Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 15, 2022, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

*big pic snipped*

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest

I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

Oh, for fuck's sake! I thought you were better than this!

HOW IN THE GODDAMN FLYING FUCK DO WE KNOW THAT THOSE PIECES WEREN'T DELIBERATELY MOVED FROM THEIR ORIGINAL POSITIONS INTO THOSE POSITIONS IN ORDER TO CREATE A CONTROVERSY AND GET MORE PEOPLE TO ATTEND THE MODEL TRAIN CONVENTION?!?

This entire forum is starting to look like it has jumped the shark.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 15, 2022, 05:06:41 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 15, 2022, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 02:51:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 01:23:31 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 14, 2022, 12:07:11 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 13, 2022, 11:40:56 PM
I agree with Fheredin: D&D and other major brands are expensive, not roleplaying in general. At least, not anymore. Basic Fantasy's not only free to download, you can get physical copies at cost, and there are a bunch of adventures for it, also for free or at cost.

BUT...

Who knows those games? Mostly those who are already part of the hobby.

Basic D&D PDF is less than 4 bucks on drivethrurpg.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?src=hottest_filtered

Going Brick and Mortar, we have the essentials kit for 13 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Essentials-Kit-Boxed/dp/0786966831/ref=asc_df_0786966831/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78795693080&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366418875758&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17548282611176089342&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033278&hvtargid=pla-813156597836

More importantly, why aren't we talking about diversity in the model train community? [/s] I think most "lack of X" in gaming can be tracked to how it was viewed as a weird, nerdy thing that losers did in their basement because they couldn't get chicks.
That has changed drastically over the years, to where Vin Diesel mentions playing D&D, or Henry Cavil mentions being a 40k fan, and it's seen as quirky and not pathetic.

*Edit*

Ok, I scrolled down on the amazon essentials link and, well...

*big pic snipped*

You jest but the loccust has been working on Train modellers for a while.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/exclusive-racist-train-model-sparks-change-in-policy-at-trainfest

I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

Oh, for fuck's sake! I thought you were better than this!

HOW IN THE GODDAMN FLYING FUCK DO WE KNOW THAT THOSE PIECES WEREN'T DELIBERATELY MOVED FROM THEIR ORIGINAL POSITIONS INTO THOSE POSITIONS IN ORDER TO CREATE A CONTROVERSY AND GET MORE PEOPLE TO ATTEND THE MODEL TRAIN CONVENTION?!?

This entire forum is starting to look like it has jumped the shark.

Moved by who? If you watched the video, they had a deliberate setup with flashing lights on the cop car. Are you suggesting the diorama creators, or the staff, or a passer-by rearranged things?
What were there supposed original positions? If we're making blind guesses, maybe martians did it in order to create racial dissent before their invasion...

It was dumb and it was tacky. If it's the best example of SJW influence, I think the model train hobbyists can rest easy.

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 15, 2022, 05:00:35 PM
I raised my eyebrow at that diorama myself. Cops drawing guns on a bunch of black people hanging out.... maybe a bit tone deaf at a model train convention thing.

You know whats really funny/pathetic.

The "problematic" diorama bit was likely supporting the very people that bitched.

Remember. this cult always turns on eachother because they can just hallucinate anything as offensive or racist.

But late to this vid but he makes some solid points. I like his common-sense approach.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 15, 2022, 02:21:20 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2022, 11:09:43 AMIt wasn't JUST the argument about chainmail bikinis (as I've noted myself, there are perfectly good and practical reasons to argue against those).

Except these "arguments" are just more moral busybodying. Which is why it gets so much resistance. The more you try to censor, the more resistance builds.

Look, just admit you like to see pretty girls in skimpy clothing. So do I. Cheesecake is tasty.

But nobody's buying the 'this is totally how a fierce warrior woman would dress'.

Yes we get it. It offends your morals and thus it must be erased. Very JSW virtue signal of you.

How do you post when you clearly can't read?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 09:45:43 PM
I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

I saw this video when it dropped, and I had some fun discussions with my LA crew about it, mainly because it mirrors a lot of our experiences. Half of my LA crew were black, and let's stipulate, LA isn't the rest of America let alone the rest of the world as it pertains to the hobby. BUT we knew our group was odd in its makeup. Literally we had *one* guy that white.

But we were *all* in on the hobby. Still are. When we'd go to conventions, even back then, our group was noticeable - mainly because while we engaged in the hobby deeply, in our private lives we weren't "nerds" - we didn't dress or talk like most of the gaming public back then, and yeah we all chuckled at the fact that for a small minority of those there - we were off-putting, not because we were a bunch of non-whites, per se, but because we were loud, and played aggressively, and our tables sounded a LOT different than other tables. To the *majority* of those cons, we would attract crowds and people liked the energy. Do I know that people were merely curious about the racial makeup of the table? Maybe. But no one would likely have noticed us had we not been socially different *in general*.

The reality is we attracted WAY more people and met way more people than we drove away. Made a lot of friends along the way. But it was never a thing where my black players felt ostracized or even tokenized by the hobby though they knew fully well the vast majority of the hobby was white. It simply never was a thing.

At our table - it was never a thing. I had one player that would always play "black" characters - but never out of context with our setting. If he wanted to play a black human, he'd ask - "Any black cultures here?" If there was we'd come up with a background to justify whatever class he wanted to play, and no big deal. And if there wasn't some explicit culture there, I often just made it up from some location on the map appropriate. If not, then he'd move on to his next concept, if the game was themed in such a way that being a black character wasn't appropriate (like an all-Elf campaign or something). He never asked to make a Black Elf, or something weird like that. Because context was important to them. My other black and hispanic players played whatever the hell they wanted - white, asian, hispanic characters - non-human, but always contextual to whatever our setting and campaign focused on. Because we were all in on the game - not extraneous shit.

Edit: and among our other non-gaming black friends - gaming was WEIRD. Just like it's weird among my Asian relatives.

Anyhow - it's a good video. And I love his channel. C'mon man he covers tons of Gamma World (anything not-D&D) how cool is that?

Quote from: tenbones on March 16, 2022, 11:06:22 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 09:45:43 PM
I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

I saw this video when it dropped, and I had some fun discussions with my LA crew about it, mainly because it mirrors a lot of our experiences. Half of my LA crew were black, and let's stipulate, LA isn't the rest of America let alone the rest of the world as it pertains to the hobby. BUT we knew our group was odd in its makeup. Literally we had *one* guy that white.

But we were *all* in on the hobby. Still are. When we'd go to conventions, even back then, our group was noticeable - mainly because while we engaged in the hobby deeply, in our private lives we weren't "nerds" - we didn't dress or talk like most of the gaming public back then, and yeah we all chuckled at the fact that for a small minority of those there - we were off-putting, not because we were a bunch of non-whites, per se, but because we were loud, and played aggressively, and our tables sounded a LOT different than other tables. To the *majority* of those cons, we would attract crowds and people liked the energy. Do I know that people were merely curious about the racial makeup of the table? Maybe. But no one would likely have noticed us had we not been socially different *in general*.

The reality is we attracted WAY more people and met way more people than we drove away. Made a lot of friends along the way. But it was never a thing where my black players felt ostracized or even tokenized by the hobby though they knew fully well the vast majority of the hobby was white. It simply never was a thing.

At our table - it was never a thing. I had one player that would always play "black" characters - but never out of context with our setting. If he wanted to play a black human, he'd ask - "Any black cultures here?" If there was we'd come up with a background to justify whatever class he wanted to play, and no big deal. And if there wasn't some explicit culture there, I often just made it up from some location on the map appropriate. If not, then he'd move on to his next concept, if the game was themed in such a way that being a black character wasn't appropriate (like an all-Elf campaign or something). He never asked to make a Black Elf, or something weird like that. Because context was important to them. My other black and hispanic players played whatever the hell they wanted - white, asian, hispanic characters - non-human, but always contextual to whatever our setting and campaign focused on. Because we were all in on the game - not extraneous shit.

Anyhow - it's a good video. And I love his channel. C'mon man he covers tons of Gamma World (anything not-D&D) how cool is that?

This may sound slightly bizarre but it's the same problem with idpol slithering into the military. It used to be nobody cared what color you were -- the only color that mattered was the uniform.

Same with RPGs. Nobody gives a shit, just roll the dice. And clearly, while the aforementioned black player had a comfort zone, it wasn't a dealbreaker and he was willing to work within the system. And that's okay.

Nowadays it's all about muh representation and obsessing over needing 'diverse voices'.

That representation, ironically, is mostly screeched about by liberal white players.

These same people that *don't* support settings that aren't Eurocentric, or mini-settings within Eurocentric brands.

To me this is a GM outreach issue. The games aren't going to sell themselves without GM's advocating and growing the interest in *any* setting with players.

Quote from: tenbones on March 16, 2022, 11:06:22 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 09:45:43 PM
I want more people in the hobby who actually want to be in the hobby. I don't care who they are, tbh or what they look like. Sure, great... if more black people want to play (or anyone else for that matter). The only kind of people I don't want to see, or play with are censorious prudes or woke scolds - Both sides of the same coin, basically...

I can't vouch for everyone here, but growing up in the 80s we couldn't wait to tell everyone about RPGs and how cool they were. How many people were we actively trying to rail into our games? Lots!

But it's like anything... Personally, I don't see it as some kind of 'moral duty' to get more people into the hobby, or any other hobby for that matter. Sure, I'll happily encourage people who might be interested or have questions, but there are far more important fish to fry than to get people into elf-games as cool as they are.

I saw this video when it dropped, and I had some fun discussions with my LA crew about it, mainly because it mirrors a lot of our experiences. Half of my LA crew were black, and let's stipulate, LA isn't the rest of America let alone the rest of the world as it pertains to the hobby. BUT we knew our group was odd in its makeup. Literally we had *one* guy that white.

But we were *all* in on the hobby. Still are. When we'd go to conventions, even back then, our group was noticeable - mainly because while we engaged in the hobby deeply, in our private lives we weren't "nerds" - we didn't dress or talk like most of the gaming public back then, and yeah we all chuckled at the fact that for a small minority of those there - we were off-putting, not because we were a bunch of non-whites, per se, but because we were loud, and played aggressively, and our tables sounded a LOT different than other tables. To the *majority* of those cons, we would attract crowds and people liked the energy. Do I know that people were merely curious about the racial makeup of the table? Maybe. But no one would likely have noticed us had we not been socially different *in general*.

The reality is we attracted WAY more people and met way more people than we drove away. Made a lot of friends along the way. But it was never a thing where my black players felt ostracized or even tokenized by the hobby though they knew fully well the vast majority of the hobby was white. It simply never was a thing.

At our table - it was never a thing. I had one player that would always play "black" characters - but never out of context with our setting. If he wanted to play a black human, he'd ask - "Any black cultures here?" If there was we'd come up with a background to justify whatever class he wanted to play, and no big deal. And if there wasn't some explicit culture there, I often just made it up from some location on the map appropriate. If not, then he'd move on to his next concept, if the game was themed in such a way that being a black character wasn't appropriate (like an all-Elf campaign or something). He never asked to make a Black Elf, or something weird like that. Because context was important to them. My other black and hispanic players played whatever the hell they wanted - white, asian, hispanic characters - non-human, but always contextual to whatever our setting and campaign focused on. Because we were all in on the game - not extraneous shit.

Edit: and among our other non-gaming black friends - gaming was WEIRD. Just like it's weird among my Asian relatives.

Anyhow - it's a good video. And I love his channel. C'mon man he covers tons of Gamma World (anything not-D&D) how cool is that?

That matches my own experience as well to some degree. A lot of my mates were into hardcore punk and they thought RPGs were for complete dweebs and considered themselves far 'too cool' for all that lark, a bit like what that guy was saying in the vid. Some people or groups just frowned upon it, and we all just accepted that. But I just didn't care I just wanted to game and didn't care who it was with as long as they were nice people.

In Ireland, during the 1980s we were very insular. So all my RPG mates were white but all from varying backgrounds. Although, I was also playing with a few Americans at the time. That changed when I went to art college in the UK. We had a huge array of players it was great: Iranian, greek, black, white, English, Irish. But as you said, mate, no one gave it a second thought. It was always just about having fun and gaming.

Gaming context is a huge thing for me... A concept that the woke scolds can't fathom and really hate to deal with. I'd be more than happy to play a person from another culture given the game's contextual setting. I mean, I don't want to play in an African setting as a bone white Irish guy. Or play in Sinbad's Arabia as a Celtic maiden. I just want to be part and true of the setting.

But when you say, for example, this is a Viking setting so there are no 'indigenous' people of colour, they cry waaacist. But yet, they won't hold you to the same standard if you wanted to play a 'white dude' in a non-white setting (not that you would).

It's boils down to double standards without understanding.

Quote from: tenbones on March 16, 2022, 02:53:54 PM
That representation, ironically, is mostly screeched about by liberal white players.

Indeed... All those twitter white knights. lol

How the hell did 'chainmail bikini' art get thrown into a discussion abut why there aren't more Black gamers?

Just wondering....,

-Ed C.

Minor side tangent:
When the game Store was still open, over the 12 plus years that I worked there - Black or African American players never made a big deal about whether or not the setting was "Euro-centric" or not. They just played the game and had fun.

In the later years that we were open, more of the Black gamers seemed to be playing 'PATHFINDER' instead of "D&D".

Just noticed the pattern or trend, in this region at least....

- Ed C.