Someone's got to benefit from telling the gullibles there are only 9 ways to think of morality, The especially addled folks use it casually in conversation or media as if its normal to not consider viewpoints outside of a particular spectrum or chart spread via popular media.

The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 24, 2023, 06:00:12 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

Pretty much yes. I'm ok with still using the Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic spectrum as broad types. D&D is a game, not a place to explore all the nuances of human morality.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 24, 2023, 06:00:12 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

99% of D&D is made up bullshit. The rest is cheeto dust and empty Mt. Dew cans.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 24, 2023, 07:15:21 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 24, 2023, 06:00:12 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

Pretty much yes. I'm ok with still using the Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic spectrum as broad types. D&D is a game, not a place to explore all the nuances of human morality.

Maybe not nuances, but I do use the Virtues in place of Alignment.

Temperance, Justice, Wisdom, Fortitude, Humility, Hope and Charity.

You're supposed to be playing a hero in my campaigns so embrace one and try to have your character live it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 24, 2023, 07:34:59 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 24, 2023, 07:15:21 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 24, 2023, 06:00:12 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

Pretty much yes. I'm ok with still using the Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic spectrum as broad types. D&D is a game, not a place to explore all the nuances of human morality.

Maybe not nuances, but I do use the Virtues in place of Alignment.

Temperance, Justice, Wisdom, Fortitude, Humility, Hope and Charity.

You're supposed to be playing a hero in my campaigns so embrace one and try to have your character live it.

Nothing wrong with that. I can run an all lawful B/X game and get the same thing with less fiddlyness.

Quote from: GiantToenail on August 24, 2023, 04:29:44 AM
Someone's got to benefit from telling the gullibles there are only 9 ways to think of morality, The especially addled folks use it casually in conversation or media as if its normal to not consider viewpoints outside of a particular spectrum or chart spread via popular media.

Only the terminally stupid think it is for something other than an RPG. So, don't worry about those people unless they get violent towards you.  Then, remember what they said about Sam Colt...

  I do. Because it is a shorthand framework to structure worldviews while allowing various gradients within each of the 9 sections. That way LG can disagree with LG on minutiae within their own 'square', so you can add a secondary 9 section grid within a square and show deeper nuance within. Repeat as necessary, elephants & turtles all the way on down.

It's a useful tool to quickly define your parameters from the macro- to the micro-, like color theory or elements of grammatical style. It's not about the confinement of the rules or how you "break free" of them, it's about learning how to walk before you run. It is a framework (and a concise and manageable one) on how to be a student and teach yourself world building, psychology, and dramatic tension with quick sketches in shorter strokes.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 24, 2023, 06:00:12 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

D&Disms are the worst. They pollute the fantasy genre with incoherent nonsense that people mindlessly repeat without critical thought. We already had enough of that before Gygax and co's OCD made it worse.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2023, 12:30:45 PM

D&Disms are the worst. They pollute the fantasy genre with incoherent nonsense that people mindlessly repeat without critical thought. We already had enough of that before Gygax and co's OCD made it worse.

Only mindless people do that.  So, not a real problem. ALL fantasy rules are nonsense BTW.  Only rules modeled on reality aren't incoherent. 

Who benefits? Groups that use alignment in a manner that fits their playstyles.

Outside of organized play, there is NO RAW D&D. You play as your group decides. Simple shit. It's like people get off arguing over rules. Get a real conversation finally 

This is one of those things that never comes up with casuals at the table. Maaaaybe once or twice in four decades.

I ran a Law vs. Chaos with OD&D as the chassis. Nobody cared it was missing. I've run most of the other D&D versions that have 9-box. Nobody cared it was there.

If I were building a game, I wouldn't have it. But it just isn't a huge issue. As the famous philosopher Shawn Corey Carter said, "I've got 99 problems when running a campaign, but 9-box alignment ain't one."

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 24, 2023, 06:00:12 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on August 24, 2023, 04:59:52 AM
The point of "9 ways to think of morality" isn't that there is only 9 ways, but that alignment captures 9 different fantasy archetypes it would make sense to place into a fantasy game like D&D. It serves as a template for the player to build off of, just like classes do, for their roleplaying.

Except that there are no such archetypes and Gary Gygax made those up by adding Good, Neutral and Evil to the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic used in OG D&D and mashing them together. The 9 alignments didn't exist before AD&D. They're a BS made up D&Dism.

Whatever the source, they work well and do the job in D&D. They aren't supposed to be the complete picture of morality but encapsulate good adventuring archetypes for gameplay.

Alignment gives you a basic framework to go by.  If you want to be good, play neutral good, you want to be evil be neutral evil.  You want to follow the law no matter the consequences and enjoy taking peoples lands through famine play a communists, I mean play Lawful Evil.  It gives you a basic framework for monster behavior.  Chaotic tribes types tends to have some sacrifice themselves and others run away if it goes bad whereas a lawful hive types fight to the bitter end to save the hive.  People who has issues with alignment tend to have a political axe to grind with everything else about RPG's as well.  Typically because the concept of codifiable good and evil destroys their ability to inflict evil on people for their own fucked up needs.