Quote from: MaddmanLet me amend what I said about min maxers being assholes.  This only happens when people do it to disrupt the game.  I mean if four people are trying to tell involved stories, and a fifth is dominating the game with his twinked out uber ninja of doom, he's being thoughtless at best and an asshole at worst.

However, if all five players want to twink and munch out their characters to their heart's content, more power to them.  It's only a problem when it becomes disruptive and interferes with other people's fun.

Well said. Some of the most memorable games I have played in were done this way, with an entire party of uber-characters.

Not to mention that logically just about every D&D character that doesn't have skills like Craft, Profession, Perform, Area Knowledge, etc representing things like hobbies, their family's profession and knowledge of where they grew-up can be considered "min-maxed."

Quote from: MaddmanLet me amend what I said about min maxers being assholes.  This only happens when people do it to disrupt the game.  I mean if four people are trying to tell involved stories, and a fifth is dominating the game with his twinked out uber ninja of doom, he's being thoughtless at best and an asshole at worst.

However, if all five players want to twink and munch out their characters to their heart's content, more power to them.  It's only a problem when it becomes disruptive and interferes with other people's fun.

And now we agree, mostly.

I've also seen "mixed-group" games work, where the one guy has a completely optimised character, and the others don't and they were totally honest about it.  In both of the games where it really flew, there were special things for those characters to do - one was a Jouster, a lot like in the (lame, but funny) movie A Knight's Tale; the other was the group's bruiser in a 1920's crime family game.  If a player like this finds themself in a group that works differently, and speaks up, it's entirely possible to actually integrate their fun into everyone else's.

If they speak up.

Quote from: MaddmanThis only happens when people do it to disrupt the game.

I think that's the core concept, right there.  Assholes disrupt games.  Seems like quite a few assholes are also man-mixers/min-maxers.  But, I've met drama whore assholes, bitch about politics instead of playing assholes, never-know-the-rules assholes, and a few other flavors, too.
 
Personally, I'm in it for the story, first.  I've come to realize, though, that twiddling numbers can be kinda fun.

Also, the exasperated DM's are the ones who are going to post about their nightmarish experiences with min-maxers.  Those of us who have had min-maxers who are not dumbasses aren't going to be posting.  I have had both the asshat (and been the asshat) min-maxer and had the good player min-maxer.  The former was a nightmare, while the latter still unintentionally caused me some grief (but it was tolerable).

So, I will say that the min-maxer isn't always the problem, but at times limits do help the sanctity of the game (er...I mean sanity of the gamemaster).

Quote from: YamoNot to mention that logically just about every D&D character that doesn't have skills like Craft, Profession, Perform, Area Knowledge, etc representing things like hobbies, their family's profession and knowledge of where they grew-up can be considered "min-maxed."

Actually, I usually give a couple of these things to characters for free IMC. It would be the unusual character who didn't have at least a basic knowledge of his native culture and the area in which he was raised, as well as basic knowledge of the profession/craft of his family.

The one thing that puzzles me about True20 is how easy it is for new players when it sounds like you've got a feat for every possible class ability and then some - leading to new players having to look over another long list to pick out what they can do, which seems to get in the way of the benefit of classes for new players, which is that there aren't as many choices to make to get started?

Admittedly, in d20 you still need to pick a feat, but the phb has suggested feats (and not as many feats).

Thanks.

Quote from: jcfialaThe one thing that puzzles me about True20 is how easy it is for new players when it sounds like you've got a feat for every possible class ability and then some - leading to new players having to look over another long list to pick out what they can do, which seems to get in the way of the benefit of classes for new players, which is that there aren't as many choices to make to get started?

Admittedly, in d20 you still need to pick a feat, but the phb has suggested feats (and not as many feats).

Thanks.

In True20 the character gets 1 feat each level, plus a handfull at the start, so it's not like ya hafta pick all the feats at once, plus I've never had any trouble at all choosing feats because I started out with a character concept in mind. It's even easier for D20 vets because most of the feats are the same as DnD feats/abilities. Plus, without PrC a player doesn't have the headache of trying to take feats and skills just to qualify for a PrC. I'd say the greatest flexibility of the system benefits rogueish characters. I can want to design and play an assassin, take the stealth and sneak attack, forget about trap finding and concentrate on social skills, poison-making, maybe some unique weapons. Or I can want to play a pickpocket and simply take sleight of hand, escape artist, bluff, etc, and once again not worry about trap-finding or sneak-attack. It's really nice to have the flexibility to design pretty much any kind of character I want, without losing the utility of class-abilities that don't apply to my character concept just because that's what the class comes with. It's not an original arguement I know, but it's definiitely a valid one.

Oh, and in Blue Rose, there are "paths" for each role (class) that list a suggested feat progression with which to build that character concept. I would imagine that many settings that will be created for True20 will have similar aids for new players. I know that even in the small taste of the Caliphate Nights setting that's in the True20 book, there are "archetypes" that give a suggested feat and skill list with which to start the character out in order to play that character concept. I imagine when Paradigm releases the full setting book for Caliphate Nights they will include expanded archetype progression lists just like Blue Rose did with paths. Players can deviate from the lists to develop their own character concepts if they wish of course...it's beautiful really The flexibility brings a tear to me eye

Quote from: MaddmanThe best solution to min-maxing is not to play with munchkins, but call me crazy.  I'd rather the system just let me do cool stuff, rather than put a bunch of constraints on the system to try and stop people from breaking it.  The game rules will never be able to stop someone from being an asshole.

Ok, you're crazy.

When you play chess, do you also complain about the "restrictiveness" of not being able to move the pieces any way you like?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, you're crazy.

When you play chess, do you also complain about the "restrictiveness" of not being able to move the pieces any way you like?

RPGPundit

No, not really, but there's more than one way to play chess, you know.  Steve Jackson's Knightmare Chess comes to mind.

Quote from: OddveigNo, not really, but there's more than one way to play chess, you know.  Steve Jackson's Knightmare Chess comes to mind.

hmm. so rollmaster would be like star-trek 3d chess?

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, you're crazy.

When you play chess, do you also complain about the "restrictiveness" of not being able to move the pieces any way you like?

RPGPundit

No.  I'm not playing chess.  Actually in D&D when a player was taking too long to figure out exactly where he wanted to move I've said "This ain't chess man, just move your guy where you want him to go."

In RPGs, I'm very much a Yes kind of GM.

Quote from: TechnomancerHas this been updated again, Levi.  The copy I have is about 3 months old.

Now it has.

http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/Perfect20_2006.pdf

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNow it has.

http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/Perfect20_2006.pdf

Looks good, Levi. :win:

Do you have a summary of the main changes and tweaks?