Quote from: Brad;1122421RPGs are rooted in pulp and heroic fantasy, which typically features violence in some form or another. Maybe those people should take up a new hobby like playing fucking cards or checkers.

Or they could play those RPGs that are not based on such fantasy. Some games are very much non-violent by design, and it is possible to play a game like (Original Series and/or Next Generation) Star Trek that focuses on violence being the last resort (as opposed to some of the newer Trek that turns much more readily to violent solutions). These are certainly a minority of the games present, but they are out there for those that are opposed to violence in their RPGs but still want to play RPGs rather than cards or checkers.

Quote from: Brad;1122421RPGs are rooted in pulp and heroic fantasy, which typically features violence in some form or another. Maybe those people should take up a new hobby like playing fucking cards or checkers.

And I agree with this. However there are also situations (like getting paid $20/hour to run rpgs in a bar) in which you are dealing with people new to rpgs that have not read pulp/heroic/weird/s&s fantasy. They are curious about rpgs and sometimes find interesting ways around constant combat. In my LL campaign I set up 2/4 encounters per session that were probably going to be combat and 2-3 that were non-combat and two of the new players found clever ways to avoid combat with some of the encounters I thought would be a bloodbath, yet I allowed them a fair roll to give their ideas a try.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122426Or they could play those RPGs that are not based on such fantasy. Some games are very much non-violent by design, and it is possible to play a game like (Original Series and/or Next Generation) Star Trek that focuses on violence being the last resort (as opposed to some of the newer Trek that turns much more readily to violent solutions). These are certainly a minority of the games present, but they are out there for those that are opposed to violence in their RPGs but still want to play RPGs rather than cards or checkers.

You make it sound like Frodo was actively seeking out getting in scrapes with the Nazgul or something...violence is a last resort for legitimate heroes. Even Conan didn't start fights for no reason.

Quote from: Brad;1122437You make it sound like Frodo was actively seeking out getting in scrapes with the Nazgul or something...violence is a last resort for legitimate heroes. Even Conan didn't start fights for no reason.

Don't be obtuse, neither Frodo's nor Conan's adventures are set up the manner of a typical D&D adventure of the last 20 years. I'm using the actual game materials as my sources, not fantasy inspirations for those games.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122441Don't be obtuse, neither Frodo's nor Conan's adventures are set up the manner of a typical D&D adventure of the last 20 years. I'm using the actual game materials as my sources, not fantasy inspirations for those games.

So what?

Quote from: Brad;1122437You make it sound like Frodo was actively seeking out getting in scrapes with the Nazgul or something...violence is a last resort for legitimate heroes. Even Conan didn't start fights for no reason.

Except when drunk. Which was usually after the adventure.

Quote from: Brad;1122448So what?

What I am saying is that the people that say there is too much violence in RPGs for their tastes are likely basing that off of the most typical play expectations of the most prevalent games today (D&D 5e and Pathfinder) rather than the non-game inspirations which have become quite dated and different at this point from the games they inspired.

Some people have not been exposed to some of the same things many of us in the hobby have and when they take and interest and want to try it out I will always entertain a clever idea over video game style violence in a ttrpg.

Quote from: Omega;1122449Except when drunk. Which was usually after the adventure.

Well, yeah, but isn't that true for most of us?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122456What I am saying is that the people that say there is too much violence in RPGs for their tastes are likely basing that off of the most typical play expectations of the most prevalent games today (D&D 5e and Pathfinder) rather than the non-game inspirations which have become quite dated and different at this point from the games they inspired.

Sure, I get that, but that has more to do with players than the game itself, and I'd say it has something to do with videogames, too. When I was a kid playing D&D, we ran away A LOT, and would resort to all sorts of dirty tricks to win. Our Star Wars games were mostly avoiding Imperials, with a shootout meaning we fucked up somewhere. But then, we all started playing Bards Tale and crap like that, where 99% of the game is beating the shit out of monsters to grind for XP, with puzzles much more rare. That's a necessity of the medium, so zero hate on BT which I love playing, but it seemed to bleed over into the tabletop.

I'm curious to see how many new gamers came from videogames; I'd guess it's most, if not all. I posted in another thread somewhere that 100% of the new gamers in the last group I was in all had played some sort of MMORPG before we started the campaign. So, there you go.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1122417Pretty much this, ya. Get out of the mainstream and build your own distribution channel. It's really the only way.

Having your own store doesn't work.....

Quote from: Malrex;1122532Having your own store doesn't work.....

Neither does using the largest PDF distributor, just ask Judges Guild.......

It sounds like the core issue is social media burnout and anxiety over what other people think, which I can completely identify with.

They claim there's a lot of awful people in the hobby they can't distance themselves enough from, which makes me think many are part of their community rather than like the deplorables who lurk here.

The death of G+ was a major hit many never recovered from. Google gave folks the tools to build a community, and then took them away. Google didn't even bother archiving things like they did with Usenet.

They mention examples of media which present a world "profoundly richer than musing on game design". Not surprising, as innovation in that field has been dead for awhile now. Membership has become more important than methodology, and instead of experimenting and innovating people are just adopting a model and basing their game off that. At the very least the exceptions to the rule aren't out there discussing it, and even if they were it's likely nobody would understand them.

Quote from: Brad MurrayI love these games. I'm just exhausted by the idea of having to care what everyone else likes while I'm doing it,

And I think this sentiment goes well beyond just marketing games, to engaging the hobby itself. This is why people are getting burned out.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1122285He also has no stomach for the endless social media pimping that is necessary for creators to be noticed these days.

You know who does? Daniel Fox. Which hasn't made them popular.

Speaking of which, from the rpg.net thread:

Quote from: Brad Murraywith G+ gone and RPG.net punishing talking about your own product, I feel a bit underwater as far as visibility goes.

Quote from: thirdkingdomI also feel like rpg.net's policy of promoting one's games only through the Hype Machine reduces the potential audience.

Quote from: Lysusbut there are some bad actors who would absolutely deluge the board in spam if they were allowed to do so outside of Hype Machine (the Zweihander guy comes to mind).

So it was people like Daniel who caused this problem in the first place!

Quote from: Omega;1122322More and more designers are getting tired of that. I think we are going to see more burnout, quiet or not over the next few years.

We're already seeing exactly the same thing when it comes to #YouTube, and for exactly the same reasons.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350I am actually a bit surprised that he mentions game violence as being an issue for him

Me too. Seems like a weird addendum to make.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350no matter where you stand politically and socially, it is safe to say the conversation around games is less fun, and grown more serious.

Agreed.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1122350I don't know if he is whining so much as honestly expressing frustration.

The latter, and it's sad to see we can't even express our frustrations online without having our motives and politics questioned.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1122375Between the loss of G+ and the revamping of algorithms that disfavor organic searches, I am not surprised that small publishers are feeling the crunch.

In many ways they shot themselves in the foot though.

The only reason an RPG community formed around G+ was because it provided tools which facilitated the hobby. Things like ConTessa would not have existed without that. But when it closed shop we got to see just how much the remaining... diaspora couldn't stand each other, and they all went their separate ways when they couldn't agree on which alternative social network was less fascist. Now you can't search for them as the platforms they use aren't even indexed by the engines.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1122408Also make your own store.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1122417Get out of the mainstream and build your own distribution channel. It's really the only way.

Quote from: Malrex;1122532Having your own store doesn't work.....

It doesn't.

Nobody wants to create a new account to buy something, and they want all their electronic media in one place, which are problems a new store can't solve. The only thing I've seen motivate someone enough to use a less convenient alternative is ideology (which might explain the increasing number of lefty developers are using itch.io), and even that will get weighed against the bottom line.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1122784Nobody wants to create a new account to buy something, and they want all their electronic media in one place, which are problems a new store can't solve. The only thing I've seen motivate someone enough to use a less convenient alternative is ideology (which might explain the increasing number of lefty developers are using itch.io), and even that will get weighed against the bottom line.

Drivethrurpg is best...Lulu comes in waves but pretty low...itchio was a waste of time..haven't tried Amazon....having one's own store was a loss of money to set it up. Granted, I suck at and HATE advertising. I tried to keep up with the 'endless social media' but holy hell I hated it. I should hire a highschooler to do that crap for me--maybe that's key. Does anyone even look at the endless spam on Mewe, Twitter and other channels or is it just glossing over? Why do something if you hate it or if it annoys others (it annoys me seeing it on every channel)? So going more low-key with some social media explosions for kickstarters or whatever is more in line for my enjoyment of the hobby. I mean..I like beer...but I'm not going to waste countless hours on social media to get that 6 pack...

I was excited about the store idea as I thought it would be fun and...no 30-35% cut for Drivethru, etc...! Cool, sign me up. But you are correct...no one wants to join another avenue--especially one with few items for sale. But yet, people complain about Drivethru...but then they don't buy from stores..but then they complain about Drivethru..but yet...they don't buy from individual stores, but yet, they complain about Drivethru.....yeah.....over it *eyeroll*

There's no question that there's no escaping DTRPG at the moment.

On the other hand, for me at least the death of G+ hasn't hurt me one bit.  I'm selling way more now than I was a year ago. I think that people vastly overestimated the presence of gamers on G+. It was ultimately a kind of circlejerk; obviously some people were able to create a 'community' of loyal customers for their small-print products (a lot of whom were other designers or bloggers or whatever), but the end of G+ led me to do more stuff on Twitter, MeWe and especially Youtube and that grew my audience significantly (of regular gamers who were not G+ cool kids).

RPGPundit, do you feel Twitter or YouTube has done more for your sales? Can you track sales from either platform?

And now that G+ has been dead awhile, how is the MeWe OSR community doing?