Who is the Ultimate Arbiter: The System, or the GM?

droog · March 23, 2009, 09:57:02 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;292156So most d20 Traveller players already have an investment in their PCs right out of the gate.

That's exactly why that table needs to be revised.

jeff37923 · March 23, 2009, 09:59:17 PM

Quote from: droog;292157That's exactly why that table needs to be revised.

And deprotagonise Jumpspace? NEVER!

The Shaman · March 23, 2009, 10:04:25 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;292156I'd say a lot depends on the system being used. Basic D&D or Labyrinth Lord, you can have new PC ready in five minutes.

Agreed - this is definitely one of the reasons I tend to favor games toward the rules-light end of the scale.

Quote from: jeff37923d20 Traveller is a special case for PC creation. First, it is d20 with all the skill choices and special abilities to fill in. Second, most characters start out with a prior history that must be taken care of (the average PC is in his thirties to forties with about three to six terms of four years each of experience - which means XP which then become levels that have to be accomodated). Character creation usually takes an entire session. So most d20 Traveller players already have an investment in their PCs right out of the gate.

Fair 'nuf.

Btw, this is main reason I don't care for T20.

TPK in original Traveller? We're operational again in ten minutes.

Quote from: droog;292157That's exactly why that table needs to be revised.

Sounds like.

Quote from: jeff37923;292159And deprotagonise Jumpspace? NEVER!

Sigmund · March 23, 2009, 10:23:37 PM

Quote from: droog;292050Shit happens. Hell, in first ed. Traveller your chr could die before reaching the table. Of course, that hasn't proved a popular approach to chrgen.

Well if that's how ya wanna roll in your games then have at it. I usually like to get into at least a little bit of the action before getting wiped out, although we did get wiped out more than once.

Sigmund · March 23, 2009, 10:31:20 PM

Quote from: Stuart;292053If you can't accept the results of a dice roll, you shouldn't be rolling the dice. Good advice for players, and doubly good for GMs who claim to be wearing a Viking helmet.

If by good advice you mean meaningless and arrogant. Who are you tell the rest of us how to roll dice, or anything else for that matter? If I wanna roll dice and accept any number but the worst one, and my fellow players aren't bothered by that, what the fuck's it to you?

Sigmund · March 23, 2009, 10:43:10 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;292137I'll clarify a side issue here then. Since I define myself as a Viking Hat GM, should the random die result from either a player or myself result in a fun-ending conclusion (in accordance with my own judgement) then I reserve the right to "play dice with the universe".

Do I let the players fail? Yes, especially if I can weave the player setbacks into a greater victory for the players later (assuming that they have learned from their failures).

Do I let the players be killed if their actions (and not random chance from dice) lead them into a TPK? Yes. Evolution in action.

I believe it is in the entire game group's best interest if the GM does not fudge disasterous results of player choices (even if a TPK happens). Disasterous results of random chance are something that the GM can, and should, work with to not necessarily ensure player success but to allow the players to survive and be challenged by. Poor player choices are handled differently from poor random chance.

I agree 100%.

Sigmund · March 23, 2009, 10:44:13 PM

Quote from: Stuart;292146This. Games shouldn't contain rules / tables that can result in a random TPK.

Unless a particular group likes that kinda thing.

Sigmund · March 23, 2009, 10:51:17 PM

Quote from: The Shaman;292155Does a TPK really mean that your entire game just ends?

The players are still there. You're still there. The game, the dice, the minis . . . all still ready to go.

The only thing needed is new characters, right? Or am I missing something?

I've only had one game actually end with a TPK, and that was because we had a different campaign we wanted to try.

It can also kill the enthusiasm sometimes. It all depends on the group, and on the game, and maybe even the time of year. I've played through my fair share of tpks, and some were like "ah well, lets start that CoC game we were talking about", and some were like "Damn it, I was really looking forward to that too." One of ours was like "Ok, your new PCs come across the scene of a recent battle and you recognise the corpses as another group of adventurers that recently left town in this direction." and one was where our new PCs flashed-back to where they actually helped kill the old ones in an ambush. It all depends, like most other things.

RPGPundit · March 23, 2009, 11:11:56 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;292131You could, you know, try to be above the behaviour of some Forger moron.

That's what they want. There are moments, you know, when trying to be all noble and say "well, I just won't sink to your level" really doesn't work, particularly when the other guy is trying to stab you in the kidneys.

RPGPundit

mrk · March 24, 2009, 12:29:55 AM

Just like it's bee said the DM is God and he's the ultimate decider on what rules apply. However, it's also important to entertain the Players and to try and make it the most stimulating game session he possibly can.

The Shaman · March 24, 2009, 02:53:51 AM

Quote from: Sigmund;292170It can also kill the enthusiasm sometimes. It all depends on the group, and on the game, and maybe even the time of year. I've played through my fair share of tpks, and some were like "ah well, lets start that CoC game we were talking about", and some were like "Damn it, I was really looking forward to that too." One of ours was like "Ok, your new PCs come across the scene of a recent battle and you recognise the corpses as another group of adventurers that recently left town in this direction." and one was where our new PCs flashed-back to where they actually helped kill the old ones in an ambush. It all depends, like most other things.

Agreed.

In thinking about this a bit more, I think one of the reasons I'm perhaps a bit less concerned about TPKs is that I don't plan involved adventure arcs for the games I run. If the characters as a group suddenly disappear from the campaign, it doesn't mean that I'm out a ton of planning effort: I can grab another encounter off the stack and the players are usually able to dive right back into the action with new characters.

Blackleaf · March 24, 2009, 08:44:27 AM

Quote from: Sigmund;292164:rant:

I reckon some cow poke must've gone and plum pissed all over y'alls flap-jacks this mornin', hombre. :emot-clint:

jeff37923 · March 24, 2009, 09:38:38 AM

Quote from: The Shaman;292160Agreed - this is definitely one of the reasons I tend to favor games toward the rules-light end of the scale.Fair 'nuf.

Btw, this is main reason I don't care for T20.

TPK in original Traveller? We're operational again in ten minutes.

Yeah, I can't argue that this aspect of T20 can be either a bug or a feature depending on the the amount of spare time you have.

Sigmund · March 24, 2009, 10:26:53 AM

Quote from: Stuart;292189I reckon some cow poke must've gone and plum pissed all over y'alls flap-jacks this mornin', hombre. :emot-clint:

No, I just get riled at self-righteousness.

Blackleaf · March 24, 2009, 10:35:32 AM

Quote from: Sigmund;292199No, I just get riled at self-righteousness.

Stay off the internet then, or pay more attention to words like "advice".