I've seen a lot of negative response to many of the megadungeons that have been popping up lately, most notably dwimmermount; and a recent thread on the review of the latter has led me to this question: is there someone, an RPG writer or blogger, who you really WOULD want to see producing a megadungeon? And why?
note: for the purpose of this thread, please don't post impossible candidates (ie. someone who's dead) as suggestions; only real and currently living RPG-hobbyists.
RPGPundit
None.
I honestly just don't think the concept has legs.
As a product that is, as a campaign premise it's cool. Something to buy? Meh.
I'll never know someone else's dungeon as well as my own and I thing that shows in a game, and not in a good way.
I'd rather see more tool-kit like products.
The only one that pops right to mind for me is James Raggi... just out of curiousity to see how he'd expand his style of dungeoncrawl to such a large expanse.
Oh, and perhaps Zak S., Jack W.S. (Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque) and Jeremy Duncan (Dandy In The Underworld) who both have all written loads of things with distinctive styles that I enjoy.
Again, more out of curiosity and idea mining that something I'd run as-is.
Agreed with Piestro that I'd rather see toolkits that ready-mades though.
Zak S of dnd with pornstars (//dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com). Courtney of hack & slash (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/).
Zak for the gonzo and keeping things interesting. Courtney for the solid commitment to old school play, but pushing it through to interesting via complexity rather than getting stuck at the vanilla, reading-the-text level.
I think megadungeons are getting an unfair wrap. I have run stonehell for some time now and while it errs on the side of vanilla it is easy to use and my players have had a blast. Other great megadungeons which earn a lot of online goodwill include anomalous sub surface environment and burrowmaze. I think dwimmermount has unfairly tarnished the megadungeon. After looking through the draft I think dwimmermount will turn out fine.
I would be interested in David Bowmans dungeon. His work on a select few levels in fighton where full of character and memorable foes and he pioneered the easy to use format that stonehell makes use of.
I also would be interested in a zak s megadungeon. He isnt all random tables as his adventure sites in vornheim can atest.
Jeff Reints would be my final pick. His Wessex vampire dungeon sounded great. It would be interesting to see the Gonzo he'd bring even if I would probably tone it down at the table.
Yeah. Bowman and Rients, with it skewed heavily towards Bowman.
Bowman has produced several levels of VERY high quality. So high that I'm willing to say he has produced the best dungeons ever to see publication. Better than G1/S3. Better than Kuntz. Better than Jaquay. Several of his levels have been megadungeon levels so we can get an idea of what he'd produce. [And if he's not the best then it's at least so close that I can argue the point.]
Rients is more of a wild card. We've seen less of his work. I did get to play in his megadungeon at GaryCon last year and he does bring the strange.
The thing I would want to see most would be a classic mega dungeon, without a lot of gonzo, preferably by people who aren't doing a lot of publishing already.
My dream team would be...
Ben - I think he's leading the pack with ideas and philosophies about what a mega dungeon is as a thing unto itself with it's own logic and rationale as well as it's use as a campaign locus.
Vreeg - A world builder and "world in motion" setting specialist to rationalize the mega dungeon within the larger context of a world.
Melan - A module specialist with a very keen eye to structures of modules as pathways and processes.
Put these guys in charge of a boxed set megadungeon, you're gonna get something epic if they ever had time to do it.
the mega-dungeon always seems to be better in theory than in practice. i have not played through or read too many that weren't boring as hell or incomprehensibly stupid with regard to ecology. that said, if either calithena or david johansen wrote a mega-dungeon, i'd at least give it a look.
I'd like to see a megadungeon at least in the spirit of the original Castle Greyhawk, where as Mike Mornard has put it, the real fun was in the lower levels. Stonehell and Dwimmermount are more or less "standard" dungeons with lots of levels, rather than getting into the weird and esoteric stuff that existed for Greyhawk - both the published (EX1/2, WG6, Bottle City, Living Room) and that which is mostly rumored like the Black Reservoir and the Machine Level. See Allan Grohe's site (http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_details.html) for more detail on exactly what I'm talking about.
Back about 5 years ago when we were first talking megadungeons and discussing what the OSR should do, my feeling was that if we were focusing on megadungeons the thing that made the most sense was to put out individual levels that could be worked into a referee's megadungeon. Just because you have 10 or 16 levels with various sub-levels doesn't mean that each level is actually interesting enough to publish by itself; you need some fairly "standard" levels to balance out the weird and the wacky content unless you're just going full-bore gonzo. But despite what people seem to think, not every standard laid-out dungeon that you populate with giant rats and goblins and rooms with such non-fantastic treasures as "2000 cp" is inherently worth publishing.
So what I'd really want is for someone to put out something like a "megadungeon kit." Maybe some really interesting entrance points for the dungeon, oddities to mix into the early levels to keep them going, and some of the deeper secret levels that have hidden treasures and ancient arcane knowledge to give the characters some motivation to actually plow through the maze of deathtraps and antagonists. In other words, focus on the good stuff and leave the standard parts to the individual DM, and assume that the rest of the megadungeon probably looks like somebody just used "Dungeon Geomorphs" and "Monster & Treasure Assortment" to fill things out.
I'm hopeful that Rob Kuntz will put out more pieces in this vein, as I want as much of Castle Greyhawk as I can get, and I'm more optimistic that Allan Grohe will release his version of the Black Reservoir that he ran for some of us here in NJ at the end of last year. Keeping on the Greyhawk thing, I think it'd be absolutely brilliant if someone could put out the Machine Level or any of Gary's more unique levels, as opposed to the Store Rooms that were actually published in Castle Zagyg. If Mike Mornard published anything I'd have it in a heartbeat. And I'd buy the same from anybody else who had a good idea for a megadungeon. But I think the idea of "let's put out a ton of megadungeons" has been a bit, ah... suspect, much as I may support them from the start. For me I'll probably buy them - I have Stonehell and ASE and will have Dwimmermount whenever that comes out - but I think the special parts get lost when your focus is on quantity over quality.
I really rate the following people's work and hence would be very interested in a mega dungeon by them:
* Kevin Crawford - the best bet for someone to build concise rules for running a mega dungeon
* Melan - he brings the awesome to everything he writes
* John Turcotte (Gnarleybones from DF) writes modules with amazing atmosphere.
Quote from: RPGPundit;622849I've seen a lot of negative response to many of the megadungeons that have been popping up lately, most notably dwimmermount; and a recent thread on the review of the latter has led me to this question: is there someone, an RPG writer or blogger, who you really WOULD want to see producing a megadungeon? And why?
What I want from a megadungeon is so different from what most people seem to want that it would probably be pointless for me to say. For example, I look at the brief room/monster descriptions in Dwimmermount draft and see pretty much what I want. I don't want every room to be a half page or longer of description complete with author provided plots and interaction. Dwimmermount looks like a more boring example of a megadungeon than I was expecting, but it has the info level and the basic format right for me. I don't want info at the level of The World's Largest Dungeon (or whatever the name of that 3e megadungeon disaster was) -- but level seems closer to what others want/expect.
Quote from: CRKrueger;622873My dream team would be...
Ben - I think he's leading the pack with ideas and philosophies about what a mega dungeon is as a thing unto itself with it's own logic and rationale as well as it's use as a campaign locus.
I must admit having looked over some of his threads for ideas, he has produced stuff I could actually see myself having fun running.
Gusty's HMS Apollyon (http://dungeonofsigns.blogspot.com/2012/08/hms-apollyon-welcome-aboard.html)
It's a very cool concept - dungeon as giant cruise liner.
On the other hand, writing megadungeons is a sucking timesink of horror, so it's not for people who value their free time.
I would be down for something like "Underheim: The Complete Dungeon Kit"
I'm not too keen on OSR megadungeons, but only because I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of old TSR modules (and dungeons).
As a side note, I would shell out cash money for Gib's Metal Earth (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/) stuff. A megadungeon, even.
Quote from: Cadriel;622884Back about 5 years ago when we were first talking megadungeons and discussing what the OSR should do, my feeling was that if we were focusing on megadungeons the thing that made the most sense was to put out individual levels that could be worked into a referee's megadungeon.
You mean like the Geomorph meme started by Dyson Logos, but with full(y statted) megadungeon levels instead?
Quote from: The Were-Grognard;622900I would be down for something like "Underheim: The Complete Dungeon Kit"
Zak, there's your perfect follow-up project.
That, and "Outdoorheim: The Complete Wilderness Kit".
Count me among those not terribly interested in a megadungeon.
Instead, I'd like to see those principles applied to something like an ancient ruin. Or.... I dunno.
If I ran a megadungeon, I'd rather have a book that helped me create my own as opposed to running someone else's.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;622903You mean like the Geomorph meme started by Dyson Logos, but with full(y statted) megadungeon levels instead?
Zak, there's your perfect follow-up project.
That, and "Outdoorheim: The Complete Wilderness Kit".
I like it.
"Aquaheim: The Complete Ocean Kit"
Quote from: CRKrueger;622873Ben - I think he's leading the pack with ideas and philosophies about what a mega dungeon is as a thing unto itself with it's own logic and rationale as well as it's use as a campaign locus.
Quote from: jadrax;622896I must admit having looked over some of his threads for ideas, he has produced stuff I could actually see myself having fun running.
Thank you guys. My own megadungeon is growing steadily, and I can tell you I'll do everything I can for it to see the light of publication. I don't know how long that's going to take, there's a lot of work that remains to be done, a lot of actual play that needs doing as well, with the inevitable revisions that'll come out of it all, but what I can promise you is that I won't speed the process for the sake of a buck and I won't ask money to people for something I didn't yet design in the first place. And it'll be a megadungeon. A genuine megadungeon, or as genuine as a module format would allow it, in any case (that's a design issue from my standpoint, in and of itself).
Quote from: Benoist;622914And it'll be a megadungeon. A genuine megadungeon, or as genuine as a module format would allow it, in any case (that's a design issue from my standpoint, in and of itself).
I was looking over your very cool thread, and it reminds me of things back in the day quite a bit. I'll have to come up with some good feedback over there. Rob Kuntz stopped by there! That's always cool to see.
So, some thoughts on the products made. I have a pretty critical eye for city adventures. So, that likely colors my approach to these large dungeons.
The mega-dungeons that have been published don’t seem to suffer from a desire to publish creative ideas. Rather, they fail in the technical writing needed to bring all of the components together into a cohesive whole that may be used as intended. Taking a volume of creative content and using technical writing to bring it into a cohesive easily used whole is not an easy task. Perhaps one way one could approach this would be to present it as an extremely large version of Mike Carr’s Caverns of Quasqueton from In Search of Unknown and combine it with something like The Tome of Adventure Design by Matt Finch. The mega-dungeons about today keep attempting to present the content like a blown up Temple of the Frog, Hommlet or Caves of Chaos. The size of the mega-dungeon makes the mental juggling act needed to visualize a live campaign with that many components really unlikely for most without a different design and layout than found in small dungeons.
Edit: I didn't answer the original question. I would like one of Kuntz extra-large unpublished dungeons to see print, if there could be found a way to present the module's design and layout in a way that would preserve its game play intent.
I wish Rob Kuntz would get over being the "Faye Dunaway of Gaming" long enough to actually publish the Greyhawk Castle levels he designed and still owns the rights to (Machine Level, Boreal Level, etc.) in the same manner as was done with Bottle City, ideally with an overall schematic map and short summary of what was on the missing (i.e. Gygax-designed) levels in-between.
Quote from: Kuroth;622918I was looking over your very cool thread, and it reminds me of things back in the day quite a bit. I'll have to come up with some good feedback over there. Rob Kuntz stopped by there! That's always cool to see.
It is, for sure. And please feel free to share your feedback any time. I'd appreciate it. :)
Quote from: Kuroth;622918So, some thoughts on the products made. I have a pretty critical eye for city adventures. So, that likely colors my approach to these large dungeons.
I get that.
Quote from: Kuroth;622918The mega-dungeons that have been published don’t seem to suffer from a desire to publish creative ideas. Rather, they fail in the technical writing needed to bring all of the components together into a cohesive whole that may be used as intend. Taking a volume of creative content and using technical writing to bring it into a cohesive easily used whole is not an easy task.
It's not.
Quote from: Kuroth;622918Perhaps one way one could approach this would be to present it as an extremely large version of Mike Carr’s Caverns of Quasqueton from In Search of Unknown and combine it with something like The Tome of Adventure Design by Matt Finch. The mega-dungeons about today keep attempting to present the content like a blown up Temple of the Frog, Hommlet or Caves of Chaos. The size of the mega-dungeon makes the mental juggling act needed to visualize a live campaign with that many components really unlikely for most without a different design and layout than found in small dungeons.
I think it could be done in a variety of ways, combining different components and approaches. I think some of it has to do with expectations on the DMs' parts, which pretty much demand some aspect of "format authenticity", especially with respect to some quarters of the "old school" dungeoneering crowd (you've read this stuff before: "the description format should be this way, not that way, there shouldn't be this or that otherwise it sucks, it's useless, and I won't run it"), whereas making some of the things which were implicit in the dungeon formats of old explicit now with a variety of components that help bring the place alive not only at the game table, but in the DM's brain, would require some rethinking of that format itself.
I'm cool with the traditional dungeon format by the way. I like anything from Tegel Manor to the Hidden Shrine of Tomaochan like many other dungeoneering DMs who'd "like the good stuff", you know. I want to keep seeing those kinds of modules, and would like to write some of that stuff myself in the future, because when you have the right approach as a DM, it just works. That's it. Period.
It doesn't work for everyone, however. What I'd like to do as well is bring some tweaks to the presentation and format which would hopefully help bring the environment alive for the DM prepping and running the stuff. There are several components to this: the ability for the DM to comprehend the environment on a macro as well as a micro scale, the detail of the descriptions, the way they are written, the way they involve game mechanics, the way they relate to one another to create a web or tapestry level per level and across them. I could go on. Let's just say that yes, there's ample room for innovation in that regard.
I understand and agree with what you are saying here. That's for sure. We definitely always need cool new normal sized dungeons done in the usual ways! These true mega-dungeons have special issues, as we both mention. Holding the micro and the macro at the same time is what makes for great DMing. Don't get gun shy thinking about the challenge of put it all together! I look forward to reading your updates over on your thread.
My own.
Ben's efforts are immensely inspirational and I still intend to find the time to follow in the footsteps he's been laying out over at this epic thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=504466&postcount=21).
Quote from: Kuroth;622925I understand and agree with what you are saying here. That's for sure. We definitely always need cool new normal sized dungeons done in the usual ways! These true mega-dungeons have special issues, as we both mention. Holding the micro and the macro at the same time is what makes for great DMing. Don't get gun shy thinking about the challenge of put it all together! I look forward to reading your updates over on your thread.
I'll get back to it soon. Feel free to leave your feedback there any time.
Quote from: The Butcher;622928My own.
Here's my answer to the OP: I want to see the Butcher's mega-dungeon come to life and kick all kinds of asses!
Quote from: Benoist;622935Here's my answer to the OP: I want to see the Butcher's mega-dungeon come to life and kick all kinds of asses!
Thanks. You've set the bar pretty high, mister.
Quote from: Kuroth;622918The mega-dungeons that have been published don't seem to suffer from a desire to publish creative ideas. Rather, they fail in the technical writing needed to bring all of the components together into a cohesive whole that may be used as intended.
Any specifics? And feel free to call me out if I'm your example.
There's only a handful out there. I disagree that there are big problems publishing them, other than the sheer volume of work involved. When I read most of the proposed ways to publish a megadungeon "properly" (by people who don't publish, usually, so more theorizing there than actual practice), it mostly seems to me like shortcuts so you don't have to write as much.
Quote from: PatW;622951When I read most of the proposed ways to publish a megadungeon "properly" (by people who don't publish, usually, so more theorizing there than actual practice), it mostly seems to me like shortcuts so you don't have to write as much.
Any specifics? That remark puzzled me.
I think a good megadungeon product should start with the kind of quick-but-complete list of contents you might find in a review, like:
"Ok, the first level is mostly goblins and a few goblin traps and then there are a couple access points to the 2nd and 3rd levels.
The 2nd level has a weird water trap/puzzle (p 93) which is the centerpiece of the whole lower half and also the first really difficult monster and also introduces the idea that the frog-demons are fighting the insect-demons, it has several sort of 'spooky' traps, if you want an idea of what they're like, check page 54..."
One thing that I hate is when you pretty much have to read all the way through a dungeon just to get an honest holistic view of how its put together and what it's like. With megadungeons its way worse because the whole point is they're long.
After that, I think the rooms themselves should be in Stonehell/One Page Dungeon format.
Quote from: Benoist;622955Any specifics? That jab puzzles me.
Didn't intend it as a jab. Here are some of the ideas floating around that I'm not fond of:
a. The idea that a megadungeon should be a collection of advice on how to run the dungeon with less focus on the contents of the dungeon. You move monsters around in reaction to players in a semi-sensible way - that doesn't need much more than a paragraph or two, if you even include it. If your dungeon is piles of combat encounters then I guess you could go this sort of direction, but I like the ratios presented in Moldvay for traps & specials - which weight the dungeon very heavy towards detailed rooms.
b. The idea that dungeons should be more table-driven. Tables are great when you need to wing it, but if it's a dungeon level I'm paying for, I really want somebody else to do the work properly.
This is a collection of "past impressions" over a few years of reading forum threads and blog posts, so it's probably a caricature of peoples' real positions.
Overall I think that the TSR-era published module format works really well for megadungeons 90% of the time.
Since I'm griping, another thing I don't like is the notion that a dungeon with monsters in only 33% of the rooms is empty. If you go by the tables in Moldvay Basic (I don't have OD&D so I can't say what went on in there), those "empty" rooms have traps, treasures, and "specials" - in actuality only 16% of rooms are truly empty, in the sense they have nothing of interest.
Quote from: PatW;622959Didn't intend it as a jab.
Yeah, sorry. I immediately reworded it afterwards.
Quote from: PatW;622959Here are some of the ideas floating around that I'm not fond of:
a. The idea that a megadungeon should be a collection of advice on how to run the dungeon with less focus on the contents of the dungeon. You move monsters around in reaction to players in a semi-sensible way - that doesn't need much more than a paragraph or two, if you even include it. If your dungeon is piles of combat encounters then I guess you could go this sort of direction, but I like the ratios presented in Moldvay for traps & specials - which weight the dungeon very heavy towards detailed rooms.
b. The idea that dungeons should be more table-driven. Tables are great when you need to wing it, but if it's a dungeon level I'm paying for, I really want somebody else to do the work properly.
I agree on both counts.
About (a) specifically, I don't think you've got to either basically change a module into an "how to" kind of advice OR you have the TSR kind of format we all know where this stuff remains strictly implicit. There are other ways to present the information in an actually useful way, with the design itself, the description of areas themselves and the like. I think that going all out into a manual format would be a bad thing as well.
Quote from: PatW;622959Overall I think that the TSR-era published module format works really well for megadungeons 90% of the time.
The TSR format works for some DMs. That's a fact. It doesn't mean it's the optimal format for every user out there, however. I think there's room for variations and different ways to present the environment, some of which might be more useful for different types of DMs out there.
Quote from: PatW;622959Since I'm griping, another thing I don't like is the notion that a dungeon with monsters in only 33% of the rooms is empty. If you go by the tables in Moldvay Basic (I don't have OD&D so I can't say what went on in there), those "empty" rooms have traps, treasures, and "specials" - in actuality only 16% of rooms are truly empty, in the sense they have nothing of interest.
It's an art, not a science. I completely agree that kind of advice shouldn't be taken as a "it must be the case or it's bad" kind of thing. It'd be missing the forest for the trees. The point is variety, the variation of contents and treasures and monsters and traps and not. After, I think DMs can and should find their own personal sweet spot themselves.
Quote from: Zak S;622958One thing that I hate is when you pretty much have to read all the way through a dungeon just to get an honest holistic view of how its put together and what it's like. With megadungeons its way worse because the whole point is they're long.
I hear you, the problem in practice is that a short list like that is mostly meaningless when you've then got 100+ rooms for the level. Megadungeons take prep even when somebody else writes them - a lot of stuff interconnects. It's a function of combinatorics (is that a word? 4 years spent getting a math degree and all lost)
Quote from: Zak S;622958After that, I think the rooms themselves should be in Stonehell/One Page Dungeon format.
I'm not enamored of One Page Dungeons. I like Stonehell, but a lot of authorial intent is lost - tons of detail is now left for the DM to come up with on the fly.
His best work is in the not-just-one-page parts where he lists his detailed traps and tricks, the one-page parts read like a monster catalog. It also limits the number of complex traps & specials you can put in, because you're constrained on space.
Quote from: PatW;622973I hear you, the problem in practice is that a short list like that is mostly meaningless when you've then got 100+ rooms for the level. Megadungeons take prep even when somebody else writes them - a lot of stuff interconnects. It's a function of combinatorics (is that a word? 4 years spent getting a math degree and all lost)
I'm not enamored of One Page Dungeons. I like Stonehell, but a lot of authorial intent is lost - tons of detail is now left for the DM to come up with on the fly.
His best work is in the not-just-one-page parts where he lists his detailed traps and tricks, the one-page parts read like a monster catalog. It also limits the number of complex traps & specials you can put in, because you're constrained on space.
I think there SHOULD be space given over to complicated rooms, but if a room isn't complicated, I hate seeing space wasted on it. Just put it there and go "WC" and move on.
As for the holistic descriptions: there is still a lot of meaningful description that an author can and should do for GMs.
Like:
if you built a funhouse dungeon where the puzzles are random and make no sense
say that. if you built a Thracia-style dungeon with interacting factions
say that if you have some ideas and themes woven in,
say what they areif you built a goofy dungeon where the orcs are like builders in construction hats making the dungeon bigger
say thatif it's a meatgrinder with no puzzles but lots of monsters and traps
say thatif the dungeon has politics and shit
say thata dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.
Quote from: Zak S;623001a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.
Yes, I like that sort of thing for any published adventure. Reading through those things is often like looking at a jumble of puzzle pieces and trying to figure out that it's meant to be the Mona Lisa. A quick overview at the start would save a lot of time in digesting the thing and ensure that I start off with the correct assumptions.
Maybe this matters more for people who mean to run the thing vs. folks who are reading it as a proxy for actually getting to play it.
So Zak, when can you have Underheim, Outdoorheim and Aquaheim ready by?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;623059So Zak, when can you have Underheim, Outdoorheim and Aquaheim ready by?
RPGPundit
I kept hoping someone else would do those, but they haven't. So...
Currently on the plate is A Red And Pleasant Land (AKA "Eat Me") which is AWholeCountryHeim but will have several modular bits and bobs (100 Lewis Carrolly trick rooms f'rinstance)- useful for any dungeons or wilderness and which will have 2 biggish (but not mega) 50-75 room dungeons in it.
After that is done and printed I will see what's what and start planning the next thing--what I put out will depend on what kind of tools seem like they'd be useful in my home campaign.
The closest thing to Aquaheim is probably this:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/04/wavecrawl-kit.html
which has served my "getting from one continent to the other with something interesting in the middle" needs so far well enough and is automated here http://www.random-generator.com/index.php?title=Today_At_Sea .
It’s good to read the discussion on bringing these mega-dungeons into publishable form, which is a much different thing than making a dungeon for one’s own use.
Quote from: PatW;622951When I read most of the proposed ways to publish a megadungeon "properly" (by people who don't publish, usually, so more theorizing there than actual practice), it mostly seems to me like shortcuts so you don't have to write as much.
It’s not so much about properly or not, but rather taking the creative content and bringing it all together in a design and layout that allows as many DM readers to use the product in at least one intended way.
Quote from: Zak S;622958One thing that I hate is when you pretty much have to read all the way through a dungeon just to get an honest holistic view of how its put together and what it's like. With megadungeons its way worse because the whole point is they're long.
Quote from: Benoist;622966The TSR format works for some DMs. That's a fact. It doesn't mean it's the optimal format for every user out there, however. I think there's room for variations and different ways to present the environment, some of which might be more useful for different types of DMs out there.
Yes, this is really the trouble. It is even one of the problems with something small like Hommlet. Ya, a bunch of us were able to get all of those containers of content into a living adventure, but it is a real hurdle for many. That issue becomes exponentially more challenging with these mega-dungeons.
Quote from: PatW;622973I'm not enamored of One Page Dungeons. I like Stonehell, but a lot of authorial intent is lost - tons of detail is now left for the DM to come up with on the fly.
This is the trouble with publishing something like Castle Greyhawk. It is really easy to lose the intent of the adventures and campaign. I’m certain it is the reason Kuntz has always been hesitant to publish his old big dungeons.
Quote from: Zak S;623001...a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.
Quote from: Zak S;623068Currently on the plate is A Red And Pleasant Land (AKA "Eat Me") which is AWholeCountryHeim but will have several modular bits and bobs (100 Lewis Carrolly trick rooms f'rinstance)- useful for any dungeons or wilderness and which will have 2 biggish (but not mega) 50-75 room dungeons in it.
After that is done and printed I will see what's what and start planning the next thing--what I put out will depend on what kind of tools seem like they'd be useful in my home campaign.
Always good to see your stuff Zak. You are doing a lot to try and over come the challenges of these very large settings. As much as the mega-dungeons are cool, I am greatly looking forward to any new cities you may choose to pen!
It's been done, already, up-thread but "my own".
I have much to do to finish Castle Delve; I know the broad strokes of it but it's the little greeblies (like stocking the "tomb level" and the "Forgotten World" level, f'rex.) that takes up so much time.
Megadungeons are 99% forum wank and 1% actual play.
In 30+ years, I have never found a group who would be interested in delving into the same place more than a month or two of game play before getting terribly bored. Even my old group of Wizardry fans barely go through our Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord campaign.
I find most groups would rather play ten 1 page dungeons than one 10 page dungeon.
Quote from: Spinachcat;623139I find most groups would rather play ten 1 page dungeons than one 10 page dungeon.
Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?
Quote from: Zak S;623001...
a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.
This is my preference--if I'm paying money for that sort of big product I expect an executive summary at the very least. OTOH I'm not a megadungeons customer. Big fan of tools though, so if your next product contains content similar to Vornheim then I'll probably buy it.
Quote from: smiorgan;623141This is my preference--if I'm paying money for that sort of big product I expect an executive summary at the very least. OTOH I'm not a megadungeons customer. Big fan of tools though, so if your next product contains content similar to Vornheim then I'll probably buy it.
Seconded - I'd honestly much rather have tools to help me quickly and efficiently build my own dungeons (mega or mini) than someone else's megadungeon so I'm definitely looking forward to whatever you come up with, Zak.
Quote from: Cadriel;622884Back about 5 years ago when we were first talking megadungeons and discussing what the OSR should do, my feeling was that if we were focusing on megadungeons the thing that made the most sense was to put out individual levels that could be worked into a referee's megadungeon.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;622903You mean like the Geomorph meme started by Dyson Logos, but with full(y statted) megadungeon levels instead?
Don't know if that's Cadriel meant, but I know I was pushing for a geomorph-like modular megadungeon. Basic idea is that you have modular zones built around a unique room with tricks, unusual features, unique monsters, surrounded by a few supporting rooms in each geomorph. There's a lot of in-between space that connects the zones, which you could draw by hand, generate randomly, or fill in with geomorphs; these would be randomly stocked with treasure, traps and monsters of the more generic sort. Each person's megadungeon would be different. There would also be separate lists of the major movers and shakers and artifacts of the megadungeon, so that you can grasp the overall concept of what's going on (or even alter what's going on) without needing to sift through individual entries.
I started to do something like this, but didn't get very far: only did three "megamodules".
Great Spiral Stair (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2012/01/megamodule-great-spiral-stair.html)
Abandoned Wizard's Library (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2012/01/megamodule-abandoned-wizards-library.html)
Rotating Circular Chamber (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2012/01/megamodule-rotating-circular-chamber.html)
Edit: Well, that's interesting. I just checked the Google Docs links that are in those blogposts and it looks like Google did something to the docs. They no longer include maps and the formatting is screwed up.
Quote from: Zak S;623140Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?
The live one at the bottom eating his way out?
I don't think I own anything that qualifies as a 'megadungeon' at this point... though I've been repeatedly tempted buy the Rappan Athuk thingie.
What I have ran and played and enjoyed were big outdoor 'dungeons' like The Big Rubble for Runequest and Parlainth in Earthdawn's Barsaive. Both have a HUGE city in ruins (with scattered mini-dungeons througout) and an attached frontier town full of thugs seeking their fortunes therein.
Recently our group was in and out of Parlainth for months, eventually delving down to its deepest roots in pursuit of our nemesis. I think it kept our interest because it had a home base nearby, was not static and was full of competing factions. It also gave us the closest thing to a TPK we'd ever had... and that was at the hands of another party of adventurers.
Much of our time there was like a standard dungeoncrawl... but always broken up by other non-dungeon events and encounters.
I'm working on a similar location for my homebrew setting and keeping those two classics in mind.
Quote from: Zak S;623140Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?
Don't you mean "what's better"???
Quote from: Zak S;623140Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?
None.
I was going to guess genitile warts.
Quote from: Spinachcat;623139Megadungeons are 99% forum wank and 1% actual play.
In 30+ years, I have never found a group who would be interested in delving into the same place more than a month or two of game play before getting terribly bored. Even my old group of Wizardry fans barely go through our Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord campaign.
I find most groups would rather play ten 1 page dungeons than one 10 page dungeon.
That was a good drumbreak.
I think your guess at a percentage is generous. Megadungeons are vanishingly rare in the wild.
I haven't met any players who are willing to play in one and that sucks. I like to do my forum wank in person.
To voice some honesty, my players enjoy mostly things no larger than what might be called a lair, about the size of a mansion or large villa, usually set in a city or other city like environment. I think I would have to amp up the weirdness factor pretty high to keep them involved in any large structure. I was thinking today how Metamorphosis Alpha is an example of how to publish a mega-dungeon too, and there isn't much more of a heritage game than that.
4 sessions in one dungeon is more than enough.
The way they are doing it right now with Kusu's Cove (in my Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea game), the players are basically switching back and forth between (A) some character-interactions, info-seeking sessions in the village of the Cove, (B) sessions exploring a system of caverns and complex (dungeon) they uncovered somewhere along the rim of the Cove, and (C) some larger scale battle/siege action with the Crabmen they made friends with in the caverns they explored (leading them to a more hex map based wilderness down below, and more of a large forces assaulting each other, war time vibe in the depths). It's working great for us, and yes, Kusu's Cove basically is a mega-dungeon sandbox (albeit a small one, though it'd be quite large compared to most published offerings).
Quote from: Benoist;623662The way they are doing it right now with Kusu's Cove (in my Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea game), the players are basically switching back and forth between (A) role playing sessions in the village of the Cove, (B) sessions exploring a system of caverns and complex (dungeon) they uncovered somewhere along the rim of the Cove, and (C) some larger scale battle/siege action with the Crabmen they made friends with in the caverns they explored (leading them to a more hex map based wilderness down below, and more of a large forces assaulting each other, war time vibe in the depths). It's working great for us, and yes, Kusu's Cove basically is a mega-dungeon sandbox (albeit a small one, though it'd be quite large compared to most published offerings).
Some of my city adventures ran a bit like this too, with running about the city and the under-city, while all sorts of other things are going on at the same time. At what point is a city a dungeon and a space station a forest? Whatever makes for a good session for everyone and not worrying about these terms.
Serious question: is the Temple of Elemental Evil considered a megadungeon by the megadungeon crowd of the OSR?
Quote from: Drohem;623679Serious question: is the Temple of Elemental Evil considered a megadungeon by the megadungeon crowd of the OSR?
It presents the setting for such a megadungeon campaign, IF extrapolated upon, taken as a starting point, not an end in and of itself. As written, the Temple is more of a really big dungeon, not a megadungeon. The megadungeon finds its source in The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, volume 3 of OD&D (1974), as far as I'm concerned, and finds actual historical references in game places like Castle Greyhawk and Blackmoor (the actually played versions, not the published mock-ups), rather than the Temple.
I would like a megadungeon where, as I flip through the book, the left page is a map with sufficient detail that I can see there is a table and 3 chairs or whatnot and the right page is an extremely terse key.
Quote from: Simlasa;622852Oh, and perhaps Zak S., Jack W.S. (Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque) and Jeremy Duncan (Dandy In The Underworld) who both have all written loads of things with distinctive styles that I enjoy.
Again, more out of curiosity and idea mining that something I'd run as-is.
That's awful flattering, but I doubt I'll ever do a megadungeon. Most of my games have much smaller locations...I mostly do lairs and manor houses.
Quote from: Old One Eye;623689I would like a megadungeon where, as I flip through the book, the left page is a map with sufficient detail that I can see there is a table and 3 chairs or whatnot and the right page is an extremely terse key.
I'll consider that for my own project. Although I'll warn you, I'm considering jumping back and forth on levels of detail for my project: level cutaway, then wide-area map of several sub-levels and regions, then narrower map of one region, then individual maps at the detail you're talking about, but only for the "Saturday Night Specials". All built around the whole modular design thing, so the precise location of each Saturday Night Special isn't set in stone, and other rooms aren't pre-keyed, but instead there's a "floating key" of what the rooms can contain.
I don't know of anyone else who's working on that approach to a megadungeon, so I can't point to an example.
Quote from: The Were-Grognard;622900I would be down for something like "Underheim: The Complete Dungeon Kit"
I'm not too keen on OSR megadungeons, but only because I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of old TSR modules (and dungeons).
As a side note, I would shell out cash money for Gib's Metal Earth (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/) stuff. A megadungeon, even.
When the time comes it will be free.
Quote from: Gib;623718When the time comes it will be free.
Don't be a shithead. Kickstarter that bitch. Just don't sell poor Autarch another bill of goods.
The only people I'd be interested in buying any kind of dungeon off would be Joeskythedungeonbrawler or John Higgins. Humour and variety, everything else is just more of the same.
Quote from: FASERIP;623721Don't be a shithead. Kickstarter that bitch. Just don't sell poor Autarch another bill of goods.
What's shitheaddy about giving stuff away for free? I'd rather more hobbyists did that than kid themselves that their gaming material deserves - nay,
demands - to be released as a professional product.
Quote from: Gib;623718When the time comes it will be free.
Sweet, doing the Hexographer map for it was fun. If you want any more of that kind of thing G, don't hesitate to ask :D Metal Earth is dang cool.
I'd LOVE to see Pete Spahn take a crack at a megadungeon, but I doubt the poor guy would have the time :( .
Quote from: Warthur;623766What's shitheaddy about giving stuff away for free? I'd rather more hobbyists did that than kid themselves that their gaming material deserves - nay, demands - to be released as a professional product.
Pretentiousness aside, why not get paid for good work? (Not that free isn't nice)
If I produced anything that I perceived had value, I would certainly charge for it.
I imagine sales would let me know whether this was true :P
I have gained all the value i feel I deserve by making and sharing. Were I ever to publish comics or fiction, even if I self-publish, i'll charge, but the gamestuff is just fun to do and so I've already gotten what I want out of it. Fun. Motherfuckers.
Quote from: Gib;623852I have gained all the value i feel I deserve by making and sharing. Were I ever to publish comics or fiction, even if I self-publish, i'll charge, but the gamestuff is just fun to do and so I've already gotten what I want out of it. Fun. Motherfuckers.
All kidding aside, seeing the "I"-capitalization fluctuate in your post, I'm concerned about what value you do assign to yourself.
Aos, you're a beloved member of this community. We just want to nurture that rich inner life of yours* because your sharing of it been so rewarding to all of us.
And nothing nurtures the soul like money. That's why they call it money.
* Or at least make sure your caps-lock or shift key is working.
NB: If you do a Kickstarter (I know, I know), please leave Tavis out of it. Between his twins and Dwimmermount, he's gonna have a fucking aneurysm.
I'm posting on a tablet and I suck with the shift key, even on a real keyboard.
Quote from: Gib;623718When the time comes it will be free.
And that's exactly what I'd pay for it.
That's not a slight on you - that's pretty much how I feel about most gaming shit.
Who's megadungeon would I want to see? Only my own. The idea of running someone else's campaign dungeon sounds about as appealing as milking a bull.
Making the megadungeon,
then running it? Now that's tits.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;623891And that's exactly what I'd pay for it.
That's not a slight on you - that's pretty much how I feel about most gaming shit.
Who's megadungeon would I want to see? Only my own. The idea of running someone else's campaign dungeon sounds about as appealing as milking a bull.
Making the megadungeon, then running it? Now that's tits.
You get it.
Quote from: Zak S;623068I kept hoping someone else would do those, but they haven't. So...
Currently on the plate is A Red And Pleasant Land (AKA "Eat Me") which is AWholeCountryHeim but will have several modular bits and bobs (100 Lewis Carrolly trick rooms f'rinstance)- useful for any dungeons or wilderness and which will have 2 biggish (but not mega) 50-75 room dungeons in it.
After that is done and printed I will see what's what and start planning the next thing--what I put out will depend on what kind of tools seem like they'd be useful in my home campaign.
The closest thing to Aquaheim is probably this:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/04/wavecrawl-kit.html
which has served my "getting from one continent to the other with something interesting in the middle" needs so far well enough and is automated here http://www.random-generator.com/index.php?title=Today_At_Sea .
Excellent! I'll be looking forward to seeing what you produce; hope you send me a review copy when the time comes.
Quote from: Sigmund;623780I'd LOVE to see Pete Spahn take a crack at a megadungeon, but I doubt the poor guy would have the time :( .
Spahn's Ghoul Keep is a very large dungeon, and its quite good. I very recently reviewed it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;623958Excellent! I'll be looking forward to seeing what you produce; hope you send me a review copy when the time comes.
I'm sure Hypemaster Raggi has you on a list somewhere.
Quote from: RPGPundit;623969Spahn's Ghoul Keep is a very large dungeon, and its quite good. I very recently reviewed it.
RPGPundit
Ooo, I'll have to check out your review, thanks :D
For my part, I'm not that interested in the megadungeon. I like small to middle/large range dungeons; but I find that my gaming group gets burnt out on a dungeon if they spend more than about three sessions covering it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;624549For my part, I'm not that interested in the megadungeon. I like small to middle/large range dungeons; but I find that my gaming group gets burnt out on a dungeon if they spend more than about three sessions covering it.
RPGPundit
Running a megadungeon campaign doesn't mean that the players have to explore the dungeon exclusively and/or have to stay there session after session after session. IMO, setting things up in that way is pretty much guaranteed to result in a players' burn out pretty fast. Extreme designs which would specifically address those potential pitfalls aside, it's pretty much the way I would advise NOT to run a megadungeon campaign, in fact.
Quote from: Benoist;624550Running a megadungeon campaign doesn't mean that the players have to explore the dungeon exclusively and/or have to stay there session after session after session. IMO, setting things up in that way is pretty much guaranteed to result in a players' burn out pretty fast. Extreme designs which would specifically address those potential pitfalls aside, it's pretty much the way I would advise NOT to run a megadungeon campaign, in fact.
I know, and yet it still doesn't do much for my players. I don't think megadungeons, even run well, are for every kind of party.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;624649I know, and yet it still doesn't do much for my players. I don't think megadungeons, even run well, are for every kind of party.
RPGPundit
Yes, I'll agree not everyone will be satisfied by the mega-dungeon experience, even when run well.
I think there is a niche for dungeons which aren't genuinely campaign-defining, but which are large enough to sustain a campaign arc and provide the benefits of megadungeons (e.g. complexity and emergent gameplay). Tomb of Abysthor is a good example, even if it predates what most people call "the OSR".
Actually, this weekend, I resurrected a project of mine that's in this ballpark. We will see how far I get with it.
As for me, I certainly would never try to write up a megadungeon book or the likes.
I strongly prefer giving people tables and tools with which to create their own dungeons. In Arrows of Indra I present a significant chapter full of details and lots and lots of cave-generation tables when I talk about the Patala Underworld, the "Megadungeon"-like complex of subterranean worlds below the surface of the earth. It was the original underdark, really, 7 levels of 40000km each of cave complexes, ranging from claustrophobic labyrinths of tunnels to gigantic caverns the size of small countries.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;624978As for me, I certainly would never try to write up a megadungeon book or the likes.
I strongly prefer giving people tables and tools with which to create their own dungeons. In Arrows of Indra I present a significant chapter full of details and lots and lots of cave-generation tables when I talk about the Patala Underworld, the "Megadungeon"-like complex of subterranean worlds below the surface of the earth. It was the original underdark, really, 7 levels of 40000km each of cave complexes, ranging from claustrophobic labyrinths of tunnels to gigantic caverns the size of small countries.
RPGPundit
Oh ya, the Patala Underworld! I forgot about that part of the setting. That's a cool bit.
Quote from: Kuroth;624979Oh ya, the Patala Underworld! I forgot about that part of the setting. That's a cool bit.
Yeah.. my group is currently adventuring there.
RPGPundit
You know, the more I think about it providing the setting justification, and maybe leave in the PHB or DMG the tools on how to expand a dungeon to mega size, might be the best way to do it.
Still going through Land of Intrigue for FR 2e, and I find the very idea of Shoon - ancient capital megapolis of a cruel and decadent human empire controlling Calimshan, Tethyr, & Amn - an inspiring justification for a megadungeon. Throw in an over view map suggesting the city and its suburban districts, all supposedly occupied by Mythal (wild magic) and monsters, and it's an excellent spread to regionalize "dungeon areas." Further, city districts, and hidden catacombs & sewers underneath, can spawn additional justifications to return for more than just generic treasure hunting.
I think the idea of it being surrounded by forts, and in general being such a lasting fixture upon the land, means there's no real pressure to "solve it all in one go before someone else gets the best treasure." It becomes like an anti-city, a foothold of opposing (monster) civilization encroaching on spheres of safe order. However, I also see how part of its magic is being undefined, like a dream...
So maybe that's what bugs me most about dungeons in general, which could apply to megadungeons. I need a good reason to entice my players in, and I need it to be cohesive in concept. Further, it has to be its own anti-civilization ecology. Defining down to every last starving snake and copper encrusted debris somehow sucks out a lot of its magic (you'd think the starving snake would leave at least). And finally, it has to be ignorable at times so that the party can take a break.
Just musing out my own thoughts on my near visceral dislike of such products.
Quote from: RPGPundit;624978In Arrows of Indra I present a significant chapter full of details and lots and lots of cave-generation tables when I talk about the Patala Underworld, the "Megadungeon"-like complex of subterranean worlds below the surface of the earth. It was the original underdark, really, 7 levels of 40000km each of cave complexes, ranging from claustrophobic labyrinths of tunnels to gigantic caverns the size of small countries.
Oh, yeah, that right there amps my interest in AoI even higher. There's a version of Patala in my homebrew but only a handful of players have ever gotten near it so it never got much of a fleshing out... it's been more of a source than a destination, so far.
Quote from: Simlasa;625380Oh, yeah, that right there amps my interest in AoI even higher. There's a version of Patala in my homebrew but only a handful of players have ever gotten near it so it never got much of a fleshing out... it's been more of a source than a destination, so far.
When you want the good stuff to come into play, make it accessible.
You'll see. It works wonders.
Quote from: Benoist;625381When you want the good stuff to come into play, make it accessible.
You'll see. It works wonders.
Oh, it's accessible, but it keeps scaring folks away... probably because I shoved those creepy Frankenstein dwarves from Cadwallon into it. I guess 'too scary' might be a form of 'no access'. They keep planning to go back but never do.
Quote from: Simlasa;625383Oh, it's accessible, but it keeps scaring folks away... probably because I shoved those creepy Frankenstein dwarves from Cadwallon into it. I guess 'too scary' might be a form of 'no access'...
It is, psychologically so.
The Patala underworld is supposed to be scary as shit. In AoI its clearly intended for mid-level play. I mean, you're entirely likely to encounter a nest of demons on the first level of the underworld, so we're talking about parties that must have at least a serious amount of magic.
At low-level play, you want to adventure in civilized areas: in cities or surrounding countryside; then after that maybe try out forests, surface ruins, bandit camps, etc.
The Patala Underworld is for when you've made it to around level 5-7 as a minimum. Its where you go once you've been around the block a bit, and are ready to try to get the "big score". Its really easy to die down there, but of course if you find a cave of Glowing Patala Gems, or an Asura Succubus' treasure hoard (without getting the life sucked out of you), and can get back to the surface from there, you're set for life.
RPGPundit
I would really, really like to get my hands on Kent's Aione(sp?) megadungeon.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625584I would really, really like to get my hands on Kent's Aione(sp?) megadungeon.
Kent? as in... the guy who keeps sockpuppetting us to shit on Zac?
Kent is layered, like an onion.
Quote from: RPGPundit;625794Kent? as in... the guy who keeps sockpuppetting us to shit on Zac?
Why, yes, didn't you know that he blogs about his world Agonmayar and his megadungeon-mapping?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9d8STM4Yv9A/UGoJ6xbfE8I/AAAAAAAABWo/X9Kdw5USNl8/s640/1.jpg)
From here (http://somekingskent.blogspot.de/2012/10/the-ultromantane.html).
Gaming in Aione (http://somekingskent.blogspot.de/2012/10/gaming-in-aione-so-shutting-blog-for.html)
Augmenting Megadungeon Map (http://somekingskent.blogspot.de/2010/11/augmenting-megadungeon-map-now-conduit.html)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bGv08E_DVCA/T9ph65O-1NI/AAAAAAAABB0/sUvfKEmrYd0/s640/High+Wilds.jpg)
From Map Aesthetics and Detail for The High Wilds (http://somekingskent.blogspot.de/2012/06/map-aesthetics-and-detail-for-high.html)
Map of Africa in the manner of Judges Guild Wilderlands (http://somekingskent.blogspot.de/2013/01/africa-affryqq-in-manner-of-judges.html)
Nice-to-look-at maps.
Quote from: RPGPundit;625794Kent? as in... the guy who keeps sockpuppetting us to shit on Zac?
The very same. His Aoine stuff is actually very inspired and stimulating, creatively speaking.
Fascinating. Almost all of these hopeless trolls and celebrity-haters are also notorious for their utter lack of talent... I guess he's the exception that proves the rule...
RPGPundit
So I jumped through all these pages, and there are relatively few authors listed as potential bestselling megadungeon creators. Hm. I vote for Kuntz, Jaquays and why not? Tracy Hickman. The original Ravenloft module rocked.
Self and thread necro just to say that I agree with Cadriel mostly. I'd like to see a few levels of dungeons from easily a hundred people at this point. But I'm not as enthusiastic about a whole and complete megadungeon in one go as I used to be. I think Fight On!'s megadungeon was/is ideal in this sense.
Matt Finch's Mythrus Tower (OD&D/S&W), easily. He's run scores and scores of players through the first five levels of it since it became a regular fixture at NTRPG Con in 2010. I've played in it three times myself. It's a nice mixture of funny, deadly and genuinely interesting situations and rooms. Unfortunately, it'll never be published and probably wouldn't be the same anyway.
Quote from: Fiasco;622887* Kevin Crawford - the best bet for someone to build concise rules for running a mega dungeon
Seconded. I'd buy anything by Mr. Crawford as his quality of work is outstanding.
Also, anything from Autarch will be very welcome (again, very high production quality).
People who make awesome settings aren't necessarily the people who make awesome megadungeons; I think there are two different skill-sets involved.