TheRPGSite

https://vsca.blog/2020/02/12/bugging-out/

Anybody know why anybody should care? It reads like a typical cry for attention online and whiney as fuck. All I kept hearing in my head as I read it was "Doing things is haaaaard..." in a nasally voice. This guy can be tits on toast but my Spider Sense makes me believe he's deeply invested in SJW culture and won't be a loss. Please feel free to say otherwise.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1122264https://vsca.blog/2020/02/12/bugging-out/

Anybody know why anybody should care? It reads like a typical cry for attention online and whiney as fuck. All I kept hearing in my head as I read it was "Doing things is haaaaard..." in a nasally voice. This guy can be tits on toast but my Spider Sense makes me believe he's deeply invested in SJW culture and won't be a loss. Please feel free to say otherwise.

Someone mentioned on rpg.net that means nothing for $800, Alex?

Someone there mentioned Diaspora.

That's what I gathered. I wasn't sure if he had some "SJW Gygaxian" godhood or something. Given the gripes about FFG lay-offs and RPG writers not getting paid "what they're worth", it stick out.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1122264https://vsca.blog/2020/02/12/bugging-out/

Anybody know why anybody should care? It reads like a typical cry for attention online and whiney as fuck. All I kept hearing in my head as I read it was "Doing things is haaaaard..." in a nasally voice. This guy can be tits on toast but my Spider Sense makes me believe he's deeply invested in SJW culture and won't be a loss. Please feel free to say otherwise.

Well, I always liked his game designs. He was an Indy game designer the last couple of decades or so and did work on Diaspora, and I think SWN as well. I get where he comes from and that he laments that murder-hoboes have pretty much taken over the Role-Playing Games hobby these days, and that no one makes games that focus on well, ...role-playing instead of say, killing stuff and looting the dead. Actual RPGs was not something that the mainstream population was really into, or digging, and of course there are the designers that just want to cater to the mainstream and write trashy "Slay em' all and let God sort them out" roleplaying games, that are commercially successful.

His market has always been too small to sustain a large number of designers, I think now he actually realized this, and is hanging up his designer hat.

He also has no stomach for the endless social media pimping that is necessary for creators to be noticed these days.

If the industry is no longer enjoyable for him, that's a shame and I wish him well.

The endless moralizing in the RPG.net thread of it, about how Violence in RPG's is deplorable and how we should all be trying to get away from it on the other hand, is laughable.

Seems like another person who tried to turn their hobby into a business and got burned out.

I can sympathize with him over the distaste for violence in RPGs... the cover images where everyone is holding weapons of some sort, the game sessions that are just a string of combats, Players that can only engage with the game through their gear and 'powerz'. But that's always only been one corner of the hobby... there were always people playing games where very little combat took place, where people weren't playing to 'win' solely in terms of stats and equipment. I'm not sure why he's not seeing that, focusing on those folks.

Otherwise, I always though Mr. Murray had some interesting ideas... but took himself and the hobby WAAAAAAY too seriously.

"One thing that bothers me about these games and that has increasingly depressed me is the focus on violence. It's gone from discomfort to disgust. I can't even look at most game artwork without reflexively despising the fact that everyone on the cover is threatening me with a weapon or behaving as through the dismemberment of a foe was the pinnacle expression of healthy comraderie."

It's okay to be a murder hobo.  
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Quote from: DocJones;1122294It's okay to be a murder hobo.  
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I agree... but I think Mr. Murray has fallen into the trap of being bothered that other people want to play differently than he does... or mistaking their trees for the whole forest. Deciding you don't care for having a strong focus on combat in your games shouldn't necessitate a crusade to get the violence out of gaming... but I'm not sure that's what HE is saying (regardless of what other nonsense might follow from folks reading him).

Quote from: Simlasa;1122291Seems like another person who tried to turn their hobby into a business and got burned out.

Exactly.

I recently interviewed a potential client who had just sold his bar. He loved bars, and he bought a place that was bar + live music venue. What should of been his dream became his nightmare because "loving to hang out in bars" isn't "loving to deal with all the issues of owning a bar".

Hobby-as-business might be a fun side gig for beer money, but hobby-as-livelihood is a rough path. And when the fun part drops from the side gig and the beer money isn't worth the effort, its definitely time to walk away.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1122264https://vsca.blog/2020/02/12/bugging-out/

Anybody know why anybody should care? It reads like a typical cry for attention online and whiney as fuck. All I kept hearing in my head as I read it was "Doing things is haaaaard..." in a nasally voice. This guy can be tits on toast but my Spider Sense makes me believe he's deeply invested in SJW culture and won't be a loss. Please feel free to say otherwise.

If you're an SJW like he is, no amount of social media is going to help sell your RPG or comic book. Such people tend to cancel themselves.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1122285He also has no stomach for the endless social media pimping that is necessary for creators to be noticed these days.

More and more designers are getting tired of that. I think we are going to see more burnout, quiet or not over the next few years.

You need a YouTube channel and a personality in order to do well selling books, unless you already have a Facebook group with 1,000s of fans of your IP already. Because blogs won't cut it.

Dude's seriously overreacting. I mean, sure, if he was hoping to make a living at this then that's one thing. But if he loves all that other stuff, there's no reason once he's got a product he's happy with not to take a few minutes to upload to DTRPG or something and maybe get a few bucks out of it. If he gets some beer & pretzel money out of it, yay. If not, well, he wasn't counting on the income anyway so no harm done. And a Twitter post takes like 10 seconds, so even if his estimates about the bots are right that's still like 300-something people he can reach with next to no extra work. No need to do more than that unless he really feels like it. But yeah, if he's going to make these games anyway, taking a few minutes to do something that might net a few bucks seems easy enough. But if he sees it as "make a living" or "why bother," . . . yeah, can't help that.

I find this part super funny, though, but more in a sad way than a ha-ha way:

QuoteI can't even look at most game artwork without reflexively despising the fact that everyone on the cover is threatening me with a weapon . . . .

I get not wanting much, if any, combat in your games. I'm fine with all kinds of games and styles of play, so sometimes I get lots of combat and sometimes I get none and often I get something somewhere in-between. But "depressed," "discomfort," "disgust," and then "despising?" Chillax, dude, you don't have to buy/play those games if you don't want to. But I have trouble understanding the mindset where someone would see a picture of characters brandishing weapons and somehow come to the conclusion that they're threatening him. That takes a special kind of narcissism and/or paranoia. Just wow . . .

If he's a cool dude, then great for that but sad he's lost the love for creating in his hobby. I stand by that his tone seems more like a cry for "Stop me! Please?" than a noble exit. As far as violence in games, that's how it is. Conflict is fun and combat is a type of conflict that's in RPG DNA. I find it so odd that the very people who practically masturbate over ANTIFA violence and applaud 3rd trimester abortions are so squeamish about imaginary violence. They're so easily offended and afraid of everything, seeing rapists and racists around every corner, but create and play...practically live in...the misery tourism of hyper-sexualized and violent RPGs centered on very personal and touchy topics.

I believe many of them balk at violence because it's so close to their emotional and mental surfaces and they blur the lines enough that it upsets them. Or not. I'm not a psychologist.

This is pure speculation and I have no actual evidence, but I wonder if he is bummed because Stars Without Number is such a commercial success, compared with Diaspora.

I never understood the rpgnet nerdgasm over Diaspora, back when it came out (and when I still used to check in there). Even allowing for the fact I don't like Fate, Diaspora seemed fairly broad-brush, lacking in genuinely new ideas and generally over-hyped.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1122264https://vsca.blog/2020/02/12/bugging-out/

Anybody know why anybody should care? It reads like a typical cry for attention online and whiney as fuck. All I kept hearing in my head as I read it was "Doing things is haaaaard..." in a nasally voice. This guy can be tits on toast but my Spider Sense makes me believe he's deeply invested in SJW culture and won't be a loss. Please feel free to say otherwise.

He made Hollowpoint. I don't know what his politics are, and I am actually a bit surprised that he mentions game violence as being an issue for him (given the premise of Hollowpoint). Generally most of the online comments I've seen about his work have been positive (provided people like the kinds of games he makes obviously).

Most of the other issues he raises though, are things pretty much any designer will tell you has happened. Google plus going down was a huge crater for a lot of peoples' social media reach for example (and social media reach pretty much equals sales). I don't know what he means exactly by worrying about what people think, but I can say, just from my own experience and observations that there is definitely a big difference between when I started Bedrock in 2009 and now in terms of the way online conversations play out around games. I think no matter where you stand politically and socially, it is safe to say the conversation around games is less fun, and grown more serious. There is also just a lot more people putting out games and the platforms for marketing games are way more fragmented.

I don't know if he is whining so much as honestly expressing frustration. He probably should have held off a day or two before making a blog post like that IMO. But I think anyone who has been on social media has had those moments where they get frustrated in a discussion, and say something overly honest or overly emotional. That can be particularly true if you are active in the hobby, or if you make games for the hobby, and you feel attacked for some reason by people in it. I try not to worry too much about what people think. Still it is easy to mistake five posters on a twitter thread or facebook thread for somehow representing a majority opinion (when you are in the middle of an intense discussion). Probably he just needs a break from social media.

Just as a sidenote, on the topic of violence in RPGs, I really don't understand how this has suddenly become an issue for people.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350Just as a sidenote, on the topic of violence in RPGs, I really don't understand how this has suddenly become an issue for people.

Is it sudden? I seem to recall various people taking issue with it since I first started gaming. Isn't that a chunk of what the 'murderhbo' slur is about? What was that editorial on game violence, disguised as a game, that was on the flipside of Puppetland?
I don't mind violence in games at all... except when I do. When I want something else and find it hard to get away from... even coming from myself. Like, when we're playing a game meant to evoke fairy tales but keep falling back on combat/violence to solve problems... not that fairy tales lack violence, but they're not usually full of melee.

Quote from: Simlasa;1122353Is it sudden? I seem to recall various people taking issue with it since I first started gaming. Isn't that a chunk of what the 'murderhbo' slur is about? What was that editorial on game violence, disguised as a game, that was on the flipside of Puppetland?
I don't mind violence in games at all... except when I do. When I want something else and find it hard to get away from... even coming from myself. Like, when we're playing a game meant to evoke fairy tales but keep falling back on combat/violence to solve problems... not that fairy tales lack violence, but they're not usually full of melee.

I don't know. To me the change seems sudden. Maybe I haven't been as keyed in on certain discussions. Murderhobo, when I first encountered it years ago, was just a funny label people gave to campaigns that were almost entirely about killing things (and it wasn't even really judgmental of the violence, it was just a funny observation that the characters were wandering around like hoboes and killing things). But maybe it carried different meaning outside where I gamed. I definitely never would have labeled it a 'slur'.

Everyone's appetite for violence is going to be different. But I think finding combat tedious, isn't the same as a moral critique of violence in RPGs. I can understand a person finding violence in RPGs tedious. I don't really understand taking moral issue with violence in an RPG or boardgames.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350Just as a sidenote, on the topic of violence in RPGs, I really don't understand how this has suddenly become an issue for people.

At least in my gaming circles one would have some players complaining on how they thought D&D promoted more violence than roleplaying in rpgs. To the level it is now either a whole bunch of gamers suddenly become incredibly socially aware of it just seems everything and anything is offensive. It's like sexualized art in rpgs where almost no one up until recently cared about it suddenly we have a whole bunch of pearl clutchers complaining about the art.

As for the OP I can respect the guy for not being happy yet barely knew who the hell he was in the rpg industry. Over at TBP they make it out to be as if Gary Gygax quite rpgs.

Quote from: Marchand;1122343This is pure speculation and I have no actual evidence, but I wonder if he is bummed because Stars Without Number is such a commercial success, compared with Diaspora.

I never understood the rpgnet nerdgasm over Diaspora, back when it came out (and when I still used to check in there). Even allowing for the fact I don't like Fate, Diaspora seemed fairly broad-brush, lacking in genuinely new ideas and generally over-hyped.

SJW author + FATE = rpgnet nerdgasm

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122354I don't know. To me the change seems sudden. Maybe I haven't been as keyed in on certain discussions.

It's the GamerGate affect. A lot of gamers are in its bubble and don't know it. The new normal for them.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122354I don't know. To me the change seems sudden. Maybe I haven't been as keyed in on certain discussions. Murderhobo, when I first encountered it years ago, was just a funny label people gave to campaigns that were almost entirely about killing things (and it wasn't even really judgmental of the violence, it was just a funny observation that the characters were wandering around like hoboes and killing things). But maybe it carried different meaning outside where I gamed. I definitely never would have labeled it a 'slur'.

Everyone's appetite for violence is going to be different. But I think finding combat tedious, isn't the same as a moral critique of violence in RPGs. I can understand a person finding violence in RPGs tedious. I don't really understand taking moral issue with violence in an RPG or boardgames.

1: Oh it is very much a slur. This is not new.

2: The slurs. Old School, Murderhobo, RPGs are only about violence, etc all seem to have originated with the damn storygamers and especially Puntit's Swine. Not helped that various idiots "embrace" these slurs which only spreads the disease further by enabling it.

We saw this during 5e D&D for example as over on BGG. Rare, but it was allways the same tired line as if they just cut-n-pasted it from some manifesto. "D&D/RPGs are only about fighting and killing because all the rules are for fighting and killing!". Some will change their mind when its pointed out that the rules are there to cover the combat part which is mostly technical as it were. While the interaction part was kept pretty simple because players were expected to role play talking to people with minimal rules in the way. Pretty much the pinnacle of storygaming. The die-hard haters just double down and demand more rules for talking.

Quote from: Simlasa;1122291Seems like another person who tried to turn their hobby into a business and got burned out.

I think so.

About ten years ago when I was writing the rpgnow guide for navigating through Lulu, self-publishing was known as "vanity publishing." It was clear to most: I am doing this for vanity, not for a living. If you make it clear to yourself that you're doing it all for vanity, it helps you put things in perspective.

Bedrock Brendan brings up a good point about how online marketing has changed. In October 2019, there was an algorithm apocalypse on Instagram as Farcebook has pulled the rug on free and low cost marketing. The platform is now fully monetized, like Facebook, so unless you're dropping $100k/month in ads, you're not seeing the value that used to exist.

Between the loss of G+ and the revamping of algorithms that disfavor organic searches, I am not surprised that small publishers are feeling the crunch.

Unfortunately, that puts even more power in the hands of DriveThruRPG.

Quote from: Omega;11223662: The slurs. Old School, Murderhobo, RPGs are only about violence, etc all seem to have originated with the damn storygamers and especially Puntit's Swine. Not helped that various idiots "embrace" these slurs which only spreads the disease further by enabling it.

I think 'murderhobo' goes back farther than the 'storygames' arguments. I'd swear it's a friction that existed between gamers back when terms like 'Monty Haul' and such were vibrant and new. Even between game groups in my home town there was friction, people telling other people they were 'playing it wrong'. The pro-Gygax vs. the anti-Gygax.
Some groups favored lots of combat, lots of loot, fast levelling... others were into crafting props and writing songs and poems for their PCs to use... having romances and getting married (my own group had a PC marry the queen of the centaurs).

Quote from: Spinachcat;1122375Bedrock Brendan brings up a good point about how online marketing has changed. In October 2019, there was an algorithm apocalypse on Instagram as Farcebook has pulled the rug on free and low cost marketing. The platform is now fully monetized, like Facebook, so unless you're dropping $100k/month in ads, you're not seeing the value that used to exist.

Between the loss of G+ and the revamping of algorithms that disfavor organic searches, I am not surprised that small publishers are feeling the crunch.

Unfortunately, that puts even more power in the hands of DriveThruRPG.

People need to switch to duck duck go or other search engines.

Also make your own store.

I kind of don't get the "it is too violent!" angle. I run a lot of RPGs and the violence is really up to the group. I ran a Labyrinth Lord campaign recently with sessions of no violence or combat, I gave the players experience for great roleplaying during these sessions and we all had just as much fun those nights as when there was combat. These games are what you make of them, not what they make you do.

Quote from: bat;1122414I kind of don't get the "it is too violent!" angle. I run a lot of RPGs and the violence is really up to the group. I ran a Labyrinth Lord campaign recently with sessions of no violence or combat, I gave the players experience for great roleplaying during these sessions and we all had just as much fun those nights as when there was combat. These games are what you make of them, not what they make you do.

I can't really agree with that. Many, perhaps most, games give a lot of rules space to ways to use violence to reach your goals. D&D usually presents you with scenes set with encounters that are more-or-less intended to be combats. While you can sometimes find another way to overcome them, that's very much not the intent. Even when simply slugging it out isn't the best way, the best way is often a matter of finding a bigger advantage so that you can slaughter the foes more easily. The violence doesn't bother me, but for those that are bothered by it, there is a lot of it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1122408People need to switch to duck duck go or other search engines.

Also make your own store.

Pretty much this, ya. Get out of the mainstream and build your own distribution channel. It's really the only way.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122416I can't really agree with that. Many, perhaps most, games give a lot of rules space to ways to use violence to reach your goals. D&D usually presents you with scenes set with encounters that are more-or-less intended to be combats. While you can sometimes find another way to overcome them, that's very much not the intent. Even when simply slugging it out isn't the best way, the best way is often a matter of finding a bigger advantage so that you can slaughter the foes more easily. The violence doesn't bother me, but for those that are bothered by it, there is a lot of it.

RPGs are rooted in pulp and heroic fantasy, which typically features violence in some form or another. Maybe those people should take up a new hobby like playing fucking cards or checkers.

Quote from: Brad;1122421RPGs are rooted in pulp and heroic fantasy, which typically features violence in some form or another. Maybe those people should take up a new hobby like playing fucking cards or checkers.

Or they could play those RPGs that are not based on such fantasy. Some games are very much non-violent by design, and it is possible to play a game like (Original Series and/or Next Generation) Star Trek that focuses on violence being the last resort (as opposed to some of the newer Trek that turns much more readily to violent solutions). These are certainly a minority of the games present, but they are out there for those that are opposed to violence in their RPGs but still want to play RPGs rather than cards or checkers.

Quote from: Brad;1122421RPGs are rooted in pulp and heroic fantasy, which typically features violence in some form or another. Maybe those people should take up a new hobby like playing fucking cards or checkers.

And I agree with this. However there are also situations (like getting paid $20/hour to run rpgs in a bar) in which you are dealing with people new to rpgs that have not read pulp/heroic/weird/s&s fantasy. They are curious about rpgs and sometimes find interesting ways around constant combat. In my LL campaign I set up 2/4 encounters per session that were probably going to be combat and 2-3 that were non-combat and two of the new players found clever ways to avoid combat with some of the encounters I thought would be a bloodbath, yet I allowed them a fair roll to give their ideas a try.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122426Or they could play those RPGs that are not based on such fantasy. Some games are very much non-violent by design, and it is possible to play a game like (Original Series and/or Next Generation) Star Trek that focuses on violence being the last resort (as opposed to some of the newer Trek that turns much more readily to violent solutions). These are certainly a minority of the games present, but they are out there for those that are opposed to violence in their RPGs but still want to play RPGs rather than cards or checkers.

You make it sound like Frodo was actively seeking out getting in scrapes with the Nazgul or something...violence is a last resort for legitimate heroes. Even Conan didn't start fights for no reason.

Quote from: Brad;1122437You make it sound like Frodo was actively seeking out getting in scrapes with the Nazgul or something...violence is a last resort for legitimate heroes. Even Conan didn't start fights for no reason.

Don't be obtuse, neither Frodo's nor Conan's adventures are set up the manner of a typical D&D adventure of the last 20 years. I'm using the actual game materials as my sources, not fantasy inspirations for those games.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122441Don't be obtuse, neither Frodo's nor Conan's adventures are set up the manner of a typical D&D adventure of the last 20 years. I'm using the actual game materials as my sources, not fantasy inspirations for those games.

So what?

Quote from: Brad;1122437You make it sound like Frodo was actively seeking out getting in scrapes with the Nazgul or something...violence is a last resort for legitimate heroes. Even Conan didn't start fights for no reason.

Except when drunk. Which was usually after the adventure.

Quote from: Brad;1122448So what?

What I am saying is that the people that say there is too much violence in RPGs for their tastes are likely basing that off of the most typical play expectations of the most prevalent games today (D&D 5e and Pathfinder) rather than the non-game inspirations which have become quite dated and different at this point from the games they inspired.

Some people have not been exposed to some of the same things many of us in the hobby have and when they take and interest and want to try it out I will always entertain a clever idea over video game style violence in a ttrpg.

Quote from: Omega;1122449Except when drunk. Which was usually after the adventure.

Well, yeah, but isn't that true for most of us?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122456What I am saying is that the people that say there is too much violence in RPGs for their tastes are likely basing that off of the most typical play expectations of the most prevalent games today (D&D 5e and Pathfinder) rather than the non-game inspirations which have become quite dated and different at this point from the games they inspired.

Sure, I get that, but that has more to do with players than the game itself, and I'd say it has something to do with videogames, too. When I was a kid playing D&D, we ran away A LOT, and would resort to all sorts of dirty tricks to win. Our Star Wars games were mostly avoiding Imperials, with a shootout meaning we fucked up somewhere. But then, we all started playing Bards Tale and crap like that, where 99% of the game is beating the shit out of monsters to grind for XP, with puzzles much more rare. That's a necessity of the medium, so zero hate on BT which I love playing, but it seemed to bleed over into the tabletop.

I'm curious to see how many new gamers came from videogames; I'd guess it's most, if not all. I posted in another thread somewhere that 100% of the new gamers in the last group I was in all had played some sort of MMORPG before we started the campaign. So, there you go.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1122417Pretty much this, ya. Get out of the mainstream and build your own distribution channel. It's really the only way.

Having your own store doesn't work.....

Quote from: Malrex;1122532Having your own store doesn't work.....

Neither does using the largest PDF distributor, just ask Judges Guild.......

It sounds like the core issue is social media burnout and anxiety over what other people think, which I can completely identify with.

They claim there's a lot of awful people in the hobby they can't distance themselves enough from, which makes me think many are part of their community rather than like the deplorables who lurk here.

The death of G+ was a major hit many never recovered from. Google gave folks the tools to build a community, and then took them away. Google didn't even bother archiving things like they did with Usenet.

They mention examples of media which present a world "profoundly richer than musing on game design". Not surprising, as innovation in that field has been dead for awhile now. Membership has become more important than methodology, and instead of experimenting and innovating people are just adopting a model and basing their game off that. At the very least the exceptions to the rule aren't out there discussing it, and even if they were it's likely nobody would understand them.

Quote from: Brad MurrayI love these games. I'm just exhausted by the idea of having to care what everyone else likes while I'm doing it,

And I think this sentiment goes well beyond just marketing games, to engaging the hobby itself. This is why people are getting burned out.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1122285He also has no stomach for the endless social media pimping that is necessary for creators to be noticed these days.

You know who does? Daniel Fox. Which hasn't made them popular.

Speaking of which, from the rpg.net thread (https://archive.is/j5jgK):

Quote from: Brad Murraywith G+ gone and RPG.net punishing talking about your own product, I feel a bit underwater as far as visibility goes.

Quote from: thirdkingdomI also feel like rpg.net's policy of promoting one's games only through the Hype Machine reduces the potential audience.

Quote from: Lysusbut there are some bad actors who would absolutely deluge the board in spam if they were allowed to do so outside of Hype Machine (the Zweihander guy comes to mind).

So it was people like Daniel who caused this problem in the first place!

Quote from: Omega;1122322More and more designers are getting tired of that. I think we are going to see more burnout, quiet or not over the next few years.

We're already seeing exactly the same thing when it comes to #YouTube, and for exactly the same reasons.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350I am actually a bit surprised that he mentions game violence as being an issue for him

Me too. Seems like a weird addendum to make.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350no matter where you stand politically and socially, it is safe to say the conversation around games is less fun, and grown more serious.

Agreed.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350I don't know if he is whining so much as honestly expressing frustration.

The latter, and it's sad to see we can't even express our frustrations online without having our motives and politics questioned.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1122375Between the loss of G+ and the revamping of algorithms that disfavor organic searches, I am not surprised that small publishers are feeling the crunch.

In many ways they shot themselves in the foot though.

The only reason an RPG community formed around G+ was because it provided tools which facilitated the hobby. Things like ConTessa would not have existed without that. But when it closed shop we got to see just how much the remaining... diaspora couldn't stand each other, and they all went their separate ways when they couldn't agree on which alternative social network was less fascist. Now you can't search for them as the platforms they use aren't even indexed by the engines.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1122408Also make your own store.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1122417Get out of the mainstream and build your own distribution channel. It's really the only way.

Quote from: Malrex;1122532Having your own store doesn't work.....

It doesn't.

Nobody wants to create a new account to buy something, and they want all their electronic media in one place, which are problems a new store can't solve. The only thing I've seen motivate someone enough to use a less convenient alternative is ideology (which might explain the increasing number of lefty developers are using itch.io), and even that will get weighed against the bottom line.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1122784Nobody wants to create a new account to buy something, and they want all their electronic media in one place, which are problems a new store can't solve. The only thing I've seen motivate someone enough to use a less convenient alternative is ideology (which might explain the increasing number of lefty developers are using itch.io), and even that will get weighed against the bottom line.

Drivethrurpg is best...Lulu comes in waves but pretty low...itchio was a waste of time..haven't tried Amazon....having one's own store was a loss of money to set it up. Granted, I suck at and HATE advertising. I tried to keep up with the 'endless social media' but holy hell I hated it. I should hire a highschooler to do that crap for me--maybe that's key. Does anyone even look at the endless spam on Mewe, Twitter and other channels or is it just glossing over? Why do something if you hate it or if it annoys others (it annoys me seeing it on every channel)? So going more low-key with some social media explosions for kickstarters or whatever is more in line for my enjoyment of the hobby. I mean..I like beer...but I'm not going to waste countless hours on social media to get that 6 pack...

I was excited about the store idea as I thought it would be fun and...no 30-35% cut for Drivethru, etc...! Cool, sign me up. But you are correct...no one wants to join another avenue--especially one with few items for sale. But yet, people complain about Drivethru...but then they don't buy from stores..but then they complain about Drivethru..but yet...they don't buy from individual stores, but yet, they complain about Drivethru.....yeah.....over it *eyeroll*

There's no question that there's no escaping DTRPG at the moment.

On the other hand, for me at least the death of G+ hasn't hurt me one bit.  I'm selling way more now than I was a year ago. I think that people vastly overestimated the presence of gamers on G+. It was ultimately a kind of circlejerk; obviously some people were able to create a 'community' of loyal customers for their small-print products (a lot of whom were other designers or bloggers or whatever), but the end of G+ led me to do more stuff on Twitter, MeWe and especially Youtube and that grew my audience significantly (of regular gamers who were not G+ cool kids).

RPGPundit, do you feel Twitter or YouTube has done more for your sales? Can you track sales from either platform?

And now that G+ has been dead awhile, how is the MeWe OSR community doing?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122456What I am saying is that the people that say there is too much violence in RPGs for their tastes are likely basing that off of the most typical play expectations of the most prevalent games today (D&D 5e and Pathfinder) rather than the non-game inspirations which have become quite dated and different at this point from the games they inspired.

Since when has RAW in any game stopped or prevented any GM from doing *what they want* with a game? When is it time for Billy to pull up his big-boy pants and run the game the way he wants to run it? And after an "appropriate" amount of time, when does Billy decide to make the game he wants to play?

As for making a business out of it... yeah Billy better find out if there is a market for his mousetrap. And if he doesn't have the juice to sell it and create that market... well I guess he's always got the internet to complain on. Welcome to reality, Billy.

Quote from: tenbones;1123090Since when has RAW in any game stopped or prevented any GM from doing *what they want* with a game? When is it time for Billy to pull up his big-boy pants and run the game the way he wants to run it? And after an "appropriate" amount of time, when does Billy decide to make the game he wants to play?

As for making a business out of it... yeah Billy better find out if there is a market for his mousetrap. And if he doesn't have the juice to sell it and create that market... well I guess he's always got the internet to complain on. Welcome to reality, Billy.

I'm not sure why you quoted me for that. I referred to commonly shared play expectations, not RAW. The expectations of D&D are not dependent upon the RAW, but rather the RAW will often be judged on how well it helps people play to those expectations.

Then you go on a tangent about Billy, and Billy is welcome run his game however he wants, but Billy is deluded if he thinks that carries any weight beyond his own table of players regardless of what pants he's wearing or if he's going balls-out.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1123095I'm not sure why you quoted me for that. I referred to commonly shared play expectations, not RAW. The expectations of D&D are not dependent upon the RAW, but rather the RAW will often be judged on how well it helps people play to those expectations.

Then you go on a tangent about Billy, and Billy is welcome run his game however he wants, but Billy is deluded if he thinks that carries any weight beyond his own table of players regardless of what pants he's wearing or if he's going balls-out.

I'm not criticizing you. I think it stuck out to me based on Brad's own posts.

I'm saying that HIS (Brad and those wanting non-violence in their games) desires for what he wants from a personal and marketing perspective are intertwined with the one thing under his control: the design. That's 100% under his control. You don't get to control what others do with your product. Likewise, I mention the RAW-thing because there is nothing explicit about most RPG's that force you to engage in in-game violence if you don't want to. And so it goes...

I put my rubbers on and read his posts on TBP - and yeah, he's whinging about the violence levels implicit in his own games... when I'm scratching my head, and wondering wtf was he thinking when designing his own product if its going to make him feel like this? Who is he trying to placate? The Murderhobos of the industry? "Please come play my non-violence-intended RPG... here I'll put scads of weapons in there to make you happy. Buy my game!"

I dunno it sounds like he's being disingenuous to himself - either he's now feeling this way for unclaimed reasons, or he's always felt this way, but burned himself out chasing too many marketing rabbits.

The reality is this IS a hobby-industry if you're not WotC. Find your demographic - and ATTAAAAACK. If you want to pretend your demo is far larger than it is - by all means commit economic suicide. Welcome to the jungle, I hope you learned your lesson, now get back in the saddle of reality (or don't). If you think you're going to chase disparate demographics and design against your *own* personal interests, and desires - you're setting yourself up.

As for Zweihander - from what I hear, Fox's non-stop marketing assault has worked *despite* his personality, and scumbag tactics. Personally I was very interested in Zweihander, but Fox himself turned me off from giving him my money. I don't think he cares much, since he seems to be doing just fine. Take from that what you will.

Gotta love how TBP influences here: they treat it like a funeral, then the dude chimes in to group-hug his mourners.

So, you can die AND eat the cake left on your grave.

"OH! He worked on blahblahblah so we need to pay homage to our beloved SJW because making money in the tabletop rpg industry is far too punitive!"

The fact that he even matters shows how TBP members have infiltrated this site.

F*** ALL of you.

How is posting this an example of TBP infiltrating this site?

It's a forum and chances are someone thought it was an interesting topic. Many times topics from here appear on that site and vice versa.  If because the same topic appears over at TBP is your proof that we are infiltrated by posters from there your fucked in the head and really don't have a clue do you.

While your at it you can go fuck you own mother TOG.

Quote from: sureshot;1123177While your at it you can go fuck you own mother TOG.

That's offensive. TOG will be offended that you're misusing your.

Quote from: sureshot;1123177While your at it you can go fuck you own mother TOG.

Leave his mom alone!

Use his uncle instead!

[video=youtube;VsMcdEswK8k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsMcdEswK8k[/youtube]

Lol  been a long time since I heard or watch the movie.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1123074RPGPundit, do you feel Twitter or YouTube has done more for your sales? Can you track sales from either platform?

And now that G+ has been dead awhile, how is the MeWe OSR community doing?

I can't track sales, and I doubt my publishers can, in the sense of being able to say "purchase x comes from twitter" or something like that.

However, I very strongly think that it's Youtube that makes the most difference.  Some of my publishers have told me that each time I post a new video, there's a jump in sales.