Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2021, 01:31:22 PMMaybe if you actually played more often, you wouldn't feel so constipated and cranky.

The Dungeon Delver may have strong opinions that I disagree with. But he plays and referee as much if not more than many of us, myself included. I can personally attest that he gave 5th edition a fair try a couple of years back as I refereed a game with him in it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2021, 01:31:22 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on August 18, 2021, 12:24:49 AM
"The OSR" is garbage, and always has been.

"The OSR" is a hangout for craven has-beens and never-will-be's whose first brush with RPGs of the old school was either a late 90s purchase of the Rules Cyclopedia, arguably one of the driest and dullest and least-fun role-playing game books ever published, or they're true game tourists who saw a bunch of ripe sucks willing to throw down some hard-earned greenbacks for something, anything, that promised them it could be just like 1982 in their unairconditioned garage or moldy basement, one more time.

The soi disant "Old School Gaming authorities" seeped out of nowhere in the early 2010s, sneering and preening about how they had somehow cracked the code of Appendix N, or only that by engaging in the most ridiculous, reductive stripping down of D&D to some kind of ur-role-playing game supplemented by their own awful forays into so-called "weird fantasy" (which seems to be some kind of race to the bottom of usability in terms of presentation and content). 

Of course, I couldn't lay all of this at the feet of the hacks and con-men without mentioning the orbiters who enabled this bullshit, and seemed to fill my PMs and emails with wonderful recommendations and queries as to whether or not I had played Carcosa or Maze of the Blue Medusa or Lamentations of the Flame Princess or whatever other precious precious scat that just might have a gold cufflink embedded in it so here's a spoon and get digging was shat out in blessedly limited print runs this past convention season.  No no, the blame for the creation of these astroturf-bound (hidebound is far too organic a term for this flim-flammery) "gAmInG lUmInArIeS" (alas that there isn't a font set that lets me more accurately heap my utter contempt and disgust on that very concept) must rest evenly across all of their narrow, pimply shoulders equally.

And so we come to it.  DAS OSR is so self-serving, so self-fellating that it's bent around into a donut shape. 

You wanna know where the real old-school is?  It's right here.  It's me, baby.  I was doing my thing and creating classic AD&D modules by hand, putting them out there, when the all-clown circus that has labeled itself the Federal Government Bureau of Classic D&D were all off doing charop wankery with d20 rule systems and curling their lips up at even the very notion of playing AD&D or OD&D.  I look at my buddies over at KnKA, then I look out at the body of navel-gazing lint pickers who've tried to decode classic RPGs and create some kind of ridiculous "authority" on classic gaming, and I tell the latter group: where the fuck did you people just blow in from?  Because we were already here.  I don't care if anyone "shows up late".  Nobody on this forum was hanging out in Lake Geneva in 1973/'74.  What I do care about is this crowd of dimwits who strolled in and acted like they were the papacy of classic D&D (and other games)

Dude, take your ouroboros of fellatio and shove it up your ass. While you are busy screaming "Get Off My Lawn" there are people enjoying Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials. Maybe if you actually played more often, you wouldn't feel so constipated and cranky.

Go Play!

Greetings!

"Ouroboros of fellatio", Jeff? *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

I don't really understand all of the venom and gnashing of teeth against the OSR. The *OSRIC* book was specifically designed to edit and present AD&D in a manner utilizing the OGL so as to facilitate the legal production and creation of new books and modules for AD&D.

That is a wonderful and exceptional accomplishment, and an achievement which embraces "Old School" gaming and allows AD&D products to be created, produced, and marketed commercially in the modern age--by anyone willing to do the work of such creation and authorship.

From that achievement, most of the other "clones" followed, embracing various D&D versions, editing, and presentation. Again, opening up different perspectives and styles to a new audience and a new market. Mazes & Minotaurs, Essentials, LOTFP, and on and on. Why is this such a bad thing? Before these developments, the old books were not being reproduced, nor were they being expanded or added to in a broad commercial way.

They were collecting dust in the hidden libraries of old men, waiting to die, where the old books and the old systems would be consigned to languish in obscurity in the ash-heap of history. The OSR brought the old systems, the old ways, into the public market place, where they can be embraced, discussed, expanded, and SEEN, again, by whole new groups of gamers. That is something that I think all gamers--especially of D&D--should be proud, grateful, and appreciative of.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This has become a really good discussion.  Bravo!!!

Gary Gygax himself, was playing OD&D and starting characters at 3rd Level.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 18, 2021, 02:24:28 PM
This has become a really good discussion.  Bravo!!!

Gary Gygax himself, was playing OD&D and starting characters at 3rd Level.

Those were his "front porch games" in the last years of his life. While he talked alot with us about D&D on DF, ENWORLD and the C&C forums, He mostly ran, promoted, and continued to work on his Lejendary Adventures Game (Troll Lord Games was pushing out plenty of the new revised LA books and adventures along with Castle Zagyg at the time of his death). 

But indeed, when he did run D&D, whether when he was at TSR, or late in life, he  certainly didn't play RAW.

Quote from: SHARK on August 18, 2021, 02:19:19 PM
I don't really understand all of the venom and gnashing of teeth against the OSR.

Anybody can make a clone
The root of the issue is that the "secret sauce" that Marshall (OSRIC), Finch, (OSRIC, S&W), and Gonnerman (Basic Fantasy) discovered that if you take the open content of the d20 SRD omit the newer mechanics, you were a hop and a skip from any of the classic editions from OD&D to AD&D 2e.

The process is straightforward enough that anybody who pay attention to the detail of what is and is not open content can replicate the steps and produce their own take. And thanks to the internet and digital technology this can be done in the time one has for a hobby.

And as turned it out hobbyists doing that have opinions. And those opinions often didn't align 100%. Different folks deals with those differences in different ways. Hence you get the debate, arguments and sometimes drama.


[quote author=SHARK link=topic=43882.msg1184090#msg1184090
That is a wonderful and exceptional accomplishment, and an achievement which embraces "Old School" gaming and allows AD&D products to be created, produced, and marketed commercially in the modern age--by anyone willing to do the work of such creation and authorship.[/quote] Sure as long as one realize that what is "Old School" and how much of AD&D has to remain to be considered AD&D are opinions and sometime points of debate.

Quote from: SHARK on August 18, 2021, 02:19:19 PM
They were collecting dust in the hidden libraries of old men, waiting to die, where the old books and the old systems would be consigned to languish in obscurity in the ash-heap of history. The OSR brought the old systems, the old ways, into the public market place, where they can be embraced, discussed, expanded, and SEEN, again, by whole new groups of gamers. That is something that I think all gamers--especially of D&D--should be proud, grateful, and appreciative of.

That is pretty much my sentiment as well with the added proviso that I encourage, heckle, and debate people to make things open content so it never becomes lost in hidden libraries, the freedom remove to realize the material in the form they think best.

Wrapping it up.
Other factors is that some folks never stopped playing in the 70s or 80s. The internet impacted these folks like any other niche hobby and they connected. These hobby community started to grow in the early 2000s at places like Dragonsfoot. So when first clones came out and generated new fans as well has brought older gamers back into the classic edition it generated friction. And it didn't that OSR became a shorthand to describe the classic edition hobby as a whole.

More than a few resent being lumped in under the OSR label for different reasons but mostly because the majority folks who embrace the label just recently adopted the classic edition and celebrate it as a renaissance revival of something long lost. Spiced with the fact folks both old and new have opinions on the contribution of Arneson, Gygax, and the rest of the original design crew.

Last a lot of the clones are not "clones" but rather adaptations that either are mashups or altered in different ways for different settings and subgenres. That also generated debates and opinions especially from those committed to playing the originals 'as is'.

My take is that folks should chill out. Technology and the presence of open content means that gatekeeping is impossible. The most serious threats that the classic D&D hobby and industry faces are the same one that imperial all small publisher and the hobby in general. The fact that D&D dominates 80%+ of sales so if it sneezes we all get colds. The fact there only one major digital distributor in the form of DriveThruRPG and so on.

If you have an idea for the classic editions either 'as is' or something different. You can do it. And should do it if you find that fun and interesting to do.

Quote from: estar on August 17, 2021, 02:02:53 PM
Still tilting at that messaging medium I see. God forbid folks should do what they want with the freedom they have.

All this over being called neener, neener, by Stuart Marshall.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856

The Post that Started it all
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/#msg282499

Rob's Note: It surprising how much neener-neener-neener was used on this site.

Another Rob's Note: You done good work, but this way of marketing your shit is bullshit. Normally arguments should be discussed on their own merits but in your case for whatever reason you continue to feel need to denigrate elements of the OSR in order to market your own material. And this been going on for over a decade and it is as lame today as was then. 

Quote from: estar on October 24, 2014, 04:13:36 PM
Getting close to the source of the issue.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281177Ok, I'm going to come out and say it. I love old-school, and old-school gaming, but basically, I think retro-clone games suck ass. OSRIC; Labyrinth Lord, etc., they're all pointlessly stupid.

If you want something classic, why the fuck would you go with this? The originals are all still out there ( you can get the RC pdf for $5), and there's NOTHING in any of these "clones" that make them more worthwhile than the original.

If, on the other hand, you want something with "old school" sentiment, but not actually old-school rules, then again why the fuck would these be any good to you? Why not just go for a game (like, say, "Forward... to Adventure!") that manages to capture the old-school feel without having to just be a cheapass ripoff of an actual old-school game, and presents new elements and a modern rules-design sensibility without being hassled with trying to balance that with trying to look and stay close enough to "AD&D 1e with Unearth Arcana rules but without Cavaliers" or some shit like that?!

Ok, there's my ranting for the day. Discuss.

The Pundits response are calm and reasonable including this one.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281902Again, I'm not saying they're evil or damaging to the hobby, I'm just saying that I personally don't like them.t

And then oh man there was this.

Quote from: My game's more popular than your game. 

Also, neener neener neener.

Later in the thread FtA! marketing gets discussed.

I think you have it backwards. Those factions of the OSR feel the need to denigrate me. 

This started on Twitter specifically because someone was looking for people to show up on a youtube interview about Old-school gaming, and the guy who wrote Secrets of Blackmoor was kind enough to publicly recommend me.  Cue Jeffro Johnson and Rick Stump and the "BroSR" idiots, coming along to attack me for not being a "true Old school gamer" (as well as, they claim, a massive leftist; you see, because I'm not Catholic and don't believe that Democracy and the principles of the American Revolution were a horrible mistake, like they do; these are literal paleocons who believe in restoring literal absolutist monarchy and moving our entire civilization back to the dark ages... sound like any terrorist organization starting with a "T" to you?).

The fact that the Clonemaniacs of the past were equally bigoted against any game that wasn't just a Clone game until they were outmaneuvered by the early 2nd wave (something that was almost inevitable, because when all you're allowed to do is remake literal copies of old editions, you eventually run out of old editions) is also something your selective editing is notably avoiding.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on August 18, 2021, 12:24:49 AM
Nobody on this forum was hanging out in Lake Geneva in 1973/'74.  What I do care about is this crowd of dimwits who strolled in and acted like they were the papacy of classic D&D (and other games)

I know for a fact that at least a couple of people on this forum literally were. Either there or in the twin cities.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 18, 2021, 08:38:57 AM
I did not know that Gary Gygax didn't play his own version of AD&D.  To think of it, all those books, all those rules, were all a bunch of B.S. just to make money.

There's nothing wrong with making money, but it wasn't JUST to make money.
As I point out in the video, one big part of the creation of AD&D rules was for TOURNAMENT PLAY at CONVENTIONS.

Another was to create some kind of 'official ruling' on all kinds of questions people pestered him with instead of house ruling for themselves.

But most of the rules in AD&D1e were not really rules HE used, and play at Gary's table never ever looked like AD&D1e Rules-as-written. They looked like 0e D&D heavily-modified.

Quote from: MattyHelms on August 18, 2021, 11:35:00 AM
All I know is that I came out of watching this video absolutely excited and freshly inspired to do my own crazy shit in an OSR framework.  Not that I needed anyone's permission, it's just nice to step back and celebrate the possibilities in taking the framework and running with it. Thanks for posting this video!

Thank you! Please do make your own OSR crazy stuff!

And if you can, please SHARE THE VIDEO!

Quote from: JeffB on August 18, 2021, 02:45:58 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 18, 2021, 02:24:28 PM
This has become a really good discussion.  Bravo!!!

Gary Gygax himself, was playing OD&D and starting characters at 3rd Level.

Those were his "front porch games" in the last years of his life. While he talked alot with us about D&D on DF, ENWORLD and the C&C forums, He mostly ran, promoted, and continued to work on his Lejendary Adventures Game (Troll Lord Games was pushing out plenty of the new revised LA books and adventures along with Castle Zagyg at the time of his death). 

But indeed, when he did run D&D, whether when he was at TSR, or late in life, he  certainly didn't play RAW.

I appreciate this insight.  Thank you.

https://twitter.com/Semiogogue/status/1426984754004570120 is the start of the Twitter thread in case people want to view it for themselves, and Pundit gets brought up at https://twitter.com/Semiogogue/status/1426984754004570120.

Quote from: SHARK on August 18, 2021, 02:19:19 PMFrom that achievement, most of the other "clones" followed, embracing various D&D versions, editing, and presentation. Again, opening up different perspectives and styles to a new audience and a new market. Mazes & Minotaurs, Essentials, LOTFP, and on and on. Why is this such a bad thing? Before these developments, the old books were not being reproduced, nor were they being expanded or added to in a broad commercial way.

The "bad thing" is the idea that these clones, and all the follow on games such as DCC, couldn't have existed without the OSR. When, in fact, these types of games were being made before the OSR was even a thing.

What I saw, from my experience defending old school gaming in the early 2000s on EnWorld, RPG.Net and the Necromancer forums, were a bunch of people coming in after the fact and restating what we were talking about as if they suddenly invented it. And then saying anything based on 3e wasn't pure enough to even be considered as having existed.

At this point, the OSR is just a marketing term attached to a purity test.

Quote(as well as, they claim, a massive leftist; you see, because I'm not Catholic and don't believe that Democracy and the principles of the American Revolution were a horrible mistake, like they do; these are literal paleocons who believe in restoring literal absolutist monarchy and moving our entire civilization back to the dark ages... sound like any terrorist organization starting with a "T" to you?).

Sounds like based guys. Where can I read them?

Quote from: Wrath of God on August 18, 2021, 07:06:24 PM

Quote(as well as, they claim, a massive leftist; you see, because I'm not Catholic and don't believe that Democracy and the principles of the American Revolution were a horrible mistake, like they do; these are literal paleocons who believe in restoring literal absolutist monarchy and moving our entire civilization back to the dark ages... sound like any terrorist organization starting with a "T" to you?).

Sounds like based guys. Where can I read them?

I guess he's talking about the dark enlightenment movement