Thought I'd share some random rpg related thinking I was doing the other day...

D&D is the biggest game in the rpg world.  It always has been, and barring any major unforseen events, always will be (as long as D&D continues in existence).  So whichever company, first TSR and then Wizards that made D&D is also the biggest game company in the RPG world.

Well who is #2?

My thought is that this slot has been occupied by a number of companies over the years:

First Phase 1977-mid 80's: GDW, primarily because of Traveller.

Second Phase mid 80's to 1990: Palladium, TMNT was a really hot seller, and back in the late 80's I remember there being as much Palladium stuff as D&D stuff on the shelf in mall bookstore.

Third Phase: Early 90's: Palladium and FASA duke it out for #2.  Palladium release Rifts.  FASA comes out with first Shadowrun and a few years later Earthdawn.

Mid 90's to present: Once the dust settles between Palladium and FASA, the winner is....White Wolf.  Vampire and it's sibling games become the standard alternative to D&D in pretty much any book store.


So what do you think?  Is my recollection overly colored by my own gaming experiences or does this ring true?  I don't know what sales figures are like, beyond the obvious that D&D blows everything away.  I based my "analysis" to use the term very loosely on what I remember being stocked in a regular BOOK store (read Waldenbooks or Barnes and Noble) not a game store.  I think to really be #2 you need to be reaching out to the mass market not just being popular with people who already play rpgs.  

Going forward do you see anybody outside Wizards and White Wolf making the push to get their game onto mass market shelves?  Really the only things I see out there now beyond those 2 is an occasional copy of the Serenity rpg, a Rifts Ultimate edition here or there, and just recently a copy of the new traveller.

I've always assumed White Wolf held the #2 spot for sales and had for a long time.  I never did any research, it was just how it appeared to me since my friends got into Vampire and Werewolf a decade or more ago.

A few tweaks. I'd agree on GDW being big at some point, Palladium selling well for quite a while, and White Wolf holding #2 since Vampire got popular.
 
I'm not sure how much market share FASA ever had.
 
Steve Jackson Games has had a decent market share for a while, possibly #2 prior to White Wolf.
 
West End was fairly big, mostly due to Star Wars. They might have been #2 at some point.
 
We had a thread of sales near current sales reports that showed White Wolf and SJackson doing well.
 
For the future?  Green Ronin has done ok with M&M, if they had a cool new product combined with their current reputation, they could jump to #2.  But you might also see something out of left field with a game company or book publisher with the marketing muscle and/or cool product to push with a new style of game with a broad appeal.  Not rpgs but both MTG and Heroclicks came out of nowhere to be big sellers.  I wouldn't be surprised to see something light rpgish doing something similar; not big but entertainment company standards but big enough to be #2 rpg.

FASA was HUGE. Battletech! Computer Game Licenses!

I think the problem is that in the pre-WW days, there was no clear #2.  There were a half dozen or more companies that were always tied in the #2 slot, and the rankings would fluctuate a lot based on who had the biggest new release that year.

It's not terribly different that what goes on now with the #3 slot, except that there was a whole lot more pie to go around.

Also keep in mind that everybody was doing big sales in the 80's and early 90's.  ICE had tons of sales.  GDW had tons of sales.  Palladium had tons of sales.  FASA.  Steve Jackson.  WEG.  R. Talisorian.  Etc.

Back in those days, there were a couple dozen different systems that were all pretty popular and pretty well supported.

I think for a couple of years in the late 80s ICE might have been #2. This was before Palladium released RIFTS, and MERP and Rolemaster were going gangbusters. They also owned HERO at this point. Check out the staff credits in some ICE products of the era, they were a big company.

I think during the late 80s/early 90s, it may have been possible there was a different #2 (or at least rotating) each year.

Here's a question:  who would folks like to see as #2?  White Wolf? Paizo? Green Ronin?  Goodman Games?  Troll Lord?  One of our own neighborhood kick-ass publishers?  A half-dozen companies all capable of hitting that same mark battling it out monthly?

I'm okay with White Wolf being #2, but that's because I enjoy their games.

Buuut. If I had to choose between WW and Pinnacle (Savage Worlds being my favorite game), I'd go with Pinnacle.

Quote from: Zachary The First;256623Here's a question:  who would folks like to see as #2?

Wizards.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;256677Wizards.

Then #1???....

I wonder how big the secondary rpg market is compared to the companies putting out new books?  I mean is the more dollars in sales if you add up all the used stuff, lets say non-D&D used stuff, sold on ebay, amazon,etc than new stuff being sold by WW, Palladium, or Pinnacle?

Quote from: Zachary The First;256693

Then #1???....

You want my "pie in the sky" wish or my "only modestly unbelievable" wish?*

Or is it sufficient to say that who's #1 isn't as important as the fact that I would find it satisfying to think that wizards lost ground over 4e?

* - Crafty and Paizo respectively, BTW.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;256712You want my "pie in the sky" wish or my "only modestly unbelievable" wish?*

Or is it sufficient to say that who's #1 isn't as important as the fact that I would find it satisfying to think that wizards lost ground over 4e?

* - Crafty and Paizo respectively, BTW.

I think the worst-case scenario for 4e D&D would not be slipping to #2, but Hasbro deciding it just wasn't worth it to make a tabletop RPG anymore.  Mind you, I'm not prediciting anything of the sort, I just see a full pullout from RPGs more likely than WotC dropping to #2.

But I am curious to see what sort of chunk Paizo ends up with.

I'd love to see ICE at #1 or even #2 again.  It won't happen under the current management and ownership but a guy can dream can't he?

Quote from: David Johansen;256754I'd love to see ICE at #1 or even #2 again.  It won't happen under the current management and ownership but a guy can dream can't he?

I think with a little care and attention, ICE might eventually beat out the zombies of WEG and R. Talisorian.  And with a small miracle, they may even eventually pass what's left of Chaosium, but I wouldn't even bet on that.