I'm always looking for new S&S fiction to read even though the quality tends to be mediocre at best. Still, some of these knock-offs, like Thongor and Brak, have their own charms. So give me your recommendations for summer brain candy S&S fiction. As noted in the title, don't bother with Conan, I've read it all.
And skip Fritz Leiber as well. I find his writing boring as Hell. It's U&U fiction--Underwhelming & Unengaging.
But others are welcome.
How about Jirel of Joiry? That ought to fit the bill.
Although I'm a fan of Leiber's, so our taste may not be the same.
Thundar! I'm afraid you won't find too many books about him though.
I assume if you've read Conan, you've also read the Cormac Mac Art and Bran Mak Morn series' by Robert E Howard?
My favourite berserker is Logan Ninefingers from the First Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Law) books by Joe Abercrombie. The first trilogy is excellent.
The next six books are good (Including the "Half a..." trilogy which is technically YA), though personally I found the latest trilogy (Age of Madness) to have moved too far away from what I enjoyed in the original books.
I've been reading Savage Realms, a monthly S&S rag. Some of the stories are excellent, with authors and characters recurring regularly a la the original pulps.
Quote from: Simon W on May 01, 2023, 05:20:00 AM
I assume if you've read Conan, you've also read the Cormac Mac Art and Bran Mak Morn series' by Robert E Howard?
Yeah; they didn't do much for me. I do like Kull, however.
Quote from: dbm on May 01, 2023, 08:09:22 AM
My favourite berserker is Logan Ninefingers from the First Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Law) books by Joe Abercrombie. The first trilogy is excellent.
The next six books are good (Including the "Half a..." trilogy which is technically YA), though personally I found the latest trilogy (Age of Madness) to have moved too far away from what I enjoyed in the original books.
As I noted in another thread, I loathe Joe Abercrombie's writing, so that's a no go, but appreciate the suggestion.
Quote from: Baron on May 01, 2023, 12:36:03 AM
How about Jirel of Joiry? That ought to fit the bill.
Although I'm a fan of Leiber's, so our taste may not be the same.
I've read some C.L. Moore in anthologies, but I don't recall this character. Will check her out. Thanks!
Quote from: Zalman on May 01, 2023, 08:40:09 AM
I've been reading Savage Realms, a monthly S&S rag. Some of the stories are excellent, with authors and characters recurring regularly a la the original pulps.
I know this journal, as some of the anthologies I've read include stuff from this, or at least people who contribute to it.
Not specifically all barbarians, but check out Swords of the Four Winds https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXDJYAU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXDJYAU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1).
Anything but Conan... . um how about
Jirel of Joiry,
Ghenghiz Cohen and
Tarl Cabot some to mind....
Jirel is one of, maybe even the first, sword wielding, head chopping off, throwing magic jewels into hell mouths, demon slaying character in fiction. The original "girl boss". Back before Morcock wrote his famous letter demanding the community come up with a name for the new sub-gener created by Robert E. Howard, which we now know as Sword and Sorcery, a term coined by Fritz Leiber.
Cabot of the infamous Gor books. Which are "Sword and Planet" stories like the Barsoom stuff from Edgar Rice Burroughs or Morcock's Sojan stuff. Tarl Cabot, like John Carter or Flash Gordon, is a human from our Earth transported to a savage planet. Gor is infamous as it has very explicit sexual content about domination and ritual humiliation of women. Gor is sort of like humanity without any social controls. The men are violent, sexual slavery is the norm and (this is the controversial part) females want to be dominated and protected. The relationship of Khal Drogo and his blond hair slave girl is basically copied from Gor. Tarl Cabot is an earthling, and so a Barbarian to Gor, but he also acts in a way that would make Conan sick and Red Sonya blush.
Cohen Terry Pratchett's parody of Conan, but like all his stuff the author's innate imagination and inventiveness makes this guy his own thing. This is a joke entry I guess.. but I still dig him. One of my fav Discworld dudes.
Quote from: Baron on May 01, 2023, 12:36:03 AMHow about Jirel of Joiry?
cool... just posted and then read the thread... cool to see Jirel get some love. Underrated as fuck, imo.
Quote from: dbm on May 01, 2023, 08:09:22 AMMy favourite berserker is Logan Ninefingers from the First Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Law) books by Joe Abercrombie. The first trilogy is excellent.
I hear a lot of good things about this.. I really should put it higher on my backlog list.
I'm staying away from all the obvious Howard-era alt-Conans
Bloody Nine - Logen Ninefingers of Joe Abercrombie's First Law series. Survivor, realist, haunted by his alter-ego and his reputation, "The Bloody Nine" When the Blood Nine shows up... it's a bloodbath, bring a lot of towels. By far one of the coolest characters to show up in fantasy, the fact that's he's a barbarian is only icing on a very bloody cake.
Cnaiur Urs-Skiotha, Breaker of Men - One of the most complex, troubled, dark, characters I've ever read. Going into his history is pointless. But if you want to see "Chaotic Evil" in a real literary sense, a barbarian so contradictory to civilization in all its forms, including his own tribe - this is one dark motherfucking road to walk with this guy. He's from the "Prince of Nothing" series by R. Scott Bakker, one of the darkest, most well conceived modern fantasy series in the last twenty-years. Cnaiur is a barbarian other barbarian fear.
Honorable Mention
Baru Serpentslayer - From Ray Feists Magician trilogy. Though he's only in the books for a brief while, I loved his character, and his arc was awesome. Plus who doesn't like a pet dog that's almost the size of a tiger?
Quote from: tenbones on May 01, 2023, 09:52:51 AMCnaiur Urs-Skiotha, Breaker of Men - One of the most complex, troubled, dark, characters I've ever read. Going into his history is pointless. But if you want to see "Chaotic Evil" in a real literary sense, a barbarian so contradictory to civilization in all its forms, including his own tribe - this is one dark motherfucking road to walk with this guy. He's from the "Prince of Nothing" series by R. Scott Bakker, one of the darkest, most well conceived modern fantasy series in the last twenty-years. Cnaiur is a barbarian other barbarian fear.
Prince of Nothing is the Dark Fantasy, grim-dark mic drop that sets a bar that very little even gets close to. It is brutal. The Broken Empire Trilogy by Mark Lawrence is another great series like this. Is Jorg Ancrath a barbarian? He is certainly barbaric.
My favorite would have to be Cohen the Barbarian and his Silver Horde. ;D
Quote from: rhialto on May 01, 2023, 09:40:27 AM
Not specifically all barbarians, but check out Swords of the Four Winds https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXDJYAU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXDJYAU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1).
Fun; just added to my Amazon wishlist.
I also just ordered the recent re-issue of Jirel of Joiry so I should have that next week.
Karl Edward Wagner and his Kane stories for some super fun dark sword and sorcery. Listen to High on Fire at the same time for maximum effect (maybe Surrounded by Thieves or Snakes for the Devine). Sleep's Dopesmoker works too if you prefer something slower.
- Bloodstone
- Night Winds (short stories)
- Death Angel's Shadow (short stories)
- Dark Crusade
- Darkness Weaves
After that, maybe James Silke's Death Dealer stories for a guilty pleasure.
Quote from: Chainsaw on May 01, 2023, 05:46:55 PM
Karl Edward Wagner and his Kane stories for some super fun dark sword and sorcery. Listen to High on Fire at the same time for maximum effect (maybe Surrounded by Thieves or Snakes for the Devine). Sleep's Dopesmoker works too if you prefer something slower.
- Bloodstone
- Night Winds (short stories)
- Death Angel's Shadow (short stories)
- Dark Crusade
- Darkness Weaves
After that, maybe James Silke's Death Dealer stories for a guilty pleasure.
The issue with the Kane stories is that they're out of print from what I can tell and I don't do e-books. But I'll keep looking. At least the
Dark and Lonely Place collection is available and I like horror too, so that works.
Quote from: Persimmon on May 01, 2023, 07:47:23 PM
Quote from: Chainsaw on May 01, 2023, 05:46:55 PM
Karl Edward Wagner and his Kane stories for some super fun dark sword and sorcery. Listen to High on Fire at the same time for maximum effect (maybe Surrounded by Thieves or Snakes for the Devine). Sleep's Dopesmoker works too if you prefer something slower.
- Bloodstone
- Night Winds (short stories)
- Death Angel's Shadow (short stories)
- Dark Crusade
- Darkness Weaves
After that, maybe James Silke's Death Dealer stories for a guilty pleasure.
The issue with the Kane stories is that they're out of print from what I can tell and I don't do e-books. But I'll keep looking. At least the Dark and Lonely Place collection is available and I like horror too, so that works.
Yeah, you will have to buy them used. If you're patient you can find decent buys on ebay.
Does television count? If so...
KORGOTH OF BARBARIA!!!
It's fun to see Cohen the Barbarian getting so much love.
Nobody going to mention the original barbarian hero, Tarzan? Ok, technically Heracles is probably the original barbarian hero but still.... The first two Tarzan books are quite good if you don't mind a bit of schlocky romance. They go on a bit of a quality slide after that, though.
No cartoons and no Tarzan. I want S&S stuff, not Imperialists running around Africa. That would be too much like my day job.
Quote from: Summon666 on May 01, 2023, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: tenbones on May 01, 2023, 09:52:51 AMCnaiur Urs-Skiotha, Breaker of Men - One of the most complex, troubled, dark, characters I've ever read. Going into his history is pointless. But if you want to see "Chaotic Evil" in a real literary sense, a barbarian so contradictory to civilization in all its forms, including his own tribe - this is one dark motherfucking road to walk with this guy. He's from the "Prince of Nothing" series by R. Scott Bakker, one of the darkest, most well conceived modern fantasy series in the last twenty-years. Cnaiur is a barbarian other barbarian fear.
Prince of Nothing is the Dark Fantasy, grim-dark mic drop that sets a bar that very little even gets close to. It is brutal. The Broken Empire Trilogy by Mark Lawrence is another great series like this. Is Jorg Ancrath a barbarian? He is certainly barbaric.
I own Lawrence's books, I haven't read them yet. They're on my pile.
In terms of Prince of Nothing - yeah that bar is set so goddamn high, I don't think it will ever be surpassed, nor do I think writers should *try* since Bakker put so much thought into his world. It rivals anything out there with its philosophical underpinnings and cosmological conclusions it comes to for that world. Cnaiur is like a force of nature. Truly a barbarian not simply by implication, but he is the rejection of any and all forms of societal necessity. There are no barbarians of Conan's ilk, or in any other work of fiction that approaches this state, because they are all barbarians by circumstance. Cnaiur is that as a child, but because of his issues takes it to insane levels. He is pure in a way that others can only look at him as the monster he is. Terrifying and troubling in the most fucked up setting ever.
Quote from: Baron on May 01, 2023, 12:36:03 AM
How about Jirel of Joiry? That ought to fit the bill.
Although I'm a fan of Leiber's, so our taste may not be the same.
Given Jirel was a medieval landholder and her initial adventure was to reclaim her domain from a conqueror I don't think she qualifies as a barbarian.
But read all the Jirel stories anyway. She is the second Sword & Sorcery hero and well worth the time.
Quote from: Zalman on May 01, 2023, 08:40:09 AM
I've been reading Savage Realms, a monthly S&S rag. Some of the stories are excellent, with authors and characters recurring regularly a la the original pulps.
I second this. Some of the stories are duds, but that's going to happen.
There are some excellent stories and reoccurring characters including a wild America post-magic apocalypse series and a fun "Conan and Gabrielle" series. The latter has run in almost every issues and I have loved every story.
The Groo comics were amazing.
Definitely a different take on the barbarian, but well worth the time.
Quote from: Simon W on May 01, 2023, 05:20:00 AM
I assume if you've read Conan, you've also read the Cormac Mac Art and Bran Mak Morn series' by Robert E Howard?
Cormac's tales were continued by another author. The stories weren't bad. i think it was Andrew J. Offut.
Also I second the comments about Grow the Wanderer.
Quote from: Ruprecht on May 04, 2023, 03:16:09 PM
Also I second the comments about Groo the Wanderer.
Well, duh. We can see your portrait you know!
Quote from: Summon666 on May 01, 2023, 09:48:33 AM
Cabot of the infamous Gor books. Gor is infamous as it has very explicit sexual content about domination and ritual humiliation of women.
I really enjoyed the Gor books, I've re-read them more than once. I usually skip the explicit stuff which is easy enough in paperback (pretty much the same explicit stuff is repeated in each book so it really does get tedious). The Gore series is the only series I think I would have preferred an abridged version, but artistic integrity and all that comes first I guess.
Just ordered In a Lonely Place, Sword of the Four Winds, and Tarnsman of Gor.
Thanks, gang! Keep the suggestions coming.
Carl Critchlow's "Thrud the Barbarian" was my favorite.
Peter and David Paul
Quote from: Persimmon on May 04, 2023, 05:48:30 PM
Just ordered In a Lonely Place, Sword of the Four Winds, and Tarnsman of Gor.
Thanks, gang! Keep the suggestions coming.
You might like the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers ( a pen name for Kenneth Bulmer). Dray's not a barbarian, as such (he's an 18th Century English sailor who finds himself on another world, like John Carter) but he is prone to dressing in nothing but a breechclout and swinging a two-handed sword. I like them a great deal. The old DAW paperbacks can be had pretty cheaply, but many of books have been collected into hardcover omnibus editions. The first one is called "The Delian Cycle." ["Cycles" are a series of books related around a central plot point, usually consisting of 3 to five books). Bulmer got into RPGS for a while and man, can you ever tell. There's one whole cycle of books where Dray goes dungeoneering (or "ten foot poling" as he calls it).
Just curious -- why did you get
In a Lonely Place? You do know it's a collection of contemporary horror stories that has nothing to do with Kane or heroic fantasy of any sort, right? It's an excellent book -- I bought it and read it earlier this year, after waiting years for a reprint -- but if you're expecting Kane, forget it.
Quote from: I on May 04, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
You might like the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers ( a pen name for Kenneth Bulmer). Dray's not a barbarian, as such (he's an 18th Century English sailor who finds himself on another world, like John Carter) but he is prone to dressing in nothing but a breechclout and swinging a two-handed sword. I like them a great deal. The old DAW paperbacks can be had pretty cheaply, but many of books have been collected into hardcover omnibus editions. The first one is called "The Delian Cycle." ["Cycles" are a series of books related around a central plot point, usually consisting of 3 to five books). Bulmer got into RPGS for a while and man, can you ever tell. There's one whole cycle of books where Dray goes dungeoneering (or "ten foot poling" as he calls it).
You guys are aware of the Dray Prescott AD&D module, Beneath Two Suns, from Mayfair?
Quote from: Baron on May 04, 2023, 10:49:37 PM
You guys are aware of the Dray Prescott AD&D module, Beneath Two Suns, from Mayfair?
I am. Played through it, too. I wish there had been more of them, but the Prescot books never took off the way they should have. The cover art may have been a factor -- it was usually terrible.
Quote from: I on May 04, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 04, 2023, 05:48:30 PM
Just ordered In a Lonely Place, Sword of the Four Winds, and Tarnsman of Gor.
Thanks, gang! Keep the suggestions coming.
You might like the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers ( a pen name for Kenneth Bulmer). Dray's not a barbarian, as such (he's an 18th Century English sailor who finds himself on another world, like John Carter) but he is prone to dressing in nothing but a breechclout and swinging a two-handed sword. I like them a great deal. The old DAW paperbacks can be had pretty cheaply, but many of books have been collected into hardcover omnibus editions. The first one is called "The Delian Cycle." ["Cycles" are a series of books related around a central plot point, usually consisting of 3 to five books). Bulmer got into RPGS for a while and man, can you ever tell. There's one whole cycle of books where Dray goes dungeoneering (or "ten foot poling" as he calls it).
Just curious -- why did you get In a Lonely Place? You do know it's a collection of contemporary horror stories that has nothing to do with Kane or heroic fantasy of any sort, right? It's an excellent book -- I bought it and read it earlier this year, after waiting years for a reprint -- but if you're expecting Kane, forget it.
I'm a big horror fan too, and that was the only one of his books still in print.
Quote from: Persimmon on May 04, 2023, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: I on May 04, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 04, 2023, 05:48:30 PM
Just ordered In a Lonely Place, Sword of the Four Winds, and Tarnsman of Gor.
Thanks, gang! Keep the suggestions coming.
You might like the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers ( a pen name for Kenneth Bulmer). Dray's not a barbarian, as such (he's an 18th Century English sailor who finds himself on another world, like John Carter) but he is prone to dressing in nothing but a breechclout and swinging a two-handed sword. I like them a great deal. The old DAW paperbacks can be had pretty cheaply, but many of books have been collected into hardcover omnibus editions. The first one is called "The Delian Cycle." ["Cycles" are a series of books related around a central plot point, usually consisting of 3 to five books). Bulmer got into RPGS for a while and man, can you ever tell. There's one whole cycle of books where Dray goes dungeoneering (or "ten foot poling" as he calls it).
Just curious -- why did you get In a Lonely Place? You do know it's a collection of contemporary horror stories that has nothing to do with Kane or heroic fantasy of any sort, right? It's an excellent book -- I bought it and read it earlier this year, after waiting years for a reprint -- but if you're expecting Kane, forget it.
I'm a big horror fan too, and that was the only one of his books still in print.
Since you like horror, you may or may not be aware that a couple of Wagner's Kane stories were published in
The Year's Best Horror Series V and VI. These contain, respectively, "Sing a Last Song of Valdese" and "Undertow." Both are excellent, especially "Undertow" which stayed with me for a long time after I read it.
It depends on your definition of Barbarian. I see the name meaning someone from a less civilised culture than the main setting. Many of the heroes mentioned don't quite fit this.
For classic Barbarians? Even Conan didn't have as big a place in my imagination back pre-Millennium as Slaine mac Roth did. His not being mentioned here could mean he's more a British thing, as he comes from the 2000AD comic strip of the same name.
He's been around since the 80s. Sadly, as the years went by the quality of the artwork increased in direct proportion to the quality of the writing. The original black-and-white comics were pure Sword & Sorcery gold. The most recent comics have every panel being amazing fantasy art but the story is distinctly Meh.
The various Eric John Stark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_John_Stark) stories from Leigh Brackett are very good. It is all high-quality sword & planet material influenced by Burroughs, hard-boiled detective fiction, and a romantic sensibility. Disregard the SJW warbling in the wiki article, it is irrelevant to the quality of this stuff.
Quote from: Feratu on May 04, 2023, 05:53:01 PM
Carl Critchlow's "Thrud the Barbarian" was my favorite.
Thrud, no contest. Well, maybe 2000AD's Sláine.
Quote from: Baron on May 04, 2023, 10:49:37 PM
You guys are aware of the Dray Prescott AD&D module, Beneath Two Suns, from Mayfair?
Never knew, and now I do: off to find a copy!
Quote from: I on May 04, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
You might like the Dray Prescot books by Alan Burt Akers ( a pen name for Kenneth Bulmer). Dray's not a barbarian, as such (he's an 18th Century English sailor who finds himself on another world, like John Carter) but he is prone to dressing in nothing but a breechclout and swinging a two-handed sword. I like them a great deal. The old DAW paperbacks can be had pretty cheaply, but many of books have been collected into hardcover omnibus editions. The first one is called "The Delian Cycle." ["Cycles" are a series of books related around a central plot point, usually consisting of 3 to five books). Bulmer got into RPGS for a while and man, can you ever tell. There's one whole cycle of books where Dray goes dungeoneering (or "ten foot poling" as he calls it).
Kenneth Bulmer was apparently also friends with Phil Barker: hence the "Filbarrka na Filbarrka" character in the Dray Prescot books, and references from Phil Barker in
Hordes of the Things.
Quote from: Vile Traveller on May 05, 2023, 08:47:15 AMThrud, no contest. Well, maybe 2000AD's Sláine.
ohh how did I forget Sláine the Warped with Brainbiter crushing skulls and Ukko the Royal Parasite! Ohh yeah.. peak 2000AD!
Quote from: Persimmon on April 30, 2023, 11:57:20 PM
Still, some of these knock-offs, like Thongor and Brak, have their own charms. So give me your recommendations for summer brain candy S&S fiction.
I've enjoyed Gardner Fox's stories---Kothar (5 slim 70s novellas) and Kyrick (4 novellas), as well as Karl Edward Wagner's Kane novels and stories (5 books in total as I recall).
I also recently read Zelazny's Dilvish the Damned tales, and while they're not partiularly barbarian-focused (a bit more of a Vancian vibe than I'm used to from RZ), they were quite fun.
Allan.
Quote from: Tantavalist on May 05, 2023, 06:25:23 AM
For classic Barbarians? Even Conan didn't have as big a place in my imagination back pre-Millennium as Slaine mac Roth did. His not being mentioned here could mean he's more a British thing, as he comes from the 2000AD comic strip of the same name.
He's been around since the 80s. Sadly, as the years went by the quality of the artwork increased in direct proportion to the quality of the writing. The original black-and-white comics were pure Sword & Sorcery gold. The most recent comics have every panel being amazing fantasy art but the story is distinctly Meh.
In
inverse proportion. But I loved the early B&W Slaine artwork. The stories definitely took a nosedive in quality, I think from around when Slaine became king, maybe a bit earlier. There's a fetishistic or 'author's Magic World' element & they often feel a bit like Pat Mills' SJW version of John Norman's Gor.
If we're going to include cartoons, my favorite barbarian is Cerebus the Earthpig-Born!
Quote from: grodog on May 11, 2023, 12:29:56 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 30, 2023, 11:57:20 PM
Still, some of these knock-offs, like Thongor and Brak, have their own charms. So give me your recommendations for summer brain candy S&S fiction.
I've enjoyed Gardner Fox's stories---Kothar (5 slim 70s novellas) and Kyrick (4 novellas), as well as Karl Edward Wagner's Kane novels and stories (5 books in total as I recall).
I also recently read Zelazny's Dilvish the Damned tales, and while they're not partiularly barbarian-focused (a bit more of a Vancian vibe than I'm used to from RZ), they were quite fun.
Allan.
Yeah, I enjoy Gardner Fox's stuff too. Just got one of Wagner's horror anthologies in the mail yesterday, but haven't found a cheap enough copy of any of the Kane stories yet.
I did suffer through Jirel of Joiry last week. Ugh....I guess it's groundbreaking if you see it as a precursor to cringy CW-style girlpower fantasy. Awful in every way. Turgid writing, insufferable characters, whiny angst. I kept hoping Red Sonja would magically appear and decapitate her to put her out of my misery....
Quote from: Baron on May 11, 2023, 03:04:33 AM
If we're going to include cartoons, my favorite barbarian is Cerebus the Earthpig-Born!
those comics got super bazaar towards the end lol.
Yeah, I would recommend quitting once the reader begins to get bored. In my re-reads, I quit after the moon sequence. The books I bought after that were wasted money. At least I never made it to the end.
The next six books are good (Including the "Half a..." trilogy which is technically YA), though personally I found the latest trilogy (Age of Madness) to have moved too far away from what I enjoyed in the original books.
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No one's mentioned the Imaro series by Charles Saunders. It takes place in a fantasy Africa setting.
Quote from: crkrueger on May 13, 2023, 04:32:14 AM
No one's mentioned the Imaro series by Charles Saunders. It takes place in a fantasy Africa setting.
I've read it. Serviceable, not great. But I definitely think it's funny that instead of turning the Imaro stories into movies or TV series SJWs decide to insert all these "diverse" characters into Tolkien etc. Shows both their ignorance and greed since the Imaro IP obviously has far less cache (and monetary potential) than LOTR. But if they truly believed in their DEI message, they'd be adapting Imaro.
Quote from: crkrueger on May 13, 2023, 04:32:14 AM
No one's mentioned the Imaro series by Charles Saunders. It takes place in a fantasy Africa setting.
I got two chapters in and it was all stealing cattle from neighboring tribes. Hopefully they get better? I was really curious how an African sword & sorcery would go but it was just dull. It was dull when Cormac Mac Art was stealing cattle and doing this same thing in Africa didn't add much.
Quote from: Persimmon on May 13, 2023, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on May 13, 2023, 04:32:14 AM
No one's mentioned the Imaro series by Charles Saunders. It takes place in a fantasy Africa setting.
I've read it. Serviceable, not great. But I definitely think it's funny that instead of turning the Imaro stories into movies or TV series SJWs decide to insert all these "diverse" characters into Tolkien etc. Shows both their ignorance and greed since the Imaro IP obviously has far less cache (and monetary potential) than LOTR. But if they truly believed in their DEI message, they'd be adapting Imaro.
Greetings!
Great commentary, my friend!
That got me thinking, not for the first time, either--but if these movie people are so concerned about BLACK REPRESENTATION, BLACK VISIBILITY, BLACK, BLACK, BLACK!--why don't they actually make a historical action drama movie about some Black African figure? Juba, a Numidian King during Roman times; Mansa Mousa, a powerful African King, and a devout Muslim, famous for being the wealthiest man in the word at the time. He gave away gold by the wagon-full all along his pilgrimage to Mecca one year, and single-handedly wrecked the economy of Egypt for several years by his generosity. I can't remember their names right now, but there were valiant, Black Ethiopian CHRISTIAN Kings that resisted Islam and defeated Muslim armies for centuries; there are several Black African Kings and QUEENS that fought hard to build their kingdoms, and resisted Muslim dominion. Some also fought fierce civil wars against other Black African Pagan nobles that sought to rebel against the throne--the typical noble rivalries that everyone gets into everywhere.
Point being, lots of interesting leaders, champions, and folk heroes, both men and women, in various African countries. Trying to resist invaders, fight civil wars, seek vengeance against traitors, assassins, or rebels, fighting against jealous siblings, others were enlightened philosopher-kings that struggled to build libraries and universities, all kinds of interesting, fantastic stories going on.
And all could be done--and should be done--without even ONE WHITE PERSON PRESENT. How's that for "diversity"? I always feel like all of these people are absolute morons. They are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, racist, hateful morons. They don't give a damn about true BLACK AFRICANS, or REAL AFRICAN HISTORY, and COURAGE. These morons just hate white people. They hate white history, and white culture.
It just gets so frustrating. Lots of inspiring AFRICAN stories we never get to see or hear about, because these hate-filled morons are more concerned about making Aragorn Black, or making Norse Vikings Black. All the while they snivel like scum-filled toads, crying about "representation" and how racist everyone is for refusing to bow down and celebrate the Monstrosity of BS that they have created as a movie or series.
So disgusting, you know?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 13, 2023, 11:11:40 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 13, 2023, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on May 13, 2023, 04:32:14 AM
No one's mentioned the Imaro series by Charles Saunders. It takes place in a fantasy Africa setting.
I've read it. Serviceable, not great. But I definitely think it's funny that instead of turning the Imaro stories into movies or TV series SJWs decide to insert all these "diverse" characters into Tolkien etc. Shows both their ignorance and greed since the Imaro IP obviously has far less cache (and monetary potential) than LOTR. But if they truly believed in their DEI message, they'd be adapting Imaro.
Greetings!
Great commentary, my friend!
That got me thinking, not for the first time, either--but if these movie people are so concerned about BLACK REPRESENTATION, BLACK VISIBILITY, BLACK, BLACK, BLACK!--why don't they actually make a historical action drama movie about some Black African figure? Juba, a Numidian King during Roman times; Mansa Mousa, a powerful African King, and a devout Muslim, famous for being the wealthiest man in the word at the time. He gave away gold by the wagon-full all along his pilgrimage to Mecca one year, and single-handedly wrecked the economy of Egypt for several years by his generosity. I can't remember their names right now, but there were valiant, Black Ethiopian CHRISTIAN Kings that resisted Islam and defeated Muslim armies for centuries; there are several Black African Kings and QUEENS that fought hard to build their kingdoms, and resisted Muslim dominion. Some also fought fierce civil wars against other Black African Pagan nobles that sought to rebel against the throne--the typical noble rivalries that everyone gets into everywhere.
Point being, lots of interesting leaders, champions, and folk heroes, both men and women, in various African countries. Trying to resist invaders, fight civil wars, seek vengeance against traitors, assassins, or rebels, fighting against jealous siblings, others were enlightened philosopher-kings that struggled to build libraries and universities, all kinds of interesting, fantastic stories going on.
And all could be done--and should be done--without even ONE WHITE PERSON PRESENT. How's that for "diversity"? I always feel like all of these people are absolute morons. They are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, racist, hateful morons. They don't give a damn about true BLACK AFRICANS, or REAL AFRICAN HISTORY, and COURAGE. These morons just hate white people. They hate white history, and white culture.
It just gets so frustrating. Lots of inspiring AFRICAN stories we never get to see or hear about, because these hate-filled morons are more concerned about making Aragorn Black, or making Norse Vikings Black. All the while they snivel like scum-filled toads, crying about "representation" and how racist everyone is for refusing to bow down and celebrate the Monstrosity of BS that they have created as a movie or series.
So disgusting, you know?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
As someone who teaches world history in college and does in fact cover these figures, I obviously agree 100% here. But hey, why not double down and race swap a bunch of the characters in these African stories with Asians, whites, Latinos, etc.? Isn't that what the left claims they want? Why not make Mansa Musa white? Isn't turnabout fair play? Ahhh, such is the depressing clown world we live in.
Quote from: Mishihari on May 01, 2023, 02:32:42 AM
Thundar! I'm afraid you won't find too many books about him though.
I mentioned this years ago. But I actually have a book called Thundarr about a guy who somehow travels into a post apoc future, saves a woman and befriends mutated apes.
Its not the cartoon in any way. But the title and post apoc element are oddly close.
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:22:21 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on May 01, 2023, 02:32:42 AM
Thundar! I'm afraid you won't find too many books about him though.
I mentioned this years ago. But I actually have a book called Thundarr about a guy who somehow travels into a post apoc future, saves a woman and befriends mutated apes.
Its not the cartoon in any way. But the title and post apoc element are oddly close.
This one?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6793282-thundar
Some I like.
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
John Carter of Mars. Not really a barbarian in the normal sense but the world of barsoom is very sword oriented.
One I did not like was Thongor. But I have not liked anything of Carters so far. But Darth Vader playing Thongor in the never produced movie before Conan would have been fun. Did make it to a comic and freakishly enough Captain Kangaroo read part of it??? Weird.
And one I have lost the name of was a series about a warrior who visits Atlantis and gets into various trouble. The one I read had him encountering followers of Baal and nearly getting sacrificed.
Quote from: Baron on May 14, 2023, 02:24:11 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:22:21 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on May 01, 2023, 02:32:42 AM
Thundar! I'm afraid you won't find too many books about him though.
I mentioned this years ago. But I actually have a book called Thundarr about a guy who somehow travels into a post apoc future, saves a woman and befriends mutated apes.
Its not the cartoon in any way. But the title and post apoc element are oddly close.
This one?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6793282-thundar
Yep. Was in Kat's old collection along with some other books like the folk Lovecraftian Silver John stories by Manly Wade Wellman (yes that is is actual name)
Personally I found Thundar to be a bit too random. But that was par for the course with some pulps.
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them. Closest was one with "dogs" in the title in a Baen anthology. (There were no dogs - it was metaphorical.) I could read that one, but much prefer Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, or John Norman.
One-Eye would cut off Conan's head and use the skull for a rice bowl.
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
And one I have lost the name of was a series about a warrior who visits Atlantis and gets into various trouble. The one I read had him encountering followers of Baal and nearly getting sacrificed.
Elak of Atlantis, by Henry Kuttner?
Quote from: Tod13 on May 14, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them. Closest was one with "dogs" in the title in a Baen anthology. (There were no dogs - it was metaphorical.) I could read that one, but much prefer Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, or John Norman.
There's a HUGE difference between the earlier F & GM books and the later ones. As much as I love the earlier stuff, "Swords and Ice Magic" and "The Knight and Knave of Swords" (the last two books) I find to be mostly unreadable. So if you don't like the early stuff, that's OK, you just don't like them. If all you've read is the last two books, then you should give them another try. Howard, Moorcock, etc. never had such a horrible drop-off in the quality of their stuff.
I've read and re-read the Fafhrd & Mouser stories many times, and I like them all very much. I would imagine that any difference in feel between the early ones and the late would be the format. Earliest were short stories written for periodicals. Later they were collected with interconnective material to make the books you get today. The latter ones are longer and written by an older author.
Quote from: I on May 14, 2023, 03:15:00 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on May 14, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them. Closest was one with "dogs" in the title in a Baen anthology. (There were no dogs - it was metaphorical.) I could read that one, but much prefer Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, or John Norman.
There's a HUGE difference between the earlier F & GM books and the later ones. As much as I love the earlier stuff, "Swords and Ice Magic" and "The Knight and Knave of Swords" (the last two books) I find to be mostly unreadable. So if you don't like the early stuff, that's OK, you just don't like them. If all you've read is the last two books, then you should give them another try. Howard, Moorcock, etc. never had such a horrible drop-off in the quality of their stuff.
I always started at the beginning. Thanks for the suggestion though. (My wife got a similar suggestion from a fan of Dresden Files, who says Jim Butcher tells people to start with book 4. So we're buying the 1-6 bundle from ebooks.com.)
Duplicate deleted.
Quote from: Ruprecht on May 14, 2023, 06:16:39 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on May 14, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them.
Yeah, as I said at the start of this thread, I've tried reading the Lankhmar stories multiple times (at least three) and find them boring as Hell. No interest in the setting or any of the characters. Just bad "Buddy thief" fiction.
Quote from: Tod13 on May 14, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them.
Ii have exact same issue. I'm gonna give them another try but I just ... meh.
Quote from: Persimmon on May 14, 2023, 09:01:31 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on May 14, 2023, 06:16:39 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on May 14, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them.
Yeah, as I said at the start of this thread, I've tried reading the Lankhmar stories multiple times (at least three) and find them boring as Hell. No interest in the setting or any of the characters. Just bad "Buddy thief" fiction.
Sorry about that. I don't remember the author or country. I always see the names "Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser" and read the description and think, this sounds so cool! And I love the old pulp stuff. Doc Savage, Lovecraft, the guy who traded stories with Lovecraft (they killed each other in their stories) and whatnot.
One of my favorite barbarians was Armenius of the Cherusci tribe, who in AD 9managed to destroy Romes XII, XIII, and IX legions.
As a young prince of the Cherusci he was educated in Rome by what ammounted to a "Barbarian Cultural Outreach" program. He leanred a out Roman military tactics then set up a devatating ambush in the Tutoborg forest.
He spent the rest of his life keeping the Romans out of Germania.
I found this *excellent* video series that covers the "Prince of Nothing" books by R. Scott Bakker.
Here is their entry for Cnaiur Ur Skiotha's people, the Scylvendi, The People of War.
https://youtu.be/L9rZwt-vBGs
Quote from: Tod13 on May 14, 2023, 10:45:49 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
Am I the only one who doesn't like these stories? I've tried several time over the years to read them and they don't work for me. Nothing "wrong" with them, but I just can't read them. Closest was one with "dogs" in the title in a Baen anthology. (There were no dogs - it was metaphorical.) I could read that one, but much prefer Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, or John Norman.
For me it has been very hit and miss the ones I have read. Been ages though and the only one I remember is the one in Dragon.
Quote from: rhialto on May 14, 2023, 12:14:43 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
And one I have lost the name of was a series about a warrior who visits Atlantis and gets into various trouble. The one I read had him encountering followers of Baal and nearly getting sacrificed.
Elak of Atlantis, by Henry Kuttner?
I want to say yes. But no description I read has the part I read. It probably is Elak but not sure. All I recall was him arriving by boat, meeting a displaced noble and at the end getting caught and sacrifices being paced on a statue to I believe Baal and they died. The warrior figures out it is natural gas and I think blows up the temple. At the end he leaves by boat as he arrived.
QuoteThat got me thinking, not for the first time, either--but if these movie people are so concerned about BLACK REPRESENTATION, BLACK VISIBILITY, BLACK, BLACK, BLACK!--why don't they actually make a historical action drama movie about some Black African figure? Juba, a Numidian King during Roman times;
For OCD sake, I'm gonna notice SHARK, that Juba of Numidia, was not Black African but one of Amazigh - Berbers, who aside of Tuareg fall under Caucasian-Middle Eastern kin.
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser is hit and miss, but some stories are amazing IMO.
Try the comic book (Mignola) version if you want a quick read.
(Not sure I have a favorite non-Conan barbarian. I'm not even the biggest Conan fan, but he certainly wins this category with ease...)
Someone mentioned Jirel of Joiry, but I would also suggest Moore's Northwest Smith. Sword & Planet not Sword & Sorcery, but very much in the same vein.
Also would add the Kothar the Barbarian stories by Gardner Fox. Some were in early issues of Dragon and there are a couple of collections. Not great, but it's the source for the D&D Lich
John Jakes Brak stories are pretty good, despite his silly name.
Charles Saunders Imaro books are also really good, if you can find them. He died before the could get them all into e-books
Adrian Cole has written several more Elak of Atlantis stories (originally by Kuttner)
The Hok stories by Manly Wade Wellman are pretty decent. More a caveman than barbarian.
Quote from: JeremyR on June 12, 2023, 10:12:21 PM
Someone mentioned Jirel of Joiry, but I would also suggest Moore's Northwest Smith. Sword & Planet not Sword & Sorcery, but very much in the same vein.
Also would add the Kothar the Barbarian stories by Gardner Fox. Some were in early issues of Dragon and there are a couple of collections. Not great, but it's the source for the D&D Lich
John Jakes Brak stories are pretty good, despite his silly name.
Charles Saunders Imaro books are also really good, if you can find them. He died before the could get them all into e-books
Adrian Cole has written several more Elak of Atlantis stories (originally by Kuttner)
The Hok stories by Manly Wade Wellman are pretty decent. More a caveman than barbarian.
Funny little anecdote about Brak. He was referenced in an old Dragon magazine article " Famous last Words", a comedy article collection of typical things a PC might say just before becoming deceased. The reference was : " Brak? Thats a stupid name for a barbarian."
Genghis Khan hands down. There are 20M asian men coming from a single male believed to be Genghis Khan. Khan killed so many people he impacted climate. If it wasn't for Khan destroying the Caliphate, its possible the Caliphate would have conquered all of Christendom. His empire comprised of the largest land empire in the history of mankind.
Conan was "cute" compared to Genghis real life exploits.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 13, 2023, 11:01:38 AM
Genghis Khan hands down. There are 20M asian men coming from a single male believed to be Genghis Khan. Khan killed so many people he impacted climate. If it wasn't for Khan destroying the Caliphate, its possible the Caliphate would have conquered all of Christendom. His empire comprised of the largest land empire in the history of mankind.
Conan was "cute" compared to Genghis real life exploits.
Of course, most of the Mongol conquests, including that of the Abbasids, came after Chinggis died in 1227, but he was an impressive and visionary leader, despite not being a particularly noteworthy fighter himself. And in fact, many experts now believe it was climate change that helped inspire the creation of the Mongol Empire because it forced them to change migratory patterns, thereby bringing them into greater contact with the peoples around them.
If you're a fan of Chinggis and the Mongols, you should check out Shark's Central Asian thread. He's a huge Mongol fanboy.
QuoteGenghis Khan hands down. There are 20M asian men coming from a single male believed to be Genghis Khan. Khan killed so many people he impacted climate. If it wasn't for Khan destroying the Caliphate, its possible the Caliphate would have conquered all of Christendom. His empire comprised of the largest land empire in the history of mankind.
Conan was "cute" compared to Genghis real life exploits.
But that's Conqueror forte not Barbarian.
If anything Genghis Khan was Anti-Barbarian - he brought his people from clannish nomadic society, and withing few decades reformed them as ruthless massive professional army, with rigid Codex of Laws, strict structures. He turned whole Steppe from Chaotic into Lawful, and as D&D teaches us Barbarian cannot be Lawful. And by Tengri Genghis was.
I'd say in old D&D term Cavalier in 4e it would be Warlord.
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Some I like.
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
John Carter of Mars. Not really a barbarian in the normal sense but the world of barsoom is very sword oriented.
One I did not like was Thongor. But I have not liked anything of Carters so far. But Darth Vader playing Thongor in the never produced movie before Conan would have been fun. Did make it to a comic and freakishly enough Captain Kangaroo read part of it??? Weird.
Carter does his best writing when talking about other people's stories. I won't recommend his fiction to anybody.
You guys haven't mentioned any of the few fantasy novels written by John Jakes. I remember thinking they weren't bad. Nothing great.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 16, 2023, 10:01:27 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Some I like.
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
John Carter of Mars. Not really a barbarian in the normal sense but the world of barsoom is very sword oriented.
One I did not like was Thongor. But I have not liked anything of Carters so far. But Darth Vader playing Thongor in the never produced movie before Conan would have been fun. Did make it to a comic and freakishly enough Captain Kangaroo read part of it??? Weird.
Carter does his best writing when talking about other people's stories. I won't recommend his fiction to anybody.
You guys haven't mentioned any of the few fantasy novels written by John Jakes. I remember thinking they weren't bad. Nothing great.
You mean Brak? He's gotten some mentions and yes I've read him. Fine, not great. Certainly better than the boundless trash of C.L. Moore.
Quote from: Persimmon on June 17, 2023, 10:41:12 AM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 16, 2023, 10:01:27 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:28:46 AM
Some I like.
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books by Leiber. I have only read a scant few, but its been interesting so far.
John Carter of Mars. Not really a barbarian in the normal sense but the world of barsoom is very sword oriented.
One I did not like was Thongor. But I have not liked anything of Carters so far. But Darth Vader playing Thongor in the never produced movie before Conan would have been fun. Did make it to a comic and freakishly enough Captain Kangaroo read part of it??? Weird.
Carter does his best writing when talking about other people's stories. I won't recommend his fiction to anybody.
You guys haven't mentioned any of the few fantasy novels written by John Jakes. I remember thinking they weren't bad. Nothing great.
You mean Brak? He's gotten some mentions and yes I've read him. Fine, not great. Certainly better than the boundless trash of C.L. Moore.
I had to go look to see what the man's name was. It's been a good 20 years since I read those books. Moore is awful; on par with Andre Norton.