Quote from: YamoI thought it was a terrible decision for them to use classes instead of the straight point-buy system from Mutants & Masterminds. As it is, just buying M&M and ignoring the superhero artwork gets you a better generic d20 game than True20, which is a shame.

I believe Yamo has a +5 Wisdom bonus.

Quote from: YamoI thought it was a terrible decision for them to use classes instead of the straight point-buy system from Mutants & Masterminds. As it is, just buying M&M and ignoring the superhero artwork gets you a better generic d20 game than True20, which is a shame.

Given that the classes (warrior, expert, and adept) are incredibly broad and open, what exactly is it that you feel is so awful about the class system in True20? Or is it just that you're one of those people with a fashionable dislike of classes in general, even though classes are proven to fix far more problems than they cause?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RatatoskPersonally True20 is still too rules-bloated for me but I can see the appeal.

Have you seen Core Elements

"Core Elements is a stripped-down, rules light version of Wizards of the Coast's popular d20 System, originally written by James Hargrove and expanded upon by me. This expansion, the Core Elements Toolbox Edition, includes a number of new options like an expanded section on supernatural powers, a new insanity system, rules for vehicles and car chases, and more! It's got everything you need (more or less!) in under 20 pages"

And it's Free It reminds me of a Fudgified d20

Quote from: RPGPunditGiven that the classes (warrior, expert, and adept) are incredibly broad and open, what exactly is it that you feel is so awful about the class system in True20? Or is it just that you're one of those people with a fashionable dislike of classes in general, even though classes are proven to fix far more problems than they cause?

RPGPundit

They are proven to do no such thing.  I find classes rather constraining and distasteful, but True20's are so broadly defined they're more like a general type rather than predefined role.  They can be used to match the rules and character abilities to the concept, something that often requires a lot of gymnastics in D&D.

Quote from: MaddmanThey are proven to do no such thing.  I find classes rather constraining and distasteful, but True20's are so broadly defined they're more like a general type rather than predefined role.  They can be used to match the rules and character abilities to the concept, something that often requires a lot of gymnastics in D&D.

If you don't have classes, you have an open invitation to min-maxing. So yes, for that reason alone, classes are a mechanic where the fix is far more important than the side-effects. Of course, some class systems are done better than others.
I think the open-endedness of True20 works much better, for example, than D&D's class system.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOr is it just that you're one of those people with a fashionable dislike of classes in general, even though classes are proven to fix far more problems than they cause?

RPGPundit

I didn't know you posted here. Nice. I've commented in your blog as willmistretta.

Anyway, I think classes have their strengths, but also potentially their weaknesses. I wouldn't consider playing D&D without them because of the way the game is structured around the archetypes of D&D fantasy. True20's classes seem more like d20 Modern's to me, just broad enough to be both flavorless and pointless. d20 Modern did have some nice prestige classes, though, which sort of made up for it.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you don't have classes, you have an open invitation to min-maxing.

Again, though, execution matters. Classes, by their mere presence, don't ward-off min-maxing like a magic talisman.

If you start-up a D&D game and allow any published prestige class from any source, there's huge min-maxing potential in selecting the most unbalanced ones.

GM scrutiny can never be taken-out of the picture.

Quote from: RatatoskPersonally True20 is still too rules-bloated for me but I can see the appeal.

You want smaller?

How's 40 pages sound?

http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/Perfect20_2005.pdf

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you don't have classes, you have an open invitation to min-maxing.  

You say that like it's a bad thing that should be purged from gaming.  For some people, half the fun is in making their character as uber as they can.  

Any system can be abused to min-max.  If that goes against your group's philosophy, it shouldn't be a problem even if the system does allow it.  Just don't do it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou want smaller?

How's 40 pages sound?

http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/Perfect20_2005.pdf

Has this been updated again, Levi.  The copy I have is about 3 months old.

Quote from: TechnomancerHas this been updated again, Levi.  The copy I have is about 3 months old.

Not yet.

I'm at work on some very different stuff, right now.

Quote from: YamoTrue20's classes seem more like d20 Modern's to me, just broad enough to be both flavorless and pointless.

IMO True20's classes are meant to be (and also IMO are better off that way) flavorless and pointless. They are meant to be a base, upon which a player, using feats and skills, can build flavor and a point. Remember too that unlike DnD D20, True20 is meant to be a rules system for any kind of genre....more like D20 Modern than D20 DnD. Don't get me wrong, I play and thoroughly enjoy D20 DnD, but I prefer to build and run a game in True20 using both a modified Blue Rose setting and homebrew setting I'm building for the reasons I've already listed. I guess it's just a personal choice thing. Oh, yeah, another thing I like about True20 is that it's really very simple to port a great many things from D20 DnD over to True20 with very little effort.

Quote from: SigmundIMO True20's classes are meant to be (and also IMO are better off that way) flavorless and pointless. They are meant to be a base, upon which a player, using feats and skills, can build flavor and a point. Remember too that unlike DnD D20, True20 is meant to be a rules system for any kind of genre....more like D20 Modern than D20 DnD. Don't get me wrong, I play and thoroughly enjoy D20 DnD, but I prefer to build and run a game in True20 using both a modified Blue Rose setting and homebrew setting I'm building for the reasons I've already listed. I guess it's just a personal choice thing. Oh, yeah, another thing I like about True20 is that it's really very simple to port a great many things from D20 DnD over to True20 with very little effort.

A "virtually classless" class system is, to me, just as pointless as a supposedly universal point-buy game where you can only spend the points in four pre-set ways. Necromancer is a class. Jedi Knight is a class. Expert Sniper is a class. "Guys who is, you know, really good at...uh, certain skills" (expert) doesn't cut it.

Also, Boingo! Hells, yes! I even have a "Danny Elfman is my co-pilot" license plate frame.

Quote from: YamoA "virtually classless" class system is, to me, just as pointless as a supposedly universal point-buy game where you can only spend the points in four pre-set ways. Necromancer is a class. Jedi Knight is a class. Expert Sniper is a class. "Guys who is, you know, really good at...uh, certain skills" (expert) doesn't cut it.

Also, Boingo! Hells, yes! I even have a "Danny Elfman is my co-pilot" license plate frame.

Whelp...as the saying goes, YMMV. The Almost classless classes work for me I guess. I've played GURPS too and I just like the simple classes better.

WOOT! Boingo rules. One of the best shows ever. I have my avatar inked into my flesh I want one of those license plate frames! Where can I get one?

Quote from: SigmundWhelp...as the saying goes, YMMV. The Almost classless classes work for me I guess. I've played GURPS too and I just like the simple classes better.

WOOT! Boingo rules. One of the best shows ever. I have my avatar inked into my flesh I want one of those license plate frames! Where can I get one?

Have it custom-made like I did.