Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

Could be due to Seelah, the example paladin in PF. Need more data though.

If more blacks ain't playing hey here's an idea- because more don't want to.

For crying out loud computers are cheap if you get them at ebay and the internet has LOADS of PDF dnd stuff for downloading FREE. Paper is cheap. Graph paper is cheap. Some black guys want to play nothing in the world is stopping them.

But dnd was always a geek white boy loser thing to most people. That's one group it's okay to make fun of.

The way things are going the 8% going to have cameras in every house to make sure there's enough damn "diversity". Knowing the 92% they'll pay for them and dust the lenses. GAH!

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 16, 2022, 08:03:44 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

How do you post when you clearly can't read?

Because you want the censorship of something, while claiming that you llike that same thing? Perhaps you can not read what you have written yourself? You use all the typical moral guardian tricks. Then are surprised when you get called out on it?

Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 14, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
From a cultural perspective, I would actually be more interested in knowing why so few Asians play TTRPGs. By Asians I mean people in Asia, not Asian-Americans or whatnot. This is not just the case in East Asia, but even more so in India and the Middle East, even though there's already a large middle class in those regions. RPG video games are played the world over, but TTRPGs are still very much concentrated in North America and Western Europe. Here in Germany, all of the TTRPG players I have ever come across are white (even at conventions). Moreover, none of them are Muslim, despite the fact that Germany has a large Muslim minority (mostly Turks and Arabs).

There are a lot, actually. Call of Cthulhu is hot in Japan, and in Malaysia, there have been a lot of hobby stores popping up. Less relevant, but in Bangkok there is a wargaming scene too.

Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 12:56:08 PM
It would seem that TTRPGs are even more narrow than just 'white people'. Most white people have no more interest than black people or other minorities. Within that narrow range, mostly white people, it is limited even more to geeks. I guess geeks in other regions have other things to amuse them?

I've played D&D with a fair number of black and South Asian players in London. Everyone tends to be pretty nerdy/geeky, of course! Worldwide I think RPGs tend to appeal most to Europeans, perhaps especially North Europeans (the weather encourages indoor pursuits), and to a lesser extent north-east-Asians, notably Japan, the geekiest country in the world. 

Quote from: Omega on March 17, 2022, 07:52:39 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 16, 2022, 08:03:44 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

How do you post when you clearly can't read?

Because you want the censorship of something, while claiming that you llike that same thing? Perhaps you can not read what you have written yourself? You use all the typical moral guardian tricks. Then are surprised when you get called out on it?

Let me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 08:33:21 AMLet me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

No one's claiming otherwise (at least I didn't see any claims that bikini chainmails were realistic in Omega's posts). Plus I already preemptively addressed the point about "realism" when this side argument started several pages ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself ). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 18, 2022, 09:26:29 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 08:33:21 AMLet me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

No one's claiming otherwise (at least I didn't see any claims that bikini chainmails were realistic in Omega's posts). Plus I already preemptively addressed the point about "realism" when this side argument started several pages ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself ). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Use the full quote.

QuoteGeeky is both right and wrong, in a sense.

He's wrong because D&D's shift didn't occur in a vacuum. It wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those). Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

The point I was making was that (a) the shifts didn't occur in a vacuum, (b) chainmail bikinis are silly, but I wasn't calling for censorship -- only to point out there were good arguments against them, and that (c) the issue is deeper than 'OMG SJWs attack!'.

But Omega is a thirsty fuck who immediately jumped on the 'YOU CENSORIOUS PRUDE' wagon, because God forbid someone say 'Hey, this seems kind of absurd'.

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM


I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Yep, a lot of those types about.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Considering some of Pathfinder's content, that's a special kind of stupid on their part.

Greetings!

The whole argument about how terrible and sexist "Chainmail Bikinis" and otherwise sexy-looking, provocative women being portrayed in RPG artwork or in miniatures is fucking stupid. In the real world, of people I have actually known and gamed with--both male and females alike--have *always* enjoyed provocative and sexy women in RPG art and miniatures.

The only people I have ever heard voicing shrill objections and blubbering arguments against such things have been thirsty, simping male feminists or bloated hog-beast women feminists.

Of course, my perspective is "anecdotal"--and may seem "limited"--though I would argue that my perspective is based on living in the real world, talking with real people, and actually gaming for extended periods of times with such real gamers. The hate-filled critics that shriek about "Misogyny!" and "What about the children?!" and all of that bullshit seem to be isolated to "Letters to the Editor" sections, or now, online. These prudish, control-freak nutjobs are on the margins of the hobby, and are absolutely ridiculous. AND, I also suspect that a good portion of *them* may not actually be genuine gamers, but rather related family-members, hangers-on, and various other kinds of social gadflies always seeking to stir up controversy and also to draw attention to themselves.

Fuck them all.

I say we should always encourage provocative, sexy art, and the same with miniatures.

Let the social prudes and feminist nutjobs go play with Barney stuffed animals.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 10:09:59 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 18, 2022, 09:26:29 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 08:33:21 AMLet me know when you figure out the difference between censorship and 'stop kidding yourself, this is about looking at pretty girls, not about realism'.

No one's claiming otherwise (at least I didn't see any claims that bikini chainmails were realistic in Omega's posts). Plus I already preemptively addressed the point about "realism" when this side argument started several pages ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 03:53:18 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

And even when they're genuine arguments about "realism" and whatnot, they tend to be asenine and fall into the category of "who gives a shit?" Outside of very specific contexts that largely apply only to a specific group's table (like historical accuracy), worrying about Bikini Armor tends to be mostly about wrongbadfun.

But in the larger cultural context, the people who advance this type of argument and actually get heard tend to be religious nuts or feminists (but I repeat myself ). Or rarely "what about the children?!?" But that's just more moralizing and usually motivated by moral sensibilities inspired by religion or feminism, using children as a shield.

Use the full quote.

QuoteGeeky is both right and wrong, in a sense.

He's wrong because D&D's shift didn't occur in a vacuum. It wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those). Keep in mind all this is happening as the culture overall is being infested with performance virtue, participation trophies, and stupid amounts of bigotry masquerading as antiracism. Remove that burgeoning cultural bullshit and the chainmail bikini argument becomes a minor contention and footnote in history.

But if you don't think D&D has been shitted up by the zeitgeist, I really don't know what to tell you, other than 'did you miss the fucking discussion about how WotC was rewriting monsters to not be evil'?

The point I was making was that (a) the shifts didn't occur in a vacuum, (b) chainmail bikinis are silly, but I wasn't calling for censorship -- only to point out there were good arguments against them, and that (c) the issue is deeper than 'OMG SJWs attack!'.

But Omega is a thirsty fuck who immediately jumped on the 'YOU CENSORIOUS PRUDE' wagon, because God forbid someone say 'Hey, this seems kind of absurd'.

My point was: In D&D and the RPG hobby in general, the infestation didn't start with a hundred bluehaired lanwhales reeing about fatfobia, it started with said article about chainmail bikinis.

IDGAF about any "good and practical reasons to argue against those", because it's not about being practical it's about it being cool and yes, so teenage boys have something to look at. Nothing wrong with that or with bodicce ripper's covers.

Just like the article about model trains is just the start, or like the Femynids in WH40K didn't start with "WH40K is for everybody but".

A journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step.

Back then the Satanic Panic was the bigger social force and if you were against it you were a satan worshipping sinner, now a different moral panic has the force, and if you're against it then you're an istophobe.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 18, 2022, 07:07:46 PM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM

Quote from: Koltar on March 17, 2022, 03:45:38 PM
Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.

I think this comes down to religion. I knew a (white) guy who ran a Pathfinder game for the youth group at his church. His said he went with PF because some of the parents would object to D&D because of they still believed the Satanic Panic nonsense about it, but they didn't have those associations with Pathfinder.

Considering some of Pathfinder's content, that's a special kind of stupid on their part.

Oh, granted. Pathfinder's the only setting I'm aware of that makes playing a devil-worshiper a serious option, and the Elohim monster has got to hold a record for how many religions it blasphemes.

The Chainmail Bikini argument didn't start the Satanic Panic and you have lost all sense of perspective if you think it did and that people should be punished for disagreeing with you.

Here is The Pulling Report, read up what did start the Satanic Panic and get a grip because ya'll sound like Mirror Universe Woke Scolds.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html