TheRPGSite

So what's the deal with this? Other than having a very nice looking hardcover format, what sort of game is it?

you say white hack, I say...Diane Warren?

At first I thought it was another in the long parade of useless retroclones.

But it is its own system overall.
Just d20s and d6s.
3 base classes, Deft, Strong and Wise
3 extra classes, Brave, Fortunate and Species. Has two example species, Dagonite and Marionette.

https://whitehackrpg.wordpress.com/ (https://whitehackrpg.wordpress.com/)

Stupid name though.

I haven't seen it, but I read 'around' it quite a bit (reviews, blogs, etc.) when I was on an OSR shopping spree, and ended up concluding it didn't have anything to offer me. I think all systems in this genre fall into one of the following groups:

- The originals. Seriously, how hard is it to track down a copy of Modvay or the 1E PHB? These things are everywhere.

- Copies that simply re-organize and edit, maybe gently expand on, the originals without a bunch of new cruft or re-branded but equivalent mechanics. I would say Labyrinth Lord might be the prototypical example of this. A couple tweaks that look like everyone's house rules could be fine; more and you end up in one of the next two categories:

- Creative, interesting games that are inspired by the originals, but have differences that really bring something new to the table. DCC is a good example of this. You might or might not want to play it (I personally find it a little hard to run because of all the tables, and wish it were more compatible with B/X or 1E modules). But you have to respect its style and ideas.

– Games that try to look and smell like the originals, but introduce lots of changes I would call meaningless. Who gives a shit what kind of dice you roll for a saving throw? What difference does it make if you re-name the Cleric or Thief class to be something else? I have no patience for this sort of shit. It is like all the precious new lingo of Burning Wheel with none of the new ideas.

It's a matter of judgement where you classify any given game between the last three groups above. I decided Whitehack looked a lot like #4.

I have a copy (two, really). I've mentioned it briefly in a few other threads. It's in the white box / retro / OSR space without being an exact clone.

A few of the things that I find I really like about WH that seem to be unique (or not run of the average clone anyway):

* Core mechanic (for combat, ST, ability / skill checks) is d20, roll equal to or under your Ability (or ST or Attack Value (AV). Higher up to the target is better (quality). "blackjack" style, I've heard it called.

* Magic ("Miracles") are more free form, and cost HP. This results in spell listings getting dumped from the rules.

* "Groups" are essentially tags which get applied to Abilities (or in some cases don't have to match one) and grant a mechanical benefit - often a double positive d20 roll (and take the best) - when the tag applies. Groups cover race / species, vocation, and affiliations / memberships. This is where you wind up with difference between class and vocation ... so someone taking a Strong (class) Priest (Vocation) gets you a very different result in play than someone taking a Wise (class) Priest (Vocation), or even Wise (class) Holy Warrior (vocation).

* Ability Mods. One thing I really like is that as a result of the Ability check process, ability mod scores (the old +1, +2, etc) drop out almost entirely. There's a few - Str gets a +1 AV at 13 and a +1 damage at 16 - but they don't modify any Ability rolls. So, having a 13 vs 12 Strength is its own reward when you come time to roll. I like that - it really flattens it down to just meaningful ability scores.

I ran some Strange Stars for some friends the other weekend using WH, and it was a blast.

Quote from: Larsdangly;837084I think all systems in this genre fall into one of the following groups:

- The originals. Seriously, how hard is it to track down a copy of Modvay or the 1E PHB? These things are everywhere.

- Copies that simply re-organize and edit, maybe gently expand on, the originals without a bunch of new cruft or re-branded but equivalent mechanics.

- Creative, interesting games that are inspired by the originals, but have differences that really bring something new to the table. DCC is a good example of this.

– Games that try to look and smell like the originals, but introduce lots of changes I would call meaningless. Who gives a shit what kind of dice you roll for a saving throw? What difference does it make if you re-name the Cleric or Thief class to be something else?

This is a really useful way to look at them.

Any other standout examples in category #3, bringing something new to the table?

Quote from: fuseboy;837100This is a really useful way to look at them.

Any other standout examples in category #3, bringing something new to the table?

Nothing recent is jumping into my mind at the moment, but glancing at my gaming shelf I might say original Chivalry and Sorcery is both #3 and #4: wonderfully evocative medieval european setting details, chivalric classes and magic; plus a shit ton of impossibly complex and obscure rules and acronyms. Yet at its core it is a D&D variant (class and level based; AC and HP combat; spell levels; orcs and gnolls and hill giants and so forth).

I have the 1st edition and it's basically a more narrativist interpretation of OD&D. If you start with OD&D and come from a "story" angle vs. "game" angle, Whitehack is something you'd end up with. The 2nd edition just sounds like "more of the same"...I'll probably buy it.

Quote from: Brad;837281I have the 1st edition and it's basically a more narrativist interpretation of OD&D. If you start with OD&D and come from a "story" angle vs. "game" angle, Whitehack is something you'd end up with. The 2nd edition just sounds like "more of the same"...I'll probably buy it.

That's an apt description.  I wish someone had put that in the ad copy or in the first reviews.  I picked up the 1st based on some pretty heavy praise, and I was disappointed after the buildup.  My first impression was, yes, this certainly is someone's homebrew/heartbreaker, but it's not blowing my mind or displacing my favorite rule set.  But I may take a second look some time I can come back with no other expectations of it.

I had the original and didn't care for it.  It was $10 for the softcover at that time.  $24 for a 64 page hardcover is steep.

Quote from: RPGPundit;837040So what's the deal with this? Other than having a very nice looking hardcover format, what sort of game is it?

Hello!

I’m the author of Whitehack. I understand you want other people’s opinions, and I kind of said my piece with the game text and the presentation on whitehackrpg.wordpress.com. But I would still like to comment a bit on some of the comments.

+ The name. I kind of agree with Omega on the name. I named the first edition in the tradition of Red Box Hack, Blueholme, Whitebox etc., and in that context, the name is at least descriptive. I considered changing it for the second edition, but came to the conclusion that it would be misleading.

+ The category 4 judgement by Larsdangly. I respect his judgement, but I have a hard time understanding how he came to his conclusions based on reviews and blogs. I would urge people to read for themselves before passing their own judgements. Because most things written about Whitehack are clearly on the plus side, and if there is something indicating what Larsdangly said, I haven’t read it. As Molotov points out, the class example of category 4 qualities doesn’t apply to Whitehack. The saving throw die example doesn’t apply either. Whitehack uses a traditional d20 for saving throws. The only difference is that it is a pendragon roll, same as attacks and task rolls. The advantage of this is that you can use ST values (and attack values and attribute values) directly in Whitehack auctions. (Auctions is a powerful tool and time saver that can be used for drawn out contests like chases, tavern brawls, fights with large groups of mooks etc.)

+ Brad and Whitehack as a narrativist game. It is an interesting observation, and I think I see how it can be made, but I don’t agree with it. While there are open spaces in the game that both players and Referee provide content for, and while things like the groups mechanism will urge everyone to help build/flesh out a setting, Whitehack is *not* a narrativist game in the forge sense. I don’t agree with what I believe are the ideological implications of GNS, and I think Whitehack conflicts with some of the core ideas of that theory.

+ Saladman and what should be on the cover of Whitehack. I am seriously considering a Saladman Version of Whitehack :). I would give it a different cover, after reading several posts about how the information about the game has been insufficient or misleading in some way. Saladman, did you read whitehackrpg.wordpress.com before buying? I think everything you’ve wished you had known before buying has been there all along.

Am I imagining things, or did the Whitehack author post a rather lengthy reply that was subsequently deleted..?

Quote from: Brad;837629Am I imagining things, or did the Whitehack author post a rather lengthy reply that was subsequently deleted..?

Yes, I have the notification in my email.

Quote from: Brad;837629Am I imagining things, or did the Whitehack author post a rather lengthy reply that was subsequently deleted..?

I'm pretty sure I read it too

I did, but shit came up minutes after posting, and I won't have time to participate properly in the discussion. In retrospect, I don't think the post was worth reading anyway. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Even though it wasn't my thing, I hope whatever shit you have going on gets cleared up and you're able to discuss your game.  

I don't know if you can bring back the softcover, but I hope you'd be able to.  Hardcovers on Lulu are pricey, softcover is a nice cheap option.

Is this available in PDF anywhere? I didn't see it.

Quote from: Enlightened;837643Is this available in PDF anywhere? I didn't see it.

It's a print only product.

Quote from: RF Victor;837691It's a print only product.

That's the only reason I haven't bought a copy. I can't buy printed games unless I'm willing to give up a game I already have (due to a deal with my wife who does not believe in decorating with my 1000+ games). Of course now that I've heard it is more of a narrative game, I'm not sure I'd even get a PDF unless it was on sale at a good price.

Quote from: RandallS;837694That's the only reason I haven't bought a copy. I can't buy printed games unless I'm willing to give up a game I already have (due to a deal with my wife who does not believe in decorating with my 1000+ games). Of course now that I've heard it is more of a narrative game, I'm not sure I'd even get a PDF unless it was on sale at a good price.

I'm on the same boat. I like the idea of the game, it looks interesting and I'd love to read it, but being in Brazil it's a $38 (with slow shipping!) 64 page rulebook I probably won't get to actually play...

Quote from: Whitehack;837638I did, but shit came up minutes after posting, and I won't have time to participate properly in the discussion. In retrospect, I don't think the post was worth reading anyway. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Well, I hope you'll say your part later, since it's always good to hear from the actual designer in this type of thread.

Welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: RPGPundit;838033Well, I hope you'll say your part later, since it's always good to hear from the actual designer in this type of thread.

Welcome to theRPGsite!

Thank you! I’ll make a big ass post and hope it lasts a while.

I won’t argue with someone’s feelings, but since there are no references to anything in Whitehack nor to anything written about it, I do have a hard time understanding how Larsdangly came to his conclusions. Almost everything written about Whitehack is on a positive note, and the examples of a category 4 game don’t apply to my game.

I find Brad’s comment in this thread interesting because it is based on an actual reading of first edition Whitehack and attempts to categorize my game. I’m not sure I agree with him, though. Whitehack is explicitly in conflict with core narrativist notions, for example R.E.’s ideas about not mixing creative agendas and about games supporting or not supporting storytelling. Whitehack is based on the *conflict* between storytelling and game world simulation, and the rules are mostly there to make things *harder*. This is explained in the introductions to Chapters II and III in the second edition. There is a ton of other stuff I don’t agree with in GNS theory and R.E.’s articles (I like reading them, though). That said, I can *guess* that Brad is thinking about things like the groups system in Whitehack, which drives world building, or the negotiation of special abilities, which distributes traditional Referee power. Those qualities are in Whitehack. But I wouldn’t say they have much to do with narrativism in the usual sense of the word. Similarly, the example setting and adventures are thematic (in the classic sense that they are powered by some problem or question), but again, I don’t think this quality should be reserved for R.E.’s narrativism.

So what kind of game is Whitehack? When I make a game, I add and chip away and reshape until the thing I have before me seems right. I am curious about what I want, not sure of it. So Whitehack didn’t start with a clean concept, and I doubt it can be reduced to one either. It is easier to answer how the game is being used: I use Whitehack to run all my fantasy RPG modules, not just in the first rules tradition, but in other traditions as well. Others seem to do the same, but they also use Whitehack for things like planetary romance, space opera, 19th century grand tours and to hack their own games. Due to the way character creation, character powers, magic and monsters work, Whitehack is extremely easy to bend towards different settings and genres, without changing anything in the rules text or adding classes or spells. It plays easily in the sense that you don’t have to memorize or look up tons of rules in order to play a high level druid or prepare an adventure, but it is still a challenging game in that you have to make hard choices in play. I also think that there is an emergent quality to Whitehack play, perhaps because setting background and interpretations of miracles and special abilities develop automatically over time. All in all, I simply think of Whitehack as a brief and traditional, quality fantasy game.

Speaking about brevity, and about price, I completely understand that not everyone can afford my game. But when I buy a game, I don’t try to get as many pages as possible per dollar. I try to find a game that has seen some editing. It is true that Whitehack can be very expensive if you buy it at full price and international shipping. But it is equally true that there are regularly Lulu coupons for free international shipping, often combinable with other discount coupons. Many international customers have bought the standard version for $18 and the notebook version for $21, shipping included. For the level of “completeness” that Whitehack offers, *and* the hard editing, I think that is a fair price.

First edition Whitehack was a stapled softcover, and I tried that for second edition as well. But I decided against it. It didn’t feel right. It is hard to explain, but I think that when I get a stapled book, I want it to be thin in relation to its format. So while 64 pages works for a Moldvay copy, it makes Whitehack feel too thick. Also, Lulu has made a very small change in paper for stapled trade sized booklets. First edition Whitehack had numbered versions, and I think up until 1.3/1.4, the cover had a thicker stock. After that, the cover is a bit flimsy. I think the decision to go hard cover was a good one. It gave Second Edition a stronger artifactual identity, and opened up for a notebook version. Quite a few commenters seem to like how Whitehack looks. This said, I may add a soft cover version later on, but not for the time being.

Quote from: Larsdangly;837084It's a matter of judgement where you classify any given game between the last three groups above. I decided Whitehack looked a lot like #4.

Whitehack is definitely #3:

Quote from: Larsdangly;837084- Creative, interesting games that are inspired by the originals, but have differences that really bring something new to the table.

Second Edition even more than First (which is the one most reviews are talking about). But even First Edition is way different than S&W Whitebox/0D&D (the "seed" from which Whitehack grew into its own).

The sheet and the familiar stats make it look deceptively like a stylish Microlite 20 but in actual play it's its own beast. The groups, slots, free-form miracles (spells), double rolls, and auctions make for a radically different play experience.

I have to say, even though I feel like your post actually explained very little to me while using very big words, the language and implications of that language strongly suggest to me that this is not a game I would particularly care for.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838463I have to say, even though I feel like your post actually explained very little to me while using very big words, the language and implications of that language strongly suggest to me that this is not a game I would particularly care for.

Try this explanation I posted in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=28264) before (here updated to Second Edition):

What's different from OD&D?

It has only three character classes:

• Deft (thieves, wandering monks, spies, marksmen, rangers, assassins,...)
  
• Strong (warriors, brigands, guards, knights, bounty hunters, barbarians,...)
  
• Wise (wizards, priests, alchemists, exorcists, demonologists, druids, runecarvers, bards, mad scientists,...)
  

The GM chapter has two more, "rare" classes:

• Brave (underdogs and unlikely heroes, failed apprentices, gardeners dreaming of dragons and elves, wannabe bards, peasants,...)
  
• Fortunate (royal heirs, rich and influential merchants, star performers, religious icons,...)
  

(I am not sure those are really needed since they could be modeled using the basic classes...)

Attributes are the usual ones, 3d6, with scores of 13/16 giving some bonuses for some classes (e.g., only the Strong receive a melee bonus from high STR).

Every task roll in the game is roll under, whether it's an attribute check, saving throw, or to-hit roll.
To-hit is roll-under Attack Value, but over AC (blackjack style). (That's the system I used in Dragon Warriors as well because I didn't like the subtraction bit in DW. Of course, the system would have broken down by rank 8 when Attack reached 20+, but we never came that far... In Whitehack the numbers are lower to begin with.)

Single saving throw, like in Swords & Wizardry, but roll-under.
(First Edition supported both ascending and descending AC and had the appropriate rolls and tables.)

Weapon damage is d6 plus/minus bonus (no polyhedrals).

Task and Skill rolls are basically Attribute rolls, D&D Gazetteer/AD&D2 style: roll d20 under Attribute. (In AD&D2 you learned specific skills and received a bonus on the check, in Whitehack you belong to Groups.)

Groups are broad "bundles"/definitions of skills, contacts and information and come in three flavors: Species, Vocations, and Affiliations. (Species have to be chosen first if you want to play a non-human, obviously.) Groups are written next to an Attribute (that's the reason why the Attribute listings are that big on the character sheet):
(http://www.sphaerenmeisters-spiele.de/WebRoot/Store/Shops/15455106/5297/29DF/9FF2/8B12/D80A/C0A8/2BB8/BE56/Whitehack.jpg)
(That's a First Edition sheet - in Second the combat stats are named a bit different.)

If a Group is beneficial to the task at hand you get a Positive Double Roll: roll 2 d20 and keep the better result (= 5e Advantage).
For Trained tasks (e.g., Pick Pockets) it helps if an applicable Group is written somewhere on the sheet. If "thieves guild" is written next to CHA because your character concept is con man rather than pickpocket you are still somewhat proficient in picking pockets and roll a single d20 under DEX. All other characters trying a Trained task get Negative Double Rolls (= 5e Disadvantage).

Spells ("miracles" in Whitehack parlance) are freestyle. Players write a few "descriptive or evocative words like Telekinesis, Banish undead, Pyrotechnics, Frog familiarus, Fist of the God, Song of Truth, or Patrok, Demon of Passage" which are used "through a per situation agreement between Referee and player, based on the wording and the character's vocation".
Spells are paid for with hit points, Microlite 20 style.
(But there is a variant in the GM chapter using the familiar OGL spells, with or without hp cost of casting.)

Auctions are a way to spice up conflicts. Players can roll a d6, keep the number a secret, and "bid" against the GM (or a fellow player) a number that works like AC in combat. Highest bidder can roll first, reveals his d6 roll, adds the roll to the relevant Attribute (or Save Number, or Attack Value), and makes a "blackjack" task roll (under Attribute + the d6 result, but over the bid number).
Obviously, if you bid more than what you rolled on the d6 your chance is lower than with a regular, unmodified task roll.

Players rules are from 19 pages (including character sheet), Referee rules are 21 pages (including monsters and magic items), and the last 13 pages are a brief setting and adventure. 7 pages of "dice tables" (lots and lots of numbers to randomly pick at with your pencil), faq ("troubleshooting"), glossary, index, and OGL conclude the book.

A typical character looks like that:

Saffron, Level 1 Wise Black Hats Alchemist
Str 6, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 13 (Alchemist, Black Hats), Cha 13
Save 6, hp 6, AC 1, Move 30, Attack Value 10
Common; Miracles: Weird Bombs, Crow Familiarus, Mysterious Elixir!
Quarterstaff, Cloth Armor, Black Hat, Tame Crow, Book of Recipes, 1 gp

When 5e was in playtest (as D&D Next) I thought that Whitehack would already be a Microlite Next (Double Rolls = Advantage, Groups = Backgrounds) but that didn't prove to be true.


The biggest differences from First Edition:

To-hit and Armor Class worked either like in d20 (BAB) or in BECMI (attack matrix), so Whitehack was compatible with the vast library of either system. Not any more, now you need to adjust the stat blocks. (That's nothing serious, it's as much work as adapting descending to ascending AC, or vice versa, but it is a loss of one sales argument.)

Auctions work differently. The d6 roll is new, serving as an enticement to enter auctions.

The setting is a little bit more detailed, the adventures have ... "maps". Not proper dungeon maps, but flowcharts and relationship maps. That's what I found jarring because they are hard to read.

Actual play experience:

I only played First Edition so far, and Auctions didn't come up at all. But that's because all games were one-shots. People were busy wrapping their head around Groups and Slots, and Auctions didn't make that much sense as they lowered the chance of success. Christian must have encountered the same since he changed it in Second Edition.

Depending on where the players came from Groups felt like FATE Aspects (story-gamey, with players trying to justify all kinds of things), or like Barbarians of Lemuria Careers (meta skills). I vastly prefer the latter.

Freestyle spells can be fun with players who are comfortable with them. If players are used to very strict pre-determined effects it can be like pulling teeth because they don't come up with creative uses.

I am undecided whether I like First or Second Edition more. I prefer the format of First (small stapled pamphlet) but the unified task roll mechanim is a clear win.
I like the booklet format better because Whitehack is an ideal convention game - characters can be made very quickly, and they are still very varied thanks to Groups. I don't like to carry a hardcover around at conventions.
But I have a copy of First Edition, so all is well.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838463I have to say, even though I feel like your post actually explained very little to me while using very big words, the language and implications of that language strongly suggest to me that this is not a game I would particularly care for.

Too bad—sorry to disappoint!

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;838488Try this explanation ...

About auctions: You can't calculate your chances in an auction that easily. You may well increase your chances compared to a regular roll by tricking your opponent to make the higher bid and roll first, as you win automatically if he fails. But why would you compare your chances in an auction to an unmodified regular roll? Usually, the alternative to an auction is an opposed roll of some kind, or a modified roll. When I run Whitehack, sometimes I suggest to the players to run something as an auction. At other times, I don't give them any choice.

I think you did a great job explaining my game! Thank you!

Quote from: Whitehack;838511Too bad—sorry to disappoint!

Pundit will generally review any game that's sent to him in physical format. I say you do it; Whitehack is a fucking gem of a game!

Also, I understand that the lack of a PDF is a conscious decision.

Intentionally making the game be as hard and as expensive to get as possible goes against the spirit of the OSR, in my mind.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;838847Pundit will generally review any game that's sent to him in physical format. I say you do it; Whitehack is a fucking gem of a game!

It's true, I review every game sent me.  If you think I might change my mind, it might be worth your while.  Of course, even if I hate it, one of my reviews can generate a lot of attention.

Quote from: Enlightened;838968Also, I understand that the lack of a PDF is a conscious decision.

Intentionally making the game be as hard and as expensive to get as possible goes against the spirit of the OSR, in my mind.

There is no intention to make this game "as hard to get as possible".
There is an intention to make this game as physically pleasing as possible. For this publisher this means cloth-bound hardcover with dustjacket. And that comes with a price.

(Personally, I can't stand cloth-bound books... but I can respect the artistic vision of the author. Plus, the notebook version has a regular, non-cloth, hardcover.)

But I am sad that the First Edition has vanished. (Last week I was able to get a pristine (second) copy from a German mail order shop that still had one. My use copy is a bit battered by now because, as my current go-to one-shot game, I carry it around a lot.)

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;839318There is an intention to make this game as physically pleasing as possible.

Wanting to make a pleasing looking product is cool.

Engineering it so that ONLY that single form exists is not cool.

PDF is more accessible, and for some customers that is more important than looks. And some customers only use PDFs.

Quote from: Enlightened;839321PDF is more accessible, and for some customers that is more important than looks. And some customers only use PDFs.

Bingo.

In some ways, this reminds me of an aspiring SF/F artist I knew years ago. He was very good. However, he refused to sell his artwork for magazine or book covers nor to make prints of it for people to buy. He thought these things did not capture the nuances of his paintings -- and figured that if people could buy printings for $10 they would be less likely to buy the originals at $500+.

Quote from: RandallS;839334Bingo.

In some ways, this reminds me of an aspiring SF/F artist I knew years ago. He was very good. However, he refused to sell his artwork for magazine or book covers nor to make prints of it for people to buy. He thought these things did not capture the nuances of his paintings -- and figured that if people could buy printings for $10 they would be less likely to buy the originals at $500+.

And how did things turn out for him?

Quote from: RPGPundit;839628And how did things turn out for him?

Not well.  Last I heard he sells a couple of paintings a year. He'd probably do better if he would also paint smaller works that could sell for $100-$200 at shows instead of just large paintings that have to sell for $1000+. However, IMHO, not selling prints is what really hurts him. No one knows of him unless they see his work at a show he's at. Prints would not only make him money, but would get his work out where people would see it which would let more people with the cash to spend on more expensive art see his stuff.

Quote from: RandallS;839654Not well.  Last I heard he sells a couple of paintings a year. He'd probably do better if he would also paint smaller works that could sell for $100-$200 at shows instead of just large paintings that have to sell for $1000+. However, IMHO, not selling prints is what really hurts him. No one knows of him unless they see his work at a show he's at. Prints would not only make him money, but would get his work out where people would see it which would let more people with the cash to spend on more expensive art see his stuff.

Yeah, that's what I figured would happen.

On the topic of non-pdf distribution, I just want to add a quick comment. It has been 6 weeks since I purchased 'Whitehack' from Lulu (the only place it is officially available) and received a 'dispatch' notification- and I am still waiting for it to arrive. My group, mostly comprised of young women, were drawn to the game by its appearance to be a more literary, open world setting and less a 'hack and slash' affair. We have long since however moved on using another, easily available system. If there had been a PDF I would have had it printed at my local bookbinders (who I am sure could print and saddlestitch it using pure vellum if I asked), and we would be 3 weeks deep into the campaign using Whitehack. We waited and waited.

I can only presume the insistence on using Lulu as the only distribution point is because the work is a vanity publication, difficult to obtain if you are not in the Northern US or Western Europe (I am currently based in Central Europe, which is hardly the ends of the earth).

I am extremely disappointed, obviously.

I am sure it's a fine game if you get to play it. You see, for all the efforts to resist the digitization of the hobby, it's extremely shortsighted to insist upon an analog format and then limit that distribution, or worse, sell it through a shop that doesn't deliver.

There are modern indie RPG devs that don't sell a PDF version?

We wouldn't be playing most the systems we do if there wasn't easily available PDF versions and I wouldn't be shilling for those games in threads of I wasn't playing/enjoying them.

I think the problem here is one of the big C word: Control.

Designers want their product to be received a certain way: in this case, there is a massive emphasis on it 'feeling right' visually- which is by no means a bad thing, and honestly I wish more game designers would spend less time fiddling with their often redundant dice mechanics and badly written splat books, and more time thinking about accessibility, readability and atmosphere. That said, control always means the imposition of limits. Normally a game has limits imposed at a conceptual or mechanical level, and the rules help create the atmosphere and momentum at a table (or wherever). Here, unfortunately, the insistence upon format (analog, traditional book form only, made only in one specific way) limits accessibility through distribution (only using Lulu, a dreadful publishing company with a terrible track record in delivery), and in my case, my group isn't going to wait around for those aesthetic needs to be met at the cost of actual gameplay. The control shifted the emphasis from game to 'object'.

I am not in the business of collecting objects. I know a lot of gamers have fetish level obsessions over their bookshelves. That's fine. I have always been more of a homebrew 'notebook over morning coffee' GM, and screw the splat.

I don't even know if I am pissed about the delays in getting the game, as much as just jaded. I feel like I was railroaded/controlled into buying from a single point of distribution and it affected my group's enthusiasm and my own story momentum.

But whatever: big world, small gripes, and my little spitball of vented frustration won't make it a better place.

Whitehack is very handy as a kitchen sink spur of the moment game. You can mix RuneQuest, Zweihander, D&D plus anything else with just those first three classes. Deft Dwarf Smuggler, Strong Elf Barbarian, Wise Human Storm-mage? Not a problem.

In addition the focus on interaction and not necessarily combat makes for interesting gaming sessions in which a weapon might not be drawn, yet a lot of intrigue transpires.

The only thing I changed was the magic system, making it a d6 (2,3 or 4 depending on circumstances/power of magic being used) and using alternate spells, but that is part of the beauty of the system, which I've also run with the Woodland Warriors setting.

Small book that in a way has the power of ten thick tomes built into it.

Quote from: bat;1035567Whitehack is very handy as a kitchen sink spur of the moment game. You can mix RuneQuest, Zweihander, D&D plus anything else with just those first three classes. Deft Dwarf Smuggler, Strong Elf Barbarian, Wise Human Storm-mage? Not a problem.

In addition the focus on interaction and not necessarily combat makes for interesting gaming sessions in which a weapon might not be drawn, yet a lot of intrigue transpires.

The only thing I changed was the magic system, making it a d6 (2,3 or 4 depending on circumstances/power of magic being used) and using alternate spells, but that is part of the beauty of the system, which I've also run with the Woodland Warriors setting.

Small book that in a way has the power of ten thick tomes built into it.

That is all fine and dandy if you CAN ACTUALLY GET HOLD OF A COPY.

My issue is with point of sale, and that I am disappointed because a product I bought in good faith isn't in my hands many weeks after I ordered it.

I am disappointed because I have read many eulogies and testaments to its flexibility and mechanics.

All you have done here is piss me off more by reminding me that the game is maybe really good, but the book I bought (followng the recommendation to use coupons to reduce the price from the author himself) never arrived in a reasonable time frame for my group to play, and apparently I am now supposed to wait for a window for that as well.

I am sorry to make you mad. But your issue is with Lulu, not the game or its creator, correct?

Quote from: bat;1035644I am sorry to make you mad. But your issue is with Lulu, not the game or its creator, correct?

The author is responsible for his choice in how to distribute the work. By distributing it only through lulu and only giving the choice of print. He  foregoing sales to interested customers given the other options available.

Quote from: estar;1035650The author is responsible for his choice in how to distribute the work. By distributing it only through lulu and only giving the choice of print. He  foregoing sales to interested customers given the other options available.

I understand that, the author has the freedom to distribute how they wish too, there is nothing set in stone about offering .pdfs. I am just saying that this is a shipping issue with Lulu, isn't it? I do not blame the author for distributing how they want, however, in this case, offering a .pdf would be a nice gesture.

Quote from: fuseboy;837100This is a really useful way to look at them.

Any other standout examples in category #3, bringing something new to the table?

Sine Nomine games.

For what it's worth, I've never has any problems getting items I've bought from Lulu in a timely manner. (Including copies of Whitehack.)

While it is true the author of Whitehack has chosen Lulu as his sole point of purchase, thatoint of purchase is a reputable print on demand company that usually delivers the goods without a hitch. It isn't like handed of the job of printing and shipping to some kid down the street from his house and said, "Hey folks. If you want this game. Send your money to Tommy."

I am really sorry about the delay in getting the game. That sucks. Has Lulu said what the problem is?

Pfff getting the pdf is as easy as asking Google for it.

No artwork what so ever in the 2nd edition.

I can almost see why the author didn't sell the pdf, with the PDF and a printer, you can get "the experience" of the book.

Quote from: bat;1035661I understand that, the author has the freedom to distribute how they wish too, there is nothing set in stone about offering .pdfs. I am just saying that this is a shipping issue with Lulu, isn't it? I do not blame the author for distributing how they want, however, in this case, offering a .pdf would be a nice gesture.

Sure but there are consequences to choices. In this case it annoyed a customer in a country that Lulu doesn't serve well. If foreign sales was a concern of an author than they would do what they could to make it as easy as possible. The limit being what is offered by the services they use.

One option that is not often considered for oddball sale is to open a Esty store. They allow authors to sell physical books (https://www.etsy.com/search?q=books) there. This way you can keep a small stock on hand to handle the occasional foreign order charging what needed to cover the shipping.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1035670Pfff getting the pdf is as easy as asking Google for it.

That may be so however that is copyright piracy and something we don't condone here.

Quote from: estar;1035683That may be so however that is copyright piracy and something we don't condone here.

Also, to appeal to taste, the Whitehack books are really nice as BOOKS.

One thing I have noticed about Scandanavian RPG designers and writers is they care about books as books. This might not matter to everyone. But I really enjoy it.

Quote from: estar;1035683That may be so however that is copyright piracy and something we don't condone here.

Not condone, but the lurking author should be aware that his lack of a PDF version to buy is both annoying to customers and does not prevent access to a PDF version.

I've spent a few hundred on RPG PDFs recently. People do buy them.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1035688Not condone, but the lurking author should be aware that his lack of a PDF version to buy is both annoying to customers and does not prevent access to a PDF version.

I've spent a few hundred on RPG PDFs recently. People do buy them.

Exactly. Let's not all be a bunch of Pollyannas here. While I'm sure nobody condones it, there is a pdf out there. I have never scanned and/or pirated anyone's work because I would not want the same in return, but I am sure we are all aware it is out there.

Hey. Thanks to all for replying.

You are of course correct, there is a PDF. I am aware of its existence. And now I have read it all the way through (I figured I paid for something, right?), I am aware of what Whitehack really is.

You have to understand that Poland is constantly marginalised in terms of cultural exchange. It might seem utterly insignificant to many, but it took a lot of effort getting a group together here, especially one that speaks enough English (my own Polish is gobshite awful). It is even harder when you consider that that group is mostly female, doesn't want to play D&D (it has yet to be ever published here as far as I can tell), and even though I believe 'Lamentations' to be a greater game than many, there is no way I am exposing my players as young as 12 to images of vaginas being torn open giving birth to dragons, even if I buy the non-artwork version (because that culture is still out there online). Whitehack presents itself like an old Penguin Classic. It screams whimsy, and literary, and intelligent storytelling.

Truth is though, I now know it to be a murderhobo clone with some funky edges. It's the IKEA of OSR games: looks stylish, but you have to assemble it yourself, the instructions don't read entirely clearly and I am pretty sure the game will break if played with too hard.

I suspect it won't turn up anyway. You post something east without an airmail sticker, which is the 'free shipping' way for Lulu... well maybe it comes, maybe it doesn't. I was stupid to buy in to the 'beautiful object' cult that surrounds it. I was stupid not to just download the crappily scanned PDF in the first instance and 'ruin the mystery'. I thought the reviews were enough evidence of it being worth the $. I was stupid to try and save a few dollars with coupons. I was stupid to promise it to my players as the solution they wanted without knowing its nuances and flaws.

But worst of all for me, is that for years and years I have just stayed out of online discussion of RPGs. I like the people who play, mostly, but I hate the flaming and the hardnosed (mostly stateside) arguing over 'cultural politics' and mechanics. I was caught in a moment of anger on behalf of a disappointed child, and now I have gone and 'Sunday morning ranted' and these shitposts are now my first posts on the net (and to the wider community) in a very, very long time. Toxic bullshit, and it's not who I am. I am sorry for imposing my frustrations on others, and hijacking this thread as if it was all about me.

I came here to chat to other players and GMs, not burn happy villages. Hopefully I haven't poisoned the well for others: the Whitehack community seems passionate about the game, and I am not one who sets out to deliberately quell passions.

Peace to all.

Including Lulu.

Quote from: Bess;1035449On the topic of non-pdf distribution, I just want to add a quick comment. It has been 6 weeks since I purchased 'Whitehack' from Lulu (the only place it is officially available) and received a 'dispatch' notification- and I am still waiting for it to arrive. My group, mostly comprised of young women, were drawn to the game by its appearance to be a more literary, open world setting and less a 'hack and slash' affair. We have long since however moved on using another, easily available system. If there had been a PDF I would have had it printed at my local bookbinders (who I am sure could print and saddlestitch it using pure vellum if I asked), and we would be 3 weeks deep into the campaign using Whitehack. We waited and waited.

I can only presume the insistence on using Lulu as the only distribution point is because the work is a vanity publication, difficult to obtain if you are not in the Northern US or Western Europe (I am currently based in Central Europe, which is hardly the ends of the earth).

I am extremely disappointed, obviously.

I am sure it's a fine game if you get to play it. You see, for all the efforts to resist the digitization of the hobby, it's extremely shortsighted to insist upon an analog format and then limit that distribution, or worse, sell it through a shop that doesn't deliver.

Welcome to theRPGsite!  I can certainly sympathize with being out of the usual shipping routes, being down here.  An rpg product sent here from the US can take anywhere from a week to six months, though about two is usually the average.

Quote from: Bess;1035812Hey. Thanks to all for replying.

You are of course correct, there is a PDF. I am aware of its existence. And now I have read it all the way through (I figured I paid for something, right?), I am aware of what Whitehack really is.

You have to understand that Poland is constantly marginalised in terms of cultural exchange. It might seem utterly insignificant to many, but it took a lot of effort getting a group together here, especially one that speaks enough English (my own Polish is gobshite awful). It is even harder when you consider that that group is mostly female, doesn't want to play D&D (it has yet to be ever published here as far as I can tell), and even though I believe 'Lamentations' to be a greater game than many, there is no way I am exposing my players as young as 12 to images of vaginas being torn open giving birth to dragons, even if I buy the non-artwork version (because that culture is still out there online). Whitehack presents itself like an old Penguin Classic. It screams whimsy, and literary, and intelligent storytelling.

Why not get Lion & Dragon?!

It's got a lot of the really great new-OSR mechanical stuff, and I bet the medieval-authenticity would be appealing to Poles (if the Witcher series is anything to go by).

Quote from: Bess;1035812Hey. Thanks to all for replying.

You are of course correct, there is a PDF. I am aware of its existence. And now I have read it all the way through (I figured I paid for something, right?), I am aware of what Whitehack really is.

You have to understand that Poland is constantly marginalised in terms of cultural exchange. It might seem utterly insignificant to many, but it took a lot of effort getting a group together here, especially one that speaks enough English (my own Polish is gobshite awful). It is even harder when you consider that that group is mostly female, doesn't want to play D&D (it has yet to be ever published here as far as I can tell), and even though I believe 'Lamentations' to be a greater game than many, there is no way I am exposing my players as young as 12 to images of vaginas being torn open giving birth to dragons, even if I buy the non-artwork version (because that culture is still out there online). Whitehack presents itself like an old Penguin Classic. It screams whimsy, and literary, and intelligent storytelling.

Truth is though, I now know it to be a murderhobo clone with some funky edges. It's the IKEA of OSR games: looks stylish, but you have to assemble it yourself, the instructions don't read entirely clearly and I am pretty sure the game will break if played with too hard.

I suspect it won't turn up anyway. You post something east without an airmail sticker, which is the 'free shipping' way for Lulu... well maybe it comes, maybe it doesn't. I was stupid to buy in to the 'beautiful object' cult that surrounds it. I was stupid not to just download the crappily scanned PDF in the first instance and 'ruin the mystery'. I thought the reviews were enough evidence of it being worth the $. I was stupid to try and save a few dollars with coupons. I was stupid to promise it to my players as the solution they wanted without knowing its nuances and flaws.

But worst of all for me, is that for years and years I have just stayed out of online discussion of RPGs. I like the people who play, mostly, but I hate the flaming and the hardnosed (mostly stateside) arguing over 'cultural politics' and mechanics. I was caught in a moment of anger on behalf of a disappointed child, and now I have gone and 'Sunday morning ranted' and these shitposts are now my first posts on the net (and to the wider community) in a very, very long time. Toxic bullshit, and it's not who I am. I am sorry for imposing my frustrations on others, and hijacking this thread as if it was all about me.

I came here to chat to other players and GMs, not burn happy villages. Hopefully I haven't poisoned the well for others: the Whitehack community seems passionate about the game, and I am not one who sets out to deliberately quell passions.

Peace to all.

Including Lulu.

Why not look at something like Beyond the Wall?  That might be more along the lines of what you were looking for.  It's available as a print book and pdf on Drivethru.

I would second both Lion & Dragon and Beyond the Wall.

If you have particularly young players then Beyond the Wall is ideal.

Other choices are:

Basic Fantasy: very cheap (free as PDF) and really well supported.

Fantastic Heroes and Witchery: (very good value and Free version on PDF) the encyclopedia par excellence of OSR clones

Dragon Warriors: also cheep now (PWYW/free as PDF) not D&D but similar and very very accessible. It also has a more medieval feeling to it.

Good gaming Bess!

Hey Bess, have you look at Dungeon World? It's got simple, pick-and-play rules based on D&D but more loose and narrative. It's the game I play with my 10-years old son and daughter. :)

I have a copy of Whitehack. The magic rules seem to require a bunch of arbitrary decision making and "negotiation", which made me not want to run it.

Hey
Thanks all.
I am looking into Blackhack now and tinkering with some homebrew mods and a ritual magic system that causes chaotic disruption and destabilises reality. I will check out Lion & Dragon (maybe a good fit for this as I want to keep things ground in reality and gradually drifting out into weird because of consequence of character actions), and Beyond the Wall. Dungeon World might be a little too 'archetype fixed' game for my style, but I will investigate- I have flinched from PBTA stuff when I read about it online, but I think that is probably my misperception that it's not scaleable for campaign play. Thank you though, I appreciate all the suggestions. I am certain of one thing: to play against the (my) grain with my group, pushing them into more 'harsh environment / encounter with weird society' as the big bad, especially as they spend all the time carefully avoiding combat with a sly mix of nets, distraction tactics, 'sleep poisons' and various sneakery aboutery.

Although the whole frustrating situation with delivery boiled my blood, it has actually prompted me back to my own game based on Slavic myths and legends, which I will post about somewhere else in this forum at another time. Clouds/silver linings/etc.

Thanks again.

The first time I looked at Whitehack I thought it had been over-praised in reviews, and I wasn't impressed.  I've flipped through it since, and I'm starting to warm up to it somewhat.  I think I would not use it in place of D&D* for fantasy, but I might prefer it over a more faithful clone for things like sci fi, horror, psychics or others.  In particular, as much as I love the back-of-book GM resources Sine Nomine puts out, I've tried Stars Without Number a couple of times now, and cannot get into its D&D In Space vibe for characters, and I'd find I'd rather just play Traveller, warts and all.  But Whitehack changes enough I think I'd like it better than SWN.

No play test yet though, so this remains theoretical.  :/

*Well, house-ruled ACKS, but most of the clones are all D&D in the broad meaning anyway.

Quote from: Bess;1036220I am looking into Blackhack now and tinkering with some homebrew mods and a ritual magic system that causes chaotic disruption and destabilises reality. I will check out Lion & Dragon (maybe a good fit for this as I want to keep things ground in reality and gradually drifting out into weird because of consequence of character actions), and Beyond the Wall. Dungeon World might be a little too 'archetype fixed' game for my style, but I will investigate...

Have you tried Fate?











I'm just kidding.  Don't try Fate.  Beyond the Wall might be up your alley, but I suppose you'll figure that out yourself directly.

Quote from: bat;1035712Exactly. Let's not all be a bunch of Pollyannas here. While I'm sure nobody condones it, there is a pdf out there. I have never scanned and/or pirated anyone's work because I would not want the same in return, but I am sure we are all aware it is out there.

Those damn Uzbekistani's!

Quote from: Bess;1036220I think that is probably my misperception that it's not scaleable for campaign play.

That's not a misperception, most PbtA games do not scale well either in size or in length of time.

Quote from: Dave R;1036357Have you tried Fate?

I'm just kidding.  Don't try Fate.  Beyond the Wall might be up your alley, but I suppose you'll figure that out yourself directly.

Ah... FATE, the Froopyland of RPGs (yeh, that's a Rick & Morty burn). Playing it was a draining experience. I have the Accelerated, so maybe the core is better built, but I found it self-conscious in a 'I watch a lot of films and TV and I know my tropes' fashion. I know it evolves from Fudge, but it is too much the Fiasco school of after dinner party 'more white w(h)ine, darling?' play for my tastes. I am more interested in ergodic systems (like emergent VR enviroments, storyworlds in which player agency comes from immersion, not narrative control freakery- because they feel more contemporary). That said, I really like Wushu, so go figure.

I learned from FATE though: ported 'aspects' into GURPS as Bang! Skills, threw in some Roll for Shoes to cover bizzaro advancement and allowed re-rolls/gave other bonuses if you played ('compelled') your own disadvantages.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1036399That's not a misperception, most PbtA games do not scale well either in size or in length of time.

Thanks ;)

Quote from: Bess;1036220I will check out Lion & Dragon (maybe a good fit for this as I want to keep things ground in reality and gradually drifting out into weird because of consequence of character actions),

That should work fairly well. It's possible to have a very non-supernatural game for several levels.

There is a lot to like about Whitehack. I've got both editions, and even though 2e is much more streamlined--I like 1e better. Overall, I prefer The Black Hack--despite it's quirks--especially with all the add-ons available for it.

Quote from: vgunn;1037251There is a lot to like about Whitehack. I've got both editions, and even though 2e is much more streamlined--I like 1e better.

I was somewhat surprised to see Bess describe Whitehack as a murder-hobo fest. Yes, The Strong class focuses on combat, but the The Deft and The Wise can go off in countless directions that aren't focused on combat at all. (And note that both the ability of The Strong to acquire powers of those they defeat as well as the True Miracles rules (p. 31) that allow both the The Strong and The Deft to use slots for magic means even The Strong can be much more than fighting machines.)

The only other place in the rules that might focus the game on combat is the XP system which rewards XP for killing monsters, gaining treasure, and completing quests. (The game is built from the conceits of early D&D, after all.) But the proportion of overall XP for monsters killed is, as in early D&D play, proportionally small. And one could remove any one of these elements with ease and award XP in any manner that is appropriate to the setting or playstyle one desires.

Overall killing things is not the focus of the game as far as I can tell.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1037319I was somewhat surprised to see Bess describe Whitehack as a murder-hobo fest. Yes, The Strong class focuses on combat, but the The Deft and The Wise can go off in countless directions that aren't focused on combat at all. (And note that both the ability of The Strong to acquire powers of those they defeat as well as the True Miracles rules that allow both the The Strong and The Deft to use slot for magic means even The Strong can be much more than fighting machines.)

The only other place in the rules that might focus the game on combat is the XP system rewards XP for killing monsters, gaining treasure, and completing quests. (The game is built from the conceits of early D&D, after all.) But the proportion of overall XP for monsters killed is, as in early D&D play, proportionally small. And one could remove any one of these elements with ease.  

Overall killing things is not the focus of the game as far as I can tell.

Agreed.

The Black Hack is just awful.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037631The Black Hack is just awful.

I don't like the usage die nor the way armor works (one of favorite parts of WH 2e armor), but there are optional rules which change that. And it's not difficult, if you want, to houserule in a GM attack roll for monsters and other situations. It's fast and easy to convert old modules. Also I like some of the hacks. For me, it's very simple and fun to play. But then again, B/X is about as much crunch as I want in a game.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1037319Overall killing things is not the focus of the game as far as I can tell.

Yes. It's fair to say that my going postal over the postal was a redundant vent about indie games being hard to get in some parts of the world, and that my later comments about the game are just based on a cursory read of a badly scanned PDF in a hostile mindset. I haven't been able to play the game, but on reflection any system that uses open concept characters and adv/disadv rolls and granular auctions to resolve narrative questions is likely to be a richer experience than I have given it credit.

Quote from: Bess;1037701Yes. It's fair to say that my going postal over the postal was a redundant vent about indie games being hard to get in some parts of the world, and that my later comments about the game are just based on a cursory read of a badly scanned PDF in a hostile mindset. I haven't been able to play the game, but on reflection any system that uses open concept characters and adv/disadv rolls and granular auctions to resolve narrative questions is likely to be a richer experience than I have given it credit.

I was happy reading this post.

It is my hope that when the game (finally) arrives you will give it a shot and see how all the pieces fit together. From everything you have written so far I think it might be a great fit for you.