really not much to ask.

D&D is expensive, and a few other systems are expensive. And of course being a collector with a big game library is expensive. But otherwise...RPGs are really bloody cheap to play.

Oh Bullshit - I call bullshit on this.

When the Game Store was still pen we had plenty of black customers browsing and buying both tabletop RPGs and comic books.
For a while I believe there was one Pathfinder group that ALL African American, wait I think they had one white guy playing.

Heck, I remember one time browsing a video game magazine for illustrations to use in my GURPS Traveller game. Two youngish black guys near me asked what I was talking about. I told them it was sc fi roleplaying game. One of them said "OH like Dungeons and Dragons." I said yes and the other guy wondered why they stopped playing . Reason? -they had trouble getting their group together often enough.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on March 13, 2022, 10:37:56 PM
Oh Bullshit - I call bullshit on this.

When the Game Store was still pen we had plenty of black customers browsing and buying both tabletop RPGs and comic books.
For a while I believe there was one Pathfinder group that ALL African American, wait I think they had one white guy playing.

Heck, I remember one time browsing a video game magazine for illustrations to use in my GURPS Traveller game. Two youngish black guys near me asked what I was talking about. I told them it was sc fi roleplaying game. One of them said "OH like Dungeons and Dragons." I said yes and the other guy wondered why they stopped playing . Reason? -they had trouble getting their group together often enough.

- Ed C.

"My anecdotal experience trumps the anecdotal experience of everybody else" Koltar 2022

I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media-library-service-media/f0c9bc26-f46c-43d6-8d0b-bebeb2326c4d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media-library-service-media/f0c9bc26-f46c-43d6-8d0b-bebeb2326c4d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)

A "Basic" fully compatible version of D&D 5E has been available as a free PDF from WotC since 5E was released.

https://dnd.wizards.com/what-is-dnd/basic-rules

Culture.

Also who cares.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media-library-service-media/f0c9bc26-f46c-43d6-8d0b-bebeb2326c4d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media-library-service-media/f0c9bc26-f46c-43d6-8d0b-bebeb2326c4d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

You're kidding, right? A man-bites-dog report from a local TV station from five years ago? Please tell me you're kidding.

After watching your linked video, I think that both you and that TV station are jumping at shadows now. From the video, it looks like only a single black female complained about the display - just one! It must have been a slow news day at the newsroom to make this even a story! The con committee for TrainFest or whatever sounds like a bunch of spineless nitwits to let this scare them.

Again, this was five years ago!

Goddamn, I don't like woke bullshit any more than anybody else, but when we jump at shadows like this we become our own enemy because people won't take us seriously.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 14, 2022, 03:54:43 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media-library-service-media/f0c9bc26-f46c-43d6-8d0b-bebeb2326c4d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

You're kidding, right? A man-bites-dog report from a local TV station from five years ago? Please tell me you're kidding.

After watching your linked video, I think that both you and that TV station are jumping at shadows now. From the video, it looks like only a single black female complained about the display - just one! It must have been a slow news day at the newsroom to make this even a story! The con committee for TrainFest or whatever sounds like a bunch of spineless nitwits to let this scare them.

Again, this was five years ago!

Goddamn, I don't like woke bullshit any more than anybody else, but when we jump at shadows like this we become our own enemy because people won't take us seriously.

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 14, 2022, 03:54:43 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media-library-service-media/f0c9bc26-f46c-43d6-8d0b-bebeb2326c4d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

You're kidding, right? A man-bites-dog report from a local TV station from five years ago? Please tell me you're kidding.

After watching your linked video, I think that both you and that TV station are jumping at shadows now. From the video, it looks like only a single black female complained about the display - just one! It must have been a slow news day at the newsroom to make this even a story! The con committee for TrainFest or whatever sounds like a bunch of spineless nitwits to let this scare them.

Again, this was five years ago!

Goddamn, I don't like woke bullshit any more than anybody else, but when we jump at shadows like this we become our own enemy because people won't take us seriously.

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

You've lost your sense of perspective.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 13, 2022, 07:06:09 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:46:56 AM
Part of the problem is the idea that we somehow HAVE to get black people interested in RPGs, or that lack of interest in RPGs in the black American community is somehow reflective of RPGs themselves, as opposed to black American culture or personal preferences.

The video is made by a black guy who wants more black people to participate in his hobby. I can find no fault in that.

I wasn't so much replying to the video per, but going off something jhkim said in the previous post and the apparent implication we have to make this happen somehow. Like I tried to illustrate in the rest of my post, sometimes people have different interests, even if they've played RPGs before.

When the media calls the members of a hobby racist because not enough black folks are involved, is that more or less likely to encourage black folks to check it out and give it a try? My gut says less likely.

The same for settings that are deemed racist because some virtue signaling fool tying to make a name for himself says they aren't historically accurate (when they were they intended to be) and the media doesn't care enough to get a second opinion because its too juicy to resist.

From a cultural perspective, I would actually be more interested in knowing why so few Asians play TTRPGs. By Asians I mean people in Asia, not Asian-Americans or whatnot. This is not just the case in East Asia, but even more so in India and the Middle East, even though there's already a large middle class in those regions. RPG video games are played the world over, but TTRPGs are still very much concentrated in North America and Western Europe. Here in Germany, all of the TTRPG players I have ever come across are white (even at conventions). Moreover, none of them are Muslim, despite the fact that Germany has a large Muslim minority (mostly Turks and Arabs).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 03:46:47 AM
Confirmation bias and all but listen to the video and discuss.

Thanks for the video. It was interesting. I generally don't think about things along racial lines, so it made me think. In the last 30 years I have played with one black person. Our group is not very evangelical since we have almost maxed out in players. She was a co-worker of the GM who expressed an interest when he was describing TTRPGs. All the rest of us were guys, mostly white, but we also had some hispanics and asians who would come and go as they wanted (but in fairness they didn't seem all that interested). She was welcomed into the group, but showed no interest in what was going on. She was on her phone all the time playing some game, shopping, sending and receiving text messages, and when it came to her turn she never knew what was going on. Each round we had to give her a review of what had just happened. It was incredibly irritating. I don't think we would have kept her as long as we did if she hadn't been black, and we were not all bending over backwards to not be 'racist'. To make matters worse when she wasn't ignoring the game on her phone, she was saying some incredibly insulting racial and political comments -- we try to avoid politics when we are gaming. We are there for the game. I really don't know why she was there -- usually people who don't like RPGs or just don't like us for one reason or another move on after a few sessions. I started thinking she was only there to insult and irritate us. Eventually all the other players started complaining and she was kicked out of the group.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 14, 2022, 08:54:37 AM
When the media calls the members of a hobby racist because not enough black folks are involved, is that more or less likely to encourage black folks to check it out and give it a try? My gut says less likely.

The same for settings that are deemed racist because some virtue signaling fool tying to make a name for himself says they aren't historically accurate (when they were they intended to be) and the media doesn't care enough to get a second opinion because its too juicy to resist.

Agreed, the same when they call hobby/setting/game X sexist and invent horror stories or play out a single outlier as if it was representative of the whole.

That's not going to encourage women to come check it out.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 14, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
From a cultural perspective, I would actually be more interested in knowing why so few Asians play TTRPGs. By Asians I mean people in Asia, not Asian-Americans or whatnot. This is not just the case in East Asia, but even more so in India and the Middle East, even though there's already a large middle class in those regions. RPG video games are played the world over, but TTRPGs are still very much concentrated in North America and Western Europe. Here in Germany, all of the TTRPG players I have ever come across are white (even at conventions). Moreover, none of them are Muslim, despite the fact that Germany has a large Muslim minority (mostly Turks and Arabs).

I wouldn't expect Muslims to play TTRPGs due to their religion.

But IF true, that's a very interesting fact. It's not like India (for instance) lacks nerds, so why is that so?

Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 11:54:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 03:46:47 AM
Confirmation bias and all but listen to the video and discuss.

Thanks for the video. It was interesting. I generally don't think about things along racial lines, so it made me think. In the last 30 years I have played with one black person. Our group is not very evangelical since we have almost maxed out in players. She was a co-worker of the GM who expressed an interest when he was describing TTRPGs. All the rest of us were guys, mostly white, but we also had some hispanics and asians who would come and go as they wanted (but in fairness they didn't seem all that interested). She was welcomed into the group, but showed no interest in what was going on. She was on her phone all the time playing some game, shopping, sending and receiving text messages, and when it came to her turn she never knew what was going on. Each round we had to give her a review of what had just happened. It was incredibly irritating. I don't think we would have kept her as long as we did if she hadn't been black, and we were not all bending over backwards to not be 'racist'. To make matters worse when she wasn't ignoring the game on her phone, she was saying some incredibly insulting racial and political comments -- we try to avoid politics when we are gaming. We are there for the game. I really don't know why she was there -- usually people who don't like RPGs or just don't like us for one reason or another move on after a few sessions. I started thinking she was only there to insult and irritate us. Eventually all the other players started complaining and she was kicked out of the group.

IMHO it WAS racist off the GM not to tell her from minute one that she was being rude, I imagine that would be the case with any one not a woman and black.

In my table all are treated the same IDGAF what your sex/color/sexuality/religion/etc is. YOU will respect the table, the GM and the other players or you'll get a talking to, if the attitude persist then you're not a good fit and will be kicked out.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 14, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
From a cultural perspective, I would actually be more interested in knowing why so few Asians play TTRPGs. By Asians I mean people in Asia, not Asian-Americans or whatnot. This is not just the case in East Asia, but even more so in India and the Middle East, even though there's already a large middle class in those regions. RPG video games are played the world over, but TTRPGs are still very much concentrated in North America and Western Europe. Here in Germany, all of the TTRPG players I have ever come across are white (even at conventions). Moreover, none of them are Muslim, despite the fact that Germany has a large Muslim minority (mostly Turks and Arabs).

It would seem that TTRPGs are even more narrow than just 'white people'. Most white people have no more interest than black people or other minorities. Within that narrow range, mostly white people, it is limited even more to geeks. I guess geeks in other regions have other things to amuse them?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:51:58 PM

IMHO it WAS racist off the GM not to tell her from minute one that she was being rude, I imagine that would be the case with any one not a woman and black.

In my table all are treated the same IDGAF what your sex/color/sexuality/religion/etc is. YOU will respect the table, the GM and the other players or you'll get a talking to, if the attitude persist then you're not a good fit and will be kicked out.

In hindsight you are correct. but at the time we were all so afraid of being called an 'ist' or a 'phobe' that we were bending over backwards to be nice when she was making no effort whatsoever to be nice to us. I hope if this happens again we shut down the bad behavior immediately regardless of 'identity'.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 08:56:05 PM
I knew of this issue long before ever seeing the video, (which is why I talked about confirmation biases) and for the life of me I can't wrap my head around the idea that some hobby can be "white" or whatever other race you care to mention.

Why? Because it then creates a division and antagonism. It also keeps the masses stupid and malleable which is the other big thing with black "culture". "Being smart is White!". And its easier to make up excuses for racism and eventually violence.

This is the same for any group that gets singled out for hatred.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

The core game of D&D, long as you hit the bargains, is relatively cheap. I've gotten all my 5e books straight from WOTC for around 35$ eash. Sure thats about 105$ for the core three. But alot of board games are now cranking close to that if not more if you add in expansions. The new Arkham Horror cost me 65$ of dissapointment. retail is 85$. And each expansion would have added 160$ more. Not counting 10$ for any add-on dice sets. Thats at more than twice the cost of the bargain 5e core 3 and still 100$ more than the retail.

Cost is a barrier for anyone though. Some people can toss around cash like that. I splurged on one game I really liked several years ago. And have spent a fair amount total on 5e. But thats spread over years now.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 14, 2022, 05:27:28 AM

You've lost your sense of perspective.

I have to disagree here. Iften all it takes really is just one complaint. That and a company really too spineless to stand up to them. As I've noted before. Way back they tried this stunt with one of Asimov's magazines and he very un-politely told them to take a hike. TSR and WOTC on the other hand caved in. Sure they sprang back later. But they bent knee to these moral busybodies and the outrage brigade and the impact of that we still feel in small ways decades later.

I believe the why of this problem of one complainer being a big threat is the snowflake and avalance factor. All it takes is one snowflake landing just right to get all the others moving.

On the flip side though I very agree people here and elsewhere do indeed sometimes jump the gun and assume that just because something has some hints of the cult it must be of the cult. Unfortunately thats because every time we do not raise hell they somehow gain another foothold. Remember way back when this current wave was just starting. People here and elsewhere said to just ignore them and they would wither and fail.

That sure worked out just dandy didnt it? Just like it worked the iteration before, and the one before that and probably the ones I've mercifully missed.

But yeah people. Please take the time to stop, look, and listen before jumping in gunz-a-blazin.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 13, 2022, 10:00:37 PM
I don't think you understand why I am sympathetic in this particular situation; sure, we can't force roleplaying on blacks, but I also lament the struggles specifically black players who want to roleplay have. I have enough trouble finding a group. It would be flat out impossible if I were black living in a historically black area. And soft apartheid exists everywhere.

The soft apartheid in this instance is culturally self-inflicted. It is not something being imposed on the Black community by an outside culture.

I am sympathetic too. I think it would be great for more people in general to play RPG's.

But we can't change peoples culture for them.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 13, 2022, 10:00:37 PM
D&D is expensive, and a few other systems are expensive. And of course being a collector with a big game library is expensive. But otherwise...RPGs are really bloody cheap to play.

Yet D&D is the RPG most are likely to come across first.

It sets the tone for better or worse for most peoples experiences in the hobby.

It is what it is.

Quote from: Koltar on March 13, 2022, 10:37:56 PM
Oh Bullshit - I call bullshit on this.

When the Game Store was still pen we had plenty of black customers browsing and buying both tabletop RPGs and comic books.
For a while I believe there was one Pathfinder group that ALL African American, wait I think they had one white guy playing.

Heck, I remember one time browsing a video game magazine for illustrations to use in my GURPS Traveller game. Two youngish black guys near me asked what I was talking about. I told them it was sc fi roleplaying game. One of them said "OH like Dungeons and Dragons." I said yes and the other guy wondered why they stopped playing . Reason? -they had trouble getting their group together often enough.
...

Things vary by region, but exceptions do not invalidate the general trend.

Most of us who have been to various Cons throughout the years know via our lying eyes that in general Black Americans are a minority in RPG land.

Just like we know that female gamers are still a minority of the player base. Roughly around 1/3 or so.

In My Sunday group 3 out of 4 players are female. Basically the reverse demo of most RPG groups out there.

Does that make the general trend for female players BS?

No. It just means that my group is an outlier.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 14, 2022, 02:25:14 PM
Just like we know that female gamers are still a minority of the player base. Roughly around 1/3 or so.

In My Sunday group 3 out of 4 players are female. Basically the reverse demo of most RPG groups out there.

Does that make the general trend for female players BS?

No. It just means that my group is an outlier.

Well I for one am beginning to wonder about this. Whence this "knowledge" about the percentage of the female player base? WoTC surveys or something? Because it seems like anyone who brings it up (since about 1990) has a different demographic at their table.

Quote from: Zalman on March 14, 2022, 07:03:04 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on March 14, 2022, 02:25:14 PM
Just like we know that female gamers are still a minority of the player base. Roughly around 1/3 or so.

In My Sunday group 3 out of 4 players are female. Basically the reverse demo of most RPG groups out there.

Does that make the general trend for female players BS?

No. It just means that my group is an outlier.

Well I for one am beginning to wonder about this. Whence this "knowledge" about the percentage of the female player base? WoTC surveys or something? Because it seems like anyone who brings it up (since about 1990) has a different demographic at their table.

Thats because there IS a different demographic at every table.
But the SJWs love to cry that EVERY table needs to collect one of every whatever they are championing this time. Usually LGBT and Women, and their pet minority, and oh one of those cripples.

Every time. Homogenize everything. But then next iteration start screaming again that everyones Wacist and we have to fix this problem and get more XYZ into everything because gotta catch em all.

I saw this video a few weeks back and commented on it. I thought it was a fantastic video

Why does it matter?

Geeky is both right and wrong, in a sense.

He's wrong because D&D's shift didn't occur in a vacuum. It wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those). Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself :P). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AM
Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

D&D has certainly been affected by the zeitgeist, but I think it's often overstated how much. I've played D&D at conventions since I was a teenager in the 1980s, and I still play and run D&D 5e at local conventions now. There has been some gradual shift in style, but it's not that different. It's still going around and killing evil monsters in primarily Tolkienesque settings.

Claims about "now monsters aren't evil" are like the claims that now the combat wheelchair is official and all published dungeons are wheelchair accessible. There is virtually no sign of this in the published gaming material.

As an aside about demographics:

Quote from: Zalman on March 14, 2022, 07:03:04 PM
Well I for one am beginning to wonder about this. Whence this "knowledge" about the percentage of the female player base? WoTC surveys or something? Because it seems like anyone who brings it up (since about 1990) has a different demographic at their table.

Individual tables definitely vary, as does participation at different conventions from year to year - but there is still some reasonable projections. The 1999 WotC survey is the most accurate snapshot of gamers, but its numbers roughly fit with other measures. Dragon magazine has had readership surveys, for example - which was discussed in Gary Alan Fine's 1983 book "Shared Fantasy" that looked at the demographics of players.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/395345.Shared_Fantasy

I put together some sources here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/demographics.html

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

*big pic snipped*

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 15, 2022, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

*big pic snipped*

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

Oh, for fuck's sake! I thought you were better than this!

HOW IN THE GODDAMN FLYING FUCK DO WE KNOW THAT THOSE PIECES WEREN'T DELIBERATELY MOVED FROM THEIR ORIGINAL POSITIONS INTO THOSE POSITIONS IN ORDER TO CREATE A CONTROVERSY AND GET MORE PEOPLE TO ATTEND THE MODEL TRAIN CONVENTION?!?

This entire forum is starting to look like it has jumped the shark.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 15, 2022, 05:06:41 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 15, 2022, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

*big pic snipped*

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest (https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest)

I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

Oh, for fuck's sake! I thought you were better than this!

HOW IN THE GODDAMN FLYING FUCK DO WE KNOW THAT THOSE PIECES WEREN'T DELIBERATELY MOVED FROM THEIR ORIGINAL POSITIONS INTO THOSE POSITIONS IN ORDER TO CREATE A CONTROVERSY AND GET MORE PEOPLE TO ATTEND THE MODEL TRAIN CONVENTION?!?

This entire forum is starting to look like it has jumped the shark.

Moved by who? If you watched the video, they had a deliberate setup with flashing lights on the cop car. Are you suggesting the diorama creators, or the staff, or a passer-by rearranged things?
What were there supposed original positions? If we're making blind guesses, maybe martians did it in order to create racial dissent before their invasion...

It was dumb and it was tacky. If it's the best example of SJW influence, I think the model train hobbyists can rest easy.

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 15, 2022, 05:00:35 PM
I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

You know whats really funny/pathetic.

The "problematic" diorama bit was likely supporting the very people that bitched.

Remember. this cult always turns on eachother because they can just hallucinate anything as offensive or racist.

But late to this vid but he makes some solid points. I like his common-sense approach.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

How do you post when you clearly can't read?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 09:45:43 PM
I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

I saw this video when it dropped, and I had some fun discussions with my LA crew about it, mainly because it mirrors a lot of our experiences. Half of my LA crew were black, and let's stipulate, LA isn't the rest of America let alone the rest of the world as it pertains to the hobby. BUT we knew our group was odd in its makeup. Literally we had *one* guy that white.

But we were *all* in on the hobby. Still are. When we'd go to conventions, even back then, our group was noticeable - mainly because while we engaged in the hobby deeply, in our private lives we weren't "nerds" - we didn't dress or talk like most of the gaming public back then, and yeah we all chuckled at the fact that for a small minority of those there - we were off-putting, not because we were a bunch of non-whites, per se, but because we were loud, and played aggressively, and our tables sounded a LOT different than other tables. To the *majority* of those cons, we would attract crowds and people liked the energy. Do I know that people were merely curious about the racial makeup of the table? Maybe. But no one would likely have noticed us had we not been socially different *in general*.

The reality is we attracted WAY more people and met way more people than we drove away. Made a lot of friends along the way. But it was never a thing where my black players felt ostracized or even tokenized by the hobby though they knew fully well the vast majority of the hobby was white. It simply never was a thing.

At our table - it was never a thing. I had one player that would always play "black" characters - but never out of context with our setting. If he wanted to play a black human, he'd ask - "Any black cultures here?" If there was we'd come up with a background to justify whatever class he wanted to play, and no big deal. And if there wasn't some explicit culture there, I often just made it up from some location on the map appropriate. If not, then he'd move on to his next concept, if the game was themed in such a way that being a black character wasn't appropriate (like an all-Elf campaign or something). He never asked to make a Black Elf, or something weird like that. Because context was important to them. My other black and hispanic players played whatever the hell they wanted - white, asian, hispanic characters - non-human, but always contextual to whatever our setting and campaign focused on. Because we were all in on the game - not extraneous shit.

Edit: and among our other non-gaming black friends - gaming was WEIRD. Just like it's weird among my Asian relatives.

Anyhow - it's a good video. And I love his channel. C'mon man he covers tons of Gamma World (anything not-D&D) how cool is that?

Quote from: tenbones on March 16, 2022, 11:06:22 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 09:45:43 PM
I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

I saw this video when it dropped, and I had some fun discussions with my LA crew about it, mainly because it mirrors a lot of our experiences. Half of my LA crew were black, and let's stipulate, LA isn't the rest of America let alone the rest of the world as it pertains to the hobby. BUT we knew our group was odd in its makeup. Literally we had *one* guy that white.

But we were *all* in on the hobby. Still are. When we'd go to conventions, even back then, our group was noticeable - mainly because while we engaged in the hobby deeply, in our private lives we weren't "nerds" - we didn't dress or talk like most of the gaming public back then, and yeah we all chuckled at the fact that for a small minority of those there - we were off-putting, not because we were a bunch of non-whites, per se, but because we were loud, and played aggressively, and our tables sounded a LOT different than other tables. To the *majority* of those cons, we would attract crowds and people liked the energy. Do I know that people were merely curious about the racial makeup of the table? Maybe. But no one would likely have noticed us had we not been socially different *in general*.

The reality is we attracted WAY more people and met way more people than we drove away. Made a lot of friends along the way. But it was never a thing where my black players felt ostracized or even tokenized by the hobby though they knew fully well the vast majority of the hobby was white. It simply never was a thing.

At our table - it was never a thing. I had one player that would always play "black" characters - but never out of context with our setting. If he wanted to play a black human, he'd ask - "Any black cultures here?" If there was we'd come up with a background to justify whatever class he wanted to play, and no big deal. And if there wasn't some explicit culture there, I often just made it up from some location on the map appropriate. If not, then he'd move on to his next concept, if the game was themed in such a way that being a black character wasn't appropriate (like an all-Elf campaign or something). He never asked to make a Black Elf, or something weird like that. Because context was important to them. My other black and hispanic players played whatever the hell they wanted - white, asian, hispanic characters - non-human, but always contextual to whatever our setting and campaign focused on. Because we were all in on the game - not extraneous shit.

Anyhow - it's a good video. And I love his channel. C'mon man he covers tons of Gamma World (anything not-D&D) how cool is that?

This may sound slightly bizarre but it's the same problem with idpol slithering into the military. It used to be nobody cared what color you were -- the only color that mattered was the uniform.

Same with RPGs. Nobody gives a shit, just roll the dice. And clearly, while the aforementioned black player had a comfort zone, it wasn't a dealbreaker and he was willing to work within the system. And that's okay.

Nowadays it's all about muh representation and obsessing over needing 'diverse voices'.

That representation, ironically, is mostly screeched about by liberal white players.

These same people that *don't* support settings that aren't Eurocentric, or mini-settings within Eurocentric brands.

To me this is a GM outreach issue. The games aren't going to sell themselves without GM's advocating and growing the interest in *any* setting with players.

Quote from: tenbones on March 16, 2022, 11:06:22 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 09:45:43 PM
I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

I saw this video when it dropped, and I had some fun discussions with my LA crew about it, mainly because it mirrors a lot of our experiences. Half of my LA crew were black, and let's stipulate, LA isn't the rest of America let alone the rest of the world as it pertains to the hobby. BUT we knew our group was odd in its makeup. Literally we had *one* guy that white.

But we were *all* in on the hobby. Still are. When we'd go to conventions, even back then, our group was noticeable - mainly because while we engaged in the hobby deeply, in our private lives we weren't "nerds" - we didn't dress or talk like most of the gaming public back then, and yeah we all chuckled at the fact that for a small minority of those there - we were off-putting, not because we were a bunch of non-whites, per se, but because we were loud, and played aggressively, and our tables sounded a LOT different than other tables. To the *majority* of those cons, we would attract crowds and people liked the energy. Do I know that people were merely curious about the racial makeup of the table? Maybe. But no one would likely have noticed us had we not been socially different *in general*.

The reality is we attracted WAY more people and met way more people than we drove away. Made a lot of friends along the way. But it was never a thing where my black players felt ostracized or even tokenized by the hobby though they knew fully well the vast majority of the hobby was white. It simply never was a thing.

At our table - it was never a thing. I had one player that would always play "black" characters - but never out of context with our setting. If he wanted to play a black human, he'd ask - "Any black cultures here?" If there was we'd come up with a background to justify whatever class he wanted to play, and no big deal. And if there wasn't some explicit culture there, I often just made it up from some location on the map appropriate. If not, then he'd move on to his next concept, if the game was themed in such a way that being a black character wasn't appropriate (like an all-Elf campaign or something). He never asked to make a Black Elf, or something weird like that. Because context was important to them. My other black and hispanic players played whatever the hell they wanted - white, asian, hispanic characters - non-human, but always contextual to whatever our setting and campaign focused on. Because we were all in on the game - not extraneous shit.

Edit: and among our other non-gaming black friends - gaming was WEIRD. Just like it's weird among my Asian relatives.

Anyhow - it's a good video. And I love his channel. C'mon man he covers tons of Gamma World (anything not-D&D) how cool is that?

That matches my own experience as well to some degree. A lot of my mates were into hardcore punk and they thought RPGs were for complete dweebs and considered themselves far 'too cool' for all that lark, a bit like what that guy was saying in the vid. Some people or groups just frowned upon it, and we all just accepted that. But I just didn't care I just wanted to game and didn't care who it was with as long as they were nice people.

In Ireland, during the 1980s we were very insular. So all my RPG mates were white but all from varying backgrounds. Although, I was also playing with a few Americans at the time. That changed when I went to art college in the UK. We had a huge array of players it was great: Iranian, greek, black, white, English, Irish. But as you said, mate, no one gave it a second thought. It was always just about having fun and gaming.

Gaming context is a huge thing for me... A concept that the woke scolds can't fathom and really hate to deal with. I'd be more than happy to play a person from another culture given the game's contextual setting. I mean, I don't want to play in an African setting as a bone white Irish guy. Or play in Sinbad's Arabia as a Celtic maiden. I just want to be part and true of the setting.

But when you say, for example, this is a Viking setting so there are no 'indigenous' people of colour, they cry waaacist. But yet, they won't hold you to the same standard if you wanted to play a 'white dude' in a non-white setting (not that you would).

It's boils down to double standards without understanding.

Quote from: tenbones on March 16, 2022, 02:53:54 PM
That representation, ironically, is mostly screeched about by liberal white players.

Indeed... All those twitter white knights. lol

How the hell did 'chainmail bikini' art get thrown into a discussion abut why there aren't more Black gamers?

Just wondering....,

-Ed C.

Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

Could be due to Seelah, the example paladin in PF. Need more data though.

If more blacks ain't playing hey here's an idea- because more don't want to.

For crying out loud computers are cheap if you get them at ebay and the internet has LOADS of PDF dnd stuff for downloading FREE. Paper is cheap. Graph paper is cheap. Some black guys want to play nothing in the world is stopping them.

But dnd was always a geek white boy loser thing to most people. That's one group it's okay to make fun of.

The way things are going the 8% going to have cameras in every house to make sure there's enough damn "diversity". Knowing the 92% they'll pay for them and dust the lenses. GAH!

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 16, 2022, 08:03:44 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

How do you post when you clearly can't read?

Because you want the censorship of something, while claiming that you llike that same thing? Perhaps you can not read what you have written yourself? You use all the typical moral guardian tricks. Then are surprised when you get called out on it?

Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 14, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
From a cultural perspective, I would actually be more interested in knowing why so few Asians play TTRPGs. By Asians I mean people in Asia, not Asian-Americans or whatnot. This is not just the case in East Asia, but even more so in India and the Middle East, even though there's already a large middle class in those regions. RPG video games are played the world over, but TTRPGs are still very much concentrated in North America and Western Europe. Here in Germany, all of the TTRPG players I have ever come across are white (even at conventions). Moreover, none of them are Muslim, despite the fact that Germany has a large Muslim minority (mostly Turks and Arabs).

There are a lot, actually. Call of Cthulhu is hot in Japan, and in Malaysia, there have been a lot of hobby stores popping up. Less relevant, but in Bangkok there is a wargaming scene too.

Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 12:56:08 PM
It would seem that TTRPGs are even more narrow than just 'white people'. Most white people have no more interest than black people or other minorities. Within that narrow range, mostly white people, it is limited even more to geeks. I guess geeks in other regions have other things to amuse them?

I've played D&D with a fair number of black and South Asian players in London. Everyone tends to be pretty nerdy/geeky, of course! Worldwide I think RPGs tend to appeal most to Europeans, perhaps especially North Europeans (the weather encourages indoor pursuits), and to a lesser extent north-east-Asians, notably Japan, the geekiest country in the world.  ;D

Quote from: Omega on March 17, 2022, 07:52:39 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 16, 2022, 08:03:44 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

How do you post when you clearly can't read?

Because you want the censorship of something, while claiming that you llike that same thing? Perhaps you can not read what you have written yourself? You use all the typical moral guardian tricks. Then are surprised when you get called out on it?

Let me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 08:33:21 AMLet me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

No one's claiming otherwise (at least I didn't see any claims that bikini chainmails were realistic in Omega's posts). Plus I already preemptively addressed the point about "realism" when this side argument started several pages ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself :P). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 18, 2022, 09:26:29 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 08:33:21 AMLet me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

No one's claiming otherwise (at least I didn't see any claims that bikini chainmails were realistic in Omega's posts). Plus I already preemptively addressed the point about "realism" when this side argument started several pages ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself :P). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Use the full quote.

QuoteGeeky is both right and wrong, in a sense.

He's wrong because D&D's shift didn't occur in a vacuum. It wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those). Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

The point I was making was that (a) the shifts didn't occur in a vacuum, (b) chainmail bikinis are silly, but I wasn't calling for censorship -- only to point out there were good arguments against them, and that (c) the issue is deeper than 'OMG SJWs attack!'.

But Omega is a thirsty fuck who immediately jumped on the 'YOU CENSORIOUS PRUDE' wagon, because God forbid someone say 'Hey, this seems kind of absurd'.

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM


I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Yep, a lot of those types about.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Considering some of Pathfinder's content, that's a special kind of stupid on their part.

Greetings!

The whole argument about how terrible and sexist "Chainmail Bikinis" and otherwise sexy-looking, provocative women being portrayed in RPG artwork or in miniatures is fucking stupid. In the real world, of people I have actually known and gamed with--both male and females alike--have *always* enjoyed provocative and sexy women in RPG art and miniatures.

The only people I have ever heard voicing shrill objections and blubbering arguments against such things have been thirsty, simping male feminists or bloated hog-beast women feminists.

Of course, my perspective is "anecdotal"--and may seem "limited"--though I would argue that my perspective is based on living in the real world, talking with real people, and actually gaming for extended periods of times with such real gamers. The hate-filled critics that shriek about "Misogyny!" and "What about the children?!" and all of that bullshit seem to be isolated to "Letters to the Editor" sections, or now, online. These prudish, control-freak nutjobs are on the margins of the hobby, and are absolutely ridiculous. AND, I also suspect that a good portion of *them* may not actually be genuine gamers, but rather related family-members, hangers-on, and various other kinds of social gadflies always seeking to stir up controversy and also to draw attention to themselves.

Fuck them all.

I say we should always encourage provocative, sexy art, and the same with miniatures.

Let the social prudes and feminist nutjobs go play with Barney stuffed animals.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 18, 2022, 09:26:29 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 08:33:21 AMLet me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

No one's claiming otherwise (at least I didn't see any claims that bikini chainmails were realistic in Omega's posts). Plus I already preemptively addressed the point about "realism" when this side argument started several pages ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself :P). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Use the full quote.

QuoteGeeky is both right and wrong, in a sense.

He's wrong because D&D's shift didn't occur in a vacuum. It wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those). Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

The point I was making was that (a) the shifts didn't occur in a vacuum, (b) chainmail bikinis are silly, but I wasn't calling for censorship -- only to point out there were good arguments against them, and that (c) the issue is deeper than 'OMG SJWs attack!'.

But Omega is a thirsty fuck who immediately jumped on the 'YOU CENSORIOUS PRUDE' wagon, because God forbid someone say 'Hey, this seems kind of absurd'.

My point was: In D&D and the RPG hobby in general, the infestation didn't start with a hundred bluehaired lanwhales reeing about fatfobia, it started with said article about chainmail bikinis.

IDGAF about any "good and practical reasons to argue against those", because it's not about being practical it's about it being cool and yes, so teenage boys have something to look at. Nothing wrong with that or with bodicce ripper's covers.

Just like the article about model trains is just the start, or like the Femynids in WH40K didn't start with "WH40K is for everybody but".

A journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step.

Back then the Satanic Panic was the bigger social force and if you were against it you were a satan worshipping sinner, now a different moral panic has the force, and if you're against it then you're an istophobe.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 18, 2022, 07:07:46 PM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Considering some of Pathfinder's content, that's a special kind of stupid on their part.

Oh, granted. Pathfinder's the only setting I'm aware of that makes playing a devil-worshiper a serious option, and the Elohim monster (https://pathfinder.d20srd.org/bestiary4/elohim.html#elohim) has got to hold a record for how many religions it blasphemes.

The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 04:16:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Really?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

I don't really care about the whole Bikini thing in general. But I do care about the possible motivations for crying about it. That is to say if people are using it as an excuse to try and censor or moralize your game (or any game).

If you're doing it for 'realism' then that's legitimate. But if you're going all Tipper Gore then you can piss right off.

If you want to go down the whole 'but that's sexist' route then that's fine, as long as you also point the finger at women drooling over semi-naked male strippers at their hen nights and all the diet coke commercials.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2022, 09:24:20 AM
I don't really care about the whole Bikini thing in general. But I do care about the possible motivations for crying about it. That is to say if people are using it as an excuse to try and censor or moralize your game (or any game).

If you're doing it for 'realism' then that's legitimate. But if you're going all Tipper Gore then you can piss right off.

If you want to go down the whole 'but that's sexist' route then that's fine, as long as you also point the finger at women drooling over semi-naked male strippers at their hen nights and all the diet coke commercials.

As many people have pointed out many times, you don't even need to leave gaming to find examples of scantily clad male warriors. Likely, you don't even need to turn the page of the RPG book where you saw the chainmail bikini.

The point being, anyone arguing that chainmail bikinis are "sexist" is, ipso facto, already in Tipper Goreland.

Quote from: Zalman on March 19, 2022, 09:35:08 AMAs many people have pointed out many times, you don't even need to leave gaming to find examples of scantily clad male warriors.

Celtic warriors used to run naked into battle. That fact alone pretty much blows most the "realism" argument out of the water, unless you want to insist that only armor that provides proper covering provides protection in a game that's actually supposed to be realistic. If that last part is not the case, who cares?

I think he's right that a good part of it is cultural.

Lol I saw this many years ago. I got some amusement out of it, but there was also so much cringe. Whatever the race and for whatever reason, it just goes to show that RPGs isn't for everyone.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM
The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

Seems GeekyBugle never said it started the Satanic Panic, he said it happened during which is a different thing.

The chainmail bikini is an odd direction for this to have gone in, but I'll bite.

I don't think that true "chainmail bikinis" are realistic, but if you have women in combat in a high fantasy setting, there are legitimate reasons to think it would be lighter and more form-fitting. Women are a few inches shorter than men and have notably less physical strength, especially in the upper torso (on average). This absolutely does have implications for armor loadouts; they will want to shed weight wherever possible, and in 1-on-1 encounters, certain parts of the body are not actually targets.

The primary target zones for someone who is taller will be the head, shoulders, upper torso, and for the forward foot. The entire range from bottom of the chest to the knees is basically out of range, and only needs armor from stray hits. And this ignores the fact that corsets are dang close to being armor already, and most of the material said about cloaks can also be said of skirts.

So, while I haven't seen it done in any fantasy literature, I can totally imagine a woman in combat wearing a helmet, pauldrons, a corset. These are all form-fitting clothes which could be made very sexy and in history absolutely would have been. I can also see a woman who is caught more unawares pulling off her own skirt and using it as a shield or wrapping her head and shoulders with it for some padding protection. A heavy skirt on a quick release makes a lot of sense for cloak techniques, and when you take it off....well, let's just say that her ankles will definitely be visible.

So no, chainmail bikini isn't realistic. But it also isn't actually that far off the mark.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 20, 2022, 11:40:15 PM
The chainmail bikini is an odd direction for this to have gone in, but I'll bite.

I don't think that true "chainmail bikinis" are realistic, but if you have women in combat in a high fantasy setting, there are legitimate reasons to think it would be lighter and more form-fitting. Women are a few inches shorter than men and have notably less physical strength, especially in the upper torso (on average). This absolutely does have implications for armor loadouts; they will want to shed weight wherever possible, and in 1-on-1 encounters, certain parts of the body are not actually targets.

The primary target zones for someone who is taller will be the head, shoulders, upper torso, and for the forward foot. The entire range from bottom of the chest to the knees is basically out of range, and only needs armor from stray hits. And this ignores the fact that corsets are dang close to being armor already, and most of the material said about cloaks can also be said of skirts.

So, while I haven't seen it done in any fantasy literature, I can totally imagine a woman in combat wearing a helmet, pauldrons, a corset. These are all form-fitting clothes which could be made very sexy and in history absolutely would have been. I can also see a woman who is caught more unawares pulling off her own skirt and using it as a shield or wrapping her head and shoulders with it for some padding protection. A heavy skirt on a quick release makes a lot of sense for cloak techniques, and when you take it off....well, let's just say that her ankles will definitely be visible.

So no, chainmail bikini isn't realistic. But it also isn't actually that far off the mark.

Between sexy helmets & pauldrons and the idea of a woman ripping her skirt off to wrap it around her head when attacked, I can't take what you're saying seriously...are you trying to be funny?

   I laugh to myself with people acting as if Chainmail bikinis were some issue back in 1st edition D&D when you could open up the monster manual to the succubus entry, and likely see more female skin than you ever had (at least for me as a 3rd grader cracking that open) top and bottom.   I can not remember a chainmail bikini in much of the art back then, I remember a female with what looked to be a tight T shirt form of chainmail, but do not remember any bikinis and always thought of that as a Red Sonja thing.

WTF is going on in this thread?

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:19:49 AM
WTF is going on in this thread?

Fook knows!

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:19:49 AM
WTF is going on in this thread?

  The memory of seeing the Succubus's devil's triangle for the first time triggered by all this chainmail bikini talk caused me to jump in on the derail.  I did not really mesh with the video, or most of the commentary, since the first game I played in at school when I was a kid, was populated with 50 percent black guys(over 50, 4 black 3 white).  Granted we had zero girls of any flavor.

I know they exist, but I don't know a single guy or girl that was ever truly offended by the chainmail bikini.

I don't know of any black males or females that were offended by them either. The 80's puritanical sensibilities of yesteryear have been demolished by the liberal lunacy of today...

So I'm not sure why it's germane. The reality of black folks not playing TTRPG's is pretty straightforward, and it's not racism, or anything else, it's exposure.

Just like I could ask how many TTRPG players are deeply into specific sports, or tea-ceremony or whatever. It's lack of cultural touchpoints and in-group exposure that cause it. It's definitely changing... but you know... not everyone has to be INTO everything, or even like it.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:02:10 PM
I know they exist, but I don't know a single guy or girl that was ever truly offended by the chainmail bikini.

I don't know of any black males or females that were offended by them either. The 80's puritanical sensibilities of yesteryear have been demolished by the liberal lunacy of today...

So I'm not sure why it's germane. The reality of black folks not playing TTRPG's is pretty straightforward, and it's not racism, or anything else, it's exposure.

Just like I could ask how many TTRPG players are deeply into specific sports, or tea-ceremony or whatever. It's lack of cultural touchpoints and in-group exposure that cause it. It's definitely changing... but you know... not everyone has to be INTO everything, or even like it.

   Agree 100 percent.  I think part of the reason few black people could have been exposed to RPGs, at least in my day (school years in the 80's) is just demographic percentages.  Most of the southern states are proportionately much "blacker" than northern or western states.   This was also a big time strong hold of the bible belt in the 80's.  So there were not going to be many D&D games popping up in public spaces (like during down times at school) because they got shut down.  I know where I was we got shut down by every grade teacher I had throughout elementary and middle school at some point, and banned by the librarian in middle school as well.  All following good old Jack Chicks' spiel.  I have no idea what the climate was north or out west, I just know proportionately the opportunity for exposure would have been bigger in the Southern states, but white or black, you were getting shut down on the devil games in any space a concerned morality police person (usually an older white woman, but I did get the chance to get shut down by an couple of older black women as well, aka Karens) was able to catch you playing.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:19:49 AM
WTF is going on in this thread?

Tits, man, tits everywhere. Gotta cover em in 10 CM of steel or ELSE!

(especially those black tits! Double no-no! verboten!)

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 19, 2022, 09:48:53 AM

Quote from: Zalman on March 19, 2022, 09:35:08 AMAs many people have pointed out many times, you don't even need to leave gaming to find examples of scantily clad male warriors.

Celtic warriors used to run naked into battle. That fact alone pretty much blows most the "realism" argument out of the water, unless you want to insist that only armor that provides proper covering provides protection in a game that's actually supposed to be realistic. If that last part is not the case, who cares?

Any given martial arts show. Why arent they all weaing plate mail? This is UN-REAL-ISTICCCCCCC!

Only last year, one of the D&D YouTube channels in partnership with Wizards of the Coast did a short series of D&D with puppets. They had one black lady in the party, and she chose to play a very buxom dragonborn in boob plate armour. This caused a kerfuffle at the time among the usual suspects, to the point that they had to start putting a disclaimer at the start of the show reminding viewers that the players chose how their characters were represented.



Maybe if the prudes hadn't queered the pitch so early in D&D history they'd actually have a truly representative player base to pick from by now, and wouldn't have to resort to blatantly obvious diversity hiring to fill out all the reality TV D&D shows.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:19:49 AM
WTF is going on in this thread?

I tried to use some common sense on it and the thread promptly shoved itself up its own ass.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:19:49 AM
WTF is going on in this thread?

Standard clusterfuck, pull up a chair fam we're gonna make popcorn.

As far as black people playing RPG's, I must confess I don't think I've run across very many over the years. Though my area has a pretty strong showing of young black dudes playing MtG, Yugioh, the DBZ card game, and a handful of Warhammer players.

Quote from: mightybrain on March 21, 2022, 06:49:13 PM
Only last year, one of the D&D YouTube channels in partnership with Wizards of the Coast did a short series of D&D with puppets. They had one black lady in the party, and she chose to play a very buxom dragonborn in boob plate armour. This caused a kerfuffle at the time among the usual suspects, to the point that they had to start putting a disclaimer at the start of the show reminding viewers that the players chose how their characters were represented.

Maybe if the prudes hadn't queered the pitch so early in D&D history they'd actually have a truly representative player base to pick from by now, and wouldn't have to resort to blatantly obvious diversity hiring to fill out all the reality TV D&D shows.

Reminds me of my black female player's busty bare-breasted blonde Amazon Warrior PC. Everyone loved that PC.  ;D It was a Wilderlands of High Fantasy campaign.

Q: Why aren't more black Americans playing RPGs?
A: Not enough chainmail bikinis? Or too much coverage of the upper torso?  ???

Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2022, 02:17:17 AM

Quote from: mightybrain on March 21, 2022, 06:49:13 PM
Only last year, one of the D&D YouTube channels in partnership with Wizards of the Coast did a short series of D&D with puppets. They had one black lady in the party, and she chose to play a very buxom dragonborn in boob plate armour. This caused a kerfuffle at the time among the usual suspects, to the point that they had to start putting a disclaimer at the start of the show reminding viewers that the players chose how their characters were represented.

Maybe if the prudes hadn't queered the pitch so early in D&D history they'd actually have a truly representative player base to pick from by now, and wouldn't have to resort to blatantly obvious diversity hiring to fill out all the reality TV D&D shows.

Reminds me of my black female player's busty bare-breasted blonde Amazon Warrior PC. Everyone loved that PC.  ;D It was a Wilderlands of High Fantasy campaign.

Q: Why aren't more black Americans playing RPGs?
A: Not enough chainmail bikinis? Or too much coverage of the upper torso?  ???

A, Cont.: And also shaming them and putting up a disclaimer when invited to play and they create characters with those attributes.  ;)

Quote from: mightybrain on March 21, 2022, 06:49:13 PM
Only last year, one of the D&D YouTube channels in partnership with Wizards of the Coast did a short series of D&D with puppets. They had one black lady in the party, and she chose to play a very buxom dragonborn in boob plate armour. This caused a kerfuffle at the time among the usual suspects, to the point that they had to start putting a disclaimer at the start of the show reminding viewers that the players chose how their characters were represented.

Maybe if the prudes hadn't queered the pitch so early in D&D history they'd actually have a truly representative player base to pick from by now, and wouldn't have to resort to blatantly obvious diversity hiring to fill out all the reality TV D&D shows.

Thanks for posting that video.  I didn't even know the show existed.  I really don't like Critical Role and can't sit through a single episode but that was fun to watch.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 04:16:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Really?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Again, are you drunk, on heavy drugs, malicious or just plain stupid?

Please explain to the class exactly where do I say the chainmail bikini article started the satanic panic or was even remotelly connected to it except in a temporal form?

Dude I had you pegged as above average IQ. Now? I doubt you reach room temperature.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 04:16:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Really?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Again, are you drunk, on heavy drugs, malicious or just plain stupid?

Please explain to the class exactly where do I say the chainmail bikini article started the satanic panic or was even remotelly connected to it except in a temporal form?

Dude I had you pegged as above average IQ. Now? I doubt you reach room temperature.

I've already explained it to you in the post that you have quoted. Now go ahead and double down on your claim, it's fine by me.

Maybe I'm drunk, on drugs, malicious, AND stupid - as long as it helps you to sleep at night. Last time I looked, my IQ was 143, but seeing the spastic emotionalism of people declaring that the sky is falling by the "intelligentsia" makes me wonder if I wouldn't be happier having a room temperature IQ.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 06:18:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 04:16:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Really?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Again, are you drunk, on heavy drugs, malicious or just plain stupid?

Please explain to the class exactly where do I say the chainmail bikini article started the satanic panic or was even remotelly connected to it except in a temporal form?

Dude I had you pegged as above average IQ. Now? I doubt you reach room temperature.

I've already explained it to you in the post that you have quoted. Now go ahead and double down on your claim, it's fine by me.

Maybe I'm drunk, on drugs, malicious, AND stupid - as long as it helps you to sleep at night. Last time I looked, my IQ was 143, but seeing the spastic emotionalism of people declaring that the sky is falling by the "intelligentsia" makes me wonder if I wouldn't be happier having a room temperature IQ.

Let me put it clear, you might have forgotten what came first:

I said :

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Answering you in regards to your complaint that the train's article was JUST one article.

By the locusts I mean the feminists/SJWs/Commies.

I would have thought that was obvious, maybe your 143 IQ prevents you from understanding this.

I'm saying the D&D infestation by SJWs started way back then, during the Satanic Panic, emphasis in DURING, meaning it couldn't have caused/started it because it was published while the Satanic Panic was going on.

Are we clear so far? Something that happens while something else ALREADY STARTED can't be the starting point of what already has started, cause and effect.

But event X CAN take place WHILE event Y is occurring, and someone can use (and many do) event Y as a time frame reference, as a shortcut to saying this happened in that year, especially if one doesn't remember the exact moment in time bout event Y lasted long enough and event X did transpire WHILE event Y was occurring.

For instance person X married during the summer of love, person X getting married didn't cause the summer of love and only a moron would think so.

Then you said:

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

And my response was:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

So, once more, are you fucking drunk, using weapons grade drugs, malicious, stupid or just plain wrong because you didn't read carefully what I wrote?

Take a moment, use your 143 IQ and read carefully before answering this time.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 06:52:18 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 06:18:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 04:16:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Really?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Again, are you drunk, on heavy drugs, malicious or just plain stupid?

Please explain to the class exactly where do I say the chainmail bikini article started the satanic panic or was even remotelly connected to it except in a temporal form?

Dude I had you pegged as above average IQ. Now? I doubt you reach room temperature.

I've already explained it to you in the post that you have quoted. Now go ahead and double down on your claim, it's fine by me.

Maybe I'm drunk, on drugs, malicious, AND stupid - as long as it helps you to sleep at night. Last time I looked, my IQ was 143, but seeing the spastic emotionalism of people declaring that the sky is falling by the "intelligentsia" makes me wonder if I wouldn't be happier having a room temperature IQ.

Let me put it clear, you might have forgotten what came first:

I said :

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Answering you in regards to your complaint that the train's article was JUST one article.

By the locusts I mean the feminists/SJWs/Commies.

I would have thought that was obvious, maybe your 143 IQ prevents you from understanding this.

I'm saying the D&D infestation by SJWs started way back then, during the Satanic Panic, emphasis in DURING, meaning it couldn't have caused/started it because it was published while the Satanic Panic was going on.

Are we clear so far? Something that happens while something else ALREADY STARTED can't be the starting point of what already has started, cause and effect.

But event X CAN take place WHILE event Y is occurring, and someone can use (and many do) event Y as a time frame reference, as a shortcut to saying this happened in that year, especially if one doesn't remember the exact moment in time bout event Y lasted long enough and event X did transpire WHILE event Y was occurring.

For instance person X married during the summer of love, person X getting married didn't cause the summer of love and only a moron would think so.

Then you said:

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

And my response was:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

So, once more, are you fucking drunk, using weapons grade drugs, malicious, stupid or just plain wrong because you didn't read carefully what I wrote?

Take a moment, use your 143 IQ and read carefully before answering this time.

Nah. You have already lost any sense of perspective on this, so why should I bother?

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 07:25:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 06:52:18 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 06:18:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 04:16:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

Really?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Again, are you drunk, on heavy drugs, malicious or just plain stupid?

Please explain to the class exactly where do I say the chainmail bikini article started the satanic panic or was even remotelly connected to it except in a temporal form?

Dude I had you pegged as above average IQ. Now? I doubt you reach room temperature.

I've already explained it to you in the post that you have quoted. Now go ahead and double down on your claim, it's fine by me.

Maybe I'm drunk, on drugs, malicious, AND stupid - as long as it helps you to sleep at night. Last time I looked, my IQ was 143, but seeing the spastic emotionalism of people declaring that the sky is falling by the "intelligentsia" makes me wonder if I wouldn't be happier having a room temperature IQ.

Let me put it clear, you might have forgotten what came first:

I said :

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 04:36:56 AM

So you think the infestation starts with loads of locusts?

The locusts started working on D&D with just ONE Article on Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) about chainmail bikinis way back during the satanic panic.

You probably would scream it's just one article!

A single article, a single complaint and managed to change things. And that's how it ALWAYS starts.

Answering you in regards to your complaint that the train's article was JUST one article.

By the locusts I mean the feminists/SJWs/Commies.

I would have thought that was obvious, maybe your 143 IQ prevents you from understanding this.

I'm saying the D&D infestation by SJWs started way back then, during the Satanic Panic, emphasis in DURING, meaning it couldn't have caused/started it because it was published while the Satanic Panic was going on.

Are we clear so far? Something that happens while something else ALREADY STARTED can't be the starting point of what already has started, cause and effect.

But event X CAN take place WHILE event Y is occurring, and someone can use (and many do) event Y as a time frame reference, as a shortcut to saying this happened in that year, especially if one doesn't remember the exact moment in time bout event Y lasted long enough and event X did transpire WHILE event Y was occurring.

For instance person X married during the summer of love, person X getting married didn't cause the summer of love and only a moron would think so.

Then you said:

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:45:49 AM
The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

And my response was:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Are you fucking drunk?

NOBODY has said that.

So, once more, are you fucking drunk, using weapons grade drugs, malicious, stupid or just plain wrong because you didn't read carefully what I wrote?

Take a moment, use your 143 IQ and read carefully before answering this time.

Nah. You have already lost any sense of perspective on this, so why should I bother?

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Yeah, it's not the one denying reality and refusing to aknowledge they were wrong the one who lost perspective but me.

You're the one who comes out looking as mentally addled (by substances or something else). I still hope someday you can think and reflect and recognize YOU were wrong and putting words in my mouth.

Have a good day.

Stop arguing and fuck already, you two.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:14:28 PM
Stop arguing and fuck already, you two.

LOL he's not my type, way too "smart" for me.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:14:28 PM
Stop arguing and fuck already, you two.

We're LARPing a game of Thirsty Sword Lesbians in Western Womens Sports. I'm playing hard to get while we wait for GeekyBugles bloodwork to come back and confirm that he does not have venereal COVID.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 24, 2022, 12:52:26 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:14:28 PM
Stop arguing and fuck already, you two.

We're LARPing a game of Thirsty Sword Lesbians in Western Womens Sports. I'm playing hard to get while we wait for GeekyBugles bloodwork to come back and confirm that he does not have venereal COVID.

Won't lie that made me laugh out loud, I really needed it IRL stuff has been getting me down. So for that thanks. You're still wrong or lying about what I said tho.

Let's stop fucking dancing around the basic facts.

1) RPGs involve lots of reading of books.

2) Cultures which do not value reading and do not promote it among their children are cultures where RPGs (and other games involving the reading of many rules) will NOT be popular.

3) Not rocket science that RPGs were more popular with the honors class kids of all skin colors than among the short bus kids.

Want more blacks in RPGs? Great, go fix black culture's attitudes toward school, reading and intellectual achievements. But first google Chris Rock + books + kryptonite.

Have fun storming the ghetto castle...if you can get past the left's plantation gates.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 01:30:07 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 24, 2022, 12:52:26 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:14:28 PM
Stop arguing and fuck already, you two.

We're LARPing a game of Thirsty Sword Lesbians in Western Womens Sports. I'm playing hard to get while we wait for GeekyBugles bloodwork to come back and confirm that he does not have venereal COVID.

Won't lie that made me laugh out loud, I really needed it IRL stuff has been getting me down. So for that thanks. You're still wrong or lying about what I said tho.

I'm glad that I could make you smile. IRL stuff is getting me stressed as well.

Now, I still think that you are wrong as well. What I find concerning is the inflation of the danger of the incident. The demonstrated single black complainant about the train diorama does not equal an imminent race riot and wasn't worthy of a news segment. Complaints about chainmail bikinis in Dragon does not mean that DnD book burnings would increase during the Satanic Panic. These may be warning signs of upcoming events, but that can only be best determined with hindsight after the dust has settled.

This also ties in with Shawn Driscoll's blathering about the Mongoose release of Shield Maidens. It looks so far to be aimed commercially at women gamers and I doubt is the opening up of another front in the gaming culture war (in short, it isn't Thirsty Sword Lesbians II - Electric Boogaloo). Now, while I don't find the premise of the game appealing (I hate mixing science fiction and fantasy), that doesn't mean the game is some form of evilbadwrongfun and should not exist. I'm not interested in the game, so I will not buy it or play it.

Where my concern comes in (along with the vast majority of ALL CAPS POSTS) is that by over-reacting to these and other incidents, we drive people who actually play out of the hobby. From what I can see, DnD 5E's embracing of wokeness is already driving players away from that game because of recently done crappy published books and modules. Now, I am starting to also be concerned about the attitude of various OSR champions who believe that just because a game is not DnD based, that it is only Old School and not Old School Revival because that kind of tribal exclusionary attitude tends to push allies away - particularly those allies who might really enjoy the games being played.

I'm in it for the long haul. I want the hobby to be alive and vibrant until the day I die. Suicide by imploding fanbase is not how I want to see it fail.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 24, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
Let's stop fucking dancing around the basic facts.

1) RPGs involve lots of reading of books.

2) Cultures which do not value reading and do not promote it among their children are cultures where RPGs (and other games involving the reading of many rules) will NOT be popular.

3) Not rocket science that RPGs were more popular with the honors class kids of all skin colors than among the short bus kids.

Want more blacks in RPGs? Great, go fix black culture's attitudes toward school, reading and intellectual achievements. But first google Chris Rock + books + kryptonite.

Have fun storming the ghetto castle...if you can get past the left's plantation gates.

Not enjoying reading is a reason that my local seller blamed for decreased sales among younger crowds, along with competing against video games.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 24, 2022, 07:35:13 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 01:30:07 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 24, 2022, 12:52:26 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:14:28 PM
Stop arguing and fuck already, you two.

We're LARPing a game of Thirsty Sword Lesbians in Western Womens Sports. I'm playing hard to get while we wait for GeekyBugles bloodwork to come back and confirm that he does not have venereal COVID.

Won't lie that made me laugh out loud, I really needed it IRL stuff has been getting me down. So for that thanks. You're still wrong or lying about what I said tho.

I'm glad that I could make you smile. IRL stuff is getting me stressed as well.

Now, I still think that you are wrong as well. What I find concerning is the inflation of the danger of the incident. The demonstrated single black complainant about the train diorama does not equal an imminent race riot and wasn't worthy of a news segment. Complaints about chainmail bikinis in Dragon does not mean that DnD book burnings would increase during the Satanic Panic. These may be warning signs of upcoming events, but that can only be best determined with hindsight after the dust has settled.

This also ties in with Shawn Driscoll's blathering about the Mongoose release of Shield Maidens. It looks so far to be aimed commercially at women gamers and I doubt is the opening up of another front in the gaming culture war (in short, it isn't Thirsty Sword Lesbians II - Electric Boogaloo). Now, while I don't find the premise of the game appealing (I hate mixing science fiction and fantasy), that doesn't mean the game is some form of evilbadwrongfun and should not exist. I'm not interested in the game, so I will not buy it or play it.

Where my concern comes in (along with the vast majority of ALL CAPS POSTS) is that by over-reacting to these and other incidents, we drive people who actually play out of the hobby. From what I can see, DnD 5E's embracing of wokeness is already driving players away from that game because of recently done crappy published books and modules. Now, I am starting to also be concerned about the attitude of various OSR champions who believe that just because a game is not DnD based, that it is only Old School and not Old School Revival because that kind of tribal exclusionary attitude tends to push allies away - particularly those allies who might really enjoy the games being played.

I'm in it for the long haul. I want the hobby to be alive and vibrant until the day I die. Suicide by imploding fanbase is not how I want to see it fail.

No one said that the chainmail bikini article had anything to do with the Satanic Panic.

Me> Couple X got married DURING the summer of love.

You> Couple X getting married didn't start the summer of love nor did it prolong it!

Again I'm just saying it came out WHILE the satanic panic was going, because I don't remember the magazine's issue number but I do remember it was way back then.

Of course it had jack shit to do with the book burnings, I doubt very much most people really noticed it, paid any attention to it if they did or understood what it signified. And I do not think the people burning books were reading magazines about how to play the game.

With the benefit of hindsight we can recognize the article as the begining of the infestation of D&D by feminists. I doubt anyone raised any alarms back then, we were too focused on fighting the fundies.

We've seen example after example of how the infestation starts, it's never a full out assault, it's always a small ask, followed by another small ask, until they have enough power.

Pareidolia is a useful tool, when it's not tricking us. But remember we're descendants of the monkeys that ran/climbed the tree. So it will trick us sometimes.

I might be wrong and this is just an innocent accident.,. I don't think so but it's a possibility.

And that's all there is to it.

All this of course ignores the bigger picture.

Why all the focus on just one minority?

Because its this iterations current pet.

Prior ones was mostly Hispanics.

Before that it was mostly Native Americans.

Not sure what was before that.

Quote from: Omega on March 24, 2022, 04:15:16 PM
All this of course ignores the bigger picture.

Why all the focus on just one minority?

Because its this iterations current pet.

Prior ones was mostly Hispanics.

Before that it was mostly Native Americans.

Not sure what was before that.

Wahmen, even if they are the majority.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 11:59:18 AM
I'm just saying it came out WHILE the satanic panic was going, because I don't remember the magazine's issue number but I do remember it was way back then.

Of course it had jack shit to do with the book burnings, I doubt very much most people really noticed it, paid any attention to it if they did or understood what it signified. And I do not think the people burning books were reading magazines about how to play the game.

With the benefit of hindsight we can recognize the article as the begining of the infestation of D&D by feminists. I doubt anyone raised any alarms back then, we were too focused on fighting the fundies.

We've seen example after example of how the infestation starts, it's never a full out assault, it's always a small ask, followed by another small ask, until they have enough power.

Hi, GeekyBugle. I think you might be talking about Dragon #39 (July 1980). It has two articles about women, "Women Want Equality" by Jean Wells and Kim Mohan, and "Points to Ponder" by Kyle Gray. They're on pages 16 and 17.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg039.pdf

However, there are signs of feminism before that. For example, AD&D used "he or she" pronouns throughout the books and included female characters throughout, plus officially changing from "Fighting Man" to "Fighter" and similar. This was different from the original books (which used only "he") and very different from Len Lakofka's suggestions in Dragon #3 (October 1976), pages 7-11.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg003.pdf

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 05:58:21 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 11:59:18 AM
I'm just saying it came out WHILE the satanic panic was going, because I don't remember the magazine's issue number but I do remember it was way back then.

Of course it had jack shit to do with the book burnings, I doubt very much most people really noticed it, paid any attention to it if they did or understood what it signified. And I do not think the people burning books were reading magazines about how to play the game.

With the benefit of hindsight we can recognize the article as the begining of the infestation of D&D by feminists. I doubt anyone raised any alarms back then, we were too focused on fighting the fundies.

We've seen example after example of how the infestation starts, it's never a full out assault, it's always a small ask, followed by another small ask, until they have enough power.

Hi, GeekyBugle. I think you might be talking about Dragon #39 (July 1980). It has two articles about women, "Women Want Equality" by Jean Wells and Kim Mohan, and "Points to Ponder" by Kyle Gray. They're on pages 16 and 17.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg039.pdf

However, there are signs of feminism before that. For example, AD&D used "he or she" pronouns throughout the books and included female characters throughout, plus officially changing from "Fighting Man" to "Fighter" and similar. This was different from the original books (which used only "he") and very different from Len Lakofka's suggestions in Dragon #3 (October 1976), pages 7-11.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg003.pdf

So the chainmail bikini clad female characters were feminist?

Including female characters is feminist? Robert E. Howard feminist confirmed.

Not saying you're wrong, I just find it funny that those are Schroedingers feminist characters.

You might be totally right.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 06:30:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 05:58:21 PM
Hi, GeekyBugle. I think you might be talking about Dragon #39 (July 1980). It has two articles about women, "Women Want Equality" by Jean Wells and Kim Mohan, and "Points to Ponder" by Kyle Gray. They're on pages 16 and 17.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg039.pdf

However, there are signs of feminism before that. For example, AD&D used "he or she" pronouns throughout the books and included female characters throughout, plus officially changing from "Fighting Man" to "Fighter" and similar. This was different from the original books (which used only "he") and very different from Len Lakofka's suggestions in Dragon #3 (October 1976), pages 7-11.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg003.pdf

So the chainmail bikini clad female characters were feminist?

Including female characters is feminist? Robert E. Howard feminist confirmed.

Not saying you're wrong, I just find it funny that those are Schroedingers feminist characters.

You might be totally right.

I'm not saying that everything in AD&D was feminist, just as I'm sure you're not saying that everything in Dragon magazine was feminist. The question is when did feminist influence/infection start? I'd say there's feminist influence in AD&D compared to original D&D, given it's use of "he or she" and other pointed inclusion - when original D&D had no mention of women as characters. And just about anything is feminist compared to Len Lakofka's suggestions on how to add women into original D&D.

And yeah, I would say Robert E. Howard was a feminist for his time, given his characters like Red Sonya.

(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/shadowofthevulture.jpg) (https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/shadowofthevulture.jpg)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 05:11:08 PM
Wahmen, even if they are the majority.

They are the stage every time before the moral guardians cycle around to minorities. Usually with the LGBT in between and the handicapped after. Sometimes with more emphasis on one than the other.

Every cycle of this cult goes just about always.
Think of the Children! The initial push for censoring anything they can combined with accusations of pedophillia.
Think of the Women! So oppressed and demeaned by those vile Men! Usually combined with pushing for more censorship.
Think of the Gays! This one has a tendency to go from promoting gay rights to trying to spread homosexuality like it was a disease to inflict on others. This iteration is particularly bad for that.
Think of the Minorities! Whatever this cycles pet is. The others tend to get less attention, or none, or are part of the "problem". Always trying to incite riots and violence in the name of "social justice"
Think of the Cripples! Usually an after thought, always pushing "ableism" and how being cured or wanting a normal life is BAD.

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 07:43:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 06:30:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 05:58:21 PM
Hi, GeekyBugle. I think you might be talking about Dragon #39 (July 1980). It has two articles about women, "Women Want Equality" by Jean Wells and Kim Mohan, and "Points to Ponder" by Kyle Gray. They're on pages 16 and 17.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg039.pdf

However, there are signs of feminism before that. For example, AD&D used "he or she" pronouns throughout the books and included female characters throughout, plus officially changing from "Fighting Man" to "Fighter" and similar. This was different from the original books (which used only "he") and very different from Len Lakofka's suggestions in Dragon #3 (October 1976), pages 7-11.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg003.pdf

So the chainmail bikini clad female characters were feminist?

Including female characters is feminist? Robert E. Howard feminist confirmed.

Not saying you're wrong, I just find it funny that those are Schroedingers feminist characters.

You might be totally right.

I'm not saying that everything in AD&D was feminist, just as I'm sure you're not saying that everything in Dragon magazine was feminist. The question is when did feminist influence/infection start? I'd say there's feminist influence in AD&D compared to original D&D, given it's use of "he or she" and other pointed inclusion - when original D&D had no mention of women as characters. And just about anything is feminist compared to Len Lakofka's suggestions on how to add women into original D&D.

And yeah, I would say Robert E. Howard was a feminist for his time, given his characters like Red Sonya.

(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/shadowofthevulture.jpg) (https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/shadowofthevulture.jpg)

Well you're an heretic to the progressive cult then. To them both REH & D&D were ALWAYS muhsoggyknistic.

Given feminism's somewhat chaotic beginnings it's not surprising things have gone somewhat off the rails. The origins of the term trace back to one Charles Fourier, who among other things confidently predicted that his utopia would result in 5 new moons, the seas turning to lemonade, and every woman having four husbands. As you can see, they've still got a ways to go.

Feminists went off the rails practically out the gate. And have gone over every cliff they could thereafter.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 24, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
1) RPGs involve lots of reading of books.

If this were a significant driving force in the popularity of the hobby I'd expect it to be more popular among girls than among boys.

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 05:58:21 PM
This was different from the original books (which used only "he") and very different from Len Lakofka's suggestions in Dragon #3 (October 1976), pages 7-11.

https://www.annarchive.com/files/Drmg003.pdf

ALL WOMEN wield a dagger at an additional +1.  ;D ;D

Quote from: mightybrain on March 25, 2022, 03:31:51 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 24, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
1) RPGs involve lots of reading of books.

If this were a significant driving force in the popularity of the hobby I'd expect it to be more popular among girls than among boys.

Except for the part where RPGs tend to appeal more to nerdy bookworms who're good with math and dealing with complex systems, which tends to be disproportionally boys.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:04:09 AM

Quote from: mightybrain on March 25, 2022, 03:31:51 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 24, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
1) RPGs involve lots of reading of books.

If this were a significant driving force in the popularity of the hobby I'd expect it to be more popular among girls than among boys.

Except for the part where RPGs tend to appeal more to nerdy bookworms who're good with math and dealing with complex systems, which tends to be disproportionally boys.

A.K.A., people on the "spectrum".

Quote from: dkabq on March 27, 2022, 06:48:50 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:04:09 AM

Quote from: mightybrain on March 25, 2022, 03:31:51 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 24, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
1) RPGs involve lots of reading of books.

If this were a significant driving force in the popularity of the hobby I'd expect it to be more popular among girls than among boys.

Except for the part where RPGs tend to appeal more to nerdy bookworms who're good with math and dealing with complex systems, which tends to be disproportionally boys.

A.K.A., people on the "spectrum".

From my experience this is true to a certain extent, us autists are way over represented in the RPG hobby. Doesn't mean we're ALL of the hobby but still.

From what I can tell, the rates of autism are the same for children in all ethnic groups. So it would seem this can't be responsible for the differences either.

As has been noted. Peer pressure. Differing interests. Differing lifestyles. Differing Cultures. Differing Regions.

Why arent more rich people playing RPGs?
Why arent more Race Car Drivers playing RPGs?

Go to one place and you'll see sometimes dramatic drops in RPG play by anyone. In some countries it is still illegal to play RPGs because of the Satanic Panic. Or simply hasnt caught on, or the lifestyle there just doesnt lend to the right mindset. And there are going to be places the exact opposite.

As with every other thing in gaming, board, video, RPG. Yep. You guessed it. Varies wildly from one to the next.

And the SJWs are going to continue to try and twist things to their agenda to further increase racial tensions.

Quote from: mightybrain on March 27, 2022, 03:11:57 PM
From what I can tell, the rates of autism are the same for children in all ethnic groups. So it would seem this can't be responsible for the differences either.

Who claimed autism was the cause for it? Provide the exact quote please.

Why don't more black people play role playing games?

I honestly don't give a damn.

If they want to play, they can. If they don't want to play, that's fine too. Even obsessing over such questions is playing the far left's game by the far left's rules. What aren't there more blacks in x, y, or x career or hobby? Racism obviously! Why aren't there more women in a, b, or c career or hobby? Sexism obviously The answer precedes the question. Those answers are the only ones that are allowed to be considered among people who care about representation.

Quote from: ShieldWife on March 27, 2022, 04:46:53 PM
Why don't more black people play role playing games?

I honestly don't give a damn.

If they want to play, they can. If they don't want to play, that's fine too. Even obsessing over such questions is playing the far left's game by the far left's rules. What aren't there more blacks in x, y, or x career or hobby? Racism obviously! Why aren't there more women in a, b, or c career or hobby? Sexism obviously The answer precedes the question. Those answers are the only ones that are allowed to be considered among people who care about representation.

Or...

We're not "obsessing over such questions" but interested in finding alternative explanations that have some factual basis for those who're not in the DIE cult?