I'm sure many of us used to play a certain RPG when we were younger and still learning how to RPG. And now that we are wiser, or our tastes have changed, or our expectations are so high now... What RPG do you now look at and go, "that game sucks"?
For me, it was Twilight 2000. The GDW house rules didn't stay with me.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;581208I'm sure many of us used to play a certain RPG when we were younger and still learning how to RPG. And now that we are wiser, or our tastes have changed, or our expectations are so high now... What RPG do you now look at and go, "that game sucks"?
For me, it was Twilight 2000. The GDW house rules didn't stay with me.
This is me with D&D...and Star Wars d6 (in fact, the entire d6 system).
And I loved Marvel FASERIP until SAGA came along and did everything I wanted from a supers game better (and still hasn't really been surpassed in my book).
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;581208I'm sure many of us used to play a certain RPG when we were younger and still learning how to RPG. And now that we are wiser, or our tastes have changed, or our expectations are so high now... What RPG do you now look at and go, "that game sucks"?
For me, it was Twilight 2000. The GDW house rules didn't stay with me.
For me its the opposite: I find I notice and appreciate little subtleties in rules and things more, than I didn't used to see. I can't really name anything that I hate more than I used to.
...Oh, and what do you not like about T2000?
Star Wars WEG. I loved it as a youngster, but on a recent return I found that its pretty bad and I lost all love for it.
AD&D. I still love AD&D and run it, especially 1e (and B/X), but as a game it continually surprises me how incoherent and poorly designed it is. I suspect other than introducing me to RPGing, the system has probably contributed nothing to what I enjoy about AD&D.
AD&D 2nd edition. I had great moments playing it, I still like some of the setting material, and would still play it with the right people of course, but reading through the rules books now just makes me roll my eyes.
Oh, man, and TMNT by Palladium. Tried to recapture lighting in the bottle with that one...didn't work so well.
Space Opera...we played the hell out of that game in the 80s. Looking at it again a few years ago, I can't imagine why. Same goes for Star Frontiers.
AD&D 1e/2e - I got real frustrated with the wonkiness in the 90s and going back to OD&D is the only reason I am involved with the OSR.
Rifts. This was once my favorite RPG, and believe it or not, I thought I'd never run a different game.
I still think it's an awesome premise, but between the clunky character generation, the horrible editing, the horrendous power creep, and the complete lack of regard for the in-setting consistency and consequences... suffice to say I've opened the book more than I care to remember in the last 15 years and never managed to look past the old warts and get a game going. Every time I think of tinkering with the rules (relatively easy) or setting (a bit trickier), I end up throwing my hands to the air and playing something else.
Admittedly, this is as much because I have tons of games I want to run, as it is because of the game's shortcomings; nevertheless, if I had a more organized book, with a more consistent and cleaned-up system, and maybe a bit more thought given to setting information (beyond new and better toys and monsters and spells and classes with every book), it might work wonders. I still yearn for a Rifts game, but with less gaming time than ever, I just can't make myself run it when games with simpler and more consistent systems, better thought out settings and text which is easier on the eyes are yearning for my attention.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;581208What RPG do you now look at and go, "that game sucks"?
Assuming we're talking Rules Suckage, gotta be Torg. The setting is genius on toast, with a side of extra genius and a coffee mug of pure brilliance, keep 'em coming...
The official campaign fell into the dark abyss somewhere around year 3, but in the beginning the setting was glorious. (Could use some tweaks, but mainly just really cool.) The rules, OTOH, were always wonky.
They didn't do what they were meant to, centered an abstract mathematical concept that, by itself, wasn't necessary and just didn't work. It also featured one chart that had to be featured every single roll, and about a dozen charts which had to be consulted on many rolls, which one depending on what you were doing.
It could use some streamlining, is what I'm saying.
OTOH, the Drama Deck was a shining, glorious mechanic and the concept of PE shines like a beacon in the dark night of shitty RPG mechanics, showing the way to the promised land, and PE lives on today in many forms, like Bennies...
Tunnels and Trolls.
It started me gaming, with 4th edition, way back.
But no matter how I tried to tweak it later, it gets so broken so fast. Far too much 'no way you can win a fight'.
I don't know. I've got more appreciation for D&D than I used to. I still think that the fracturing and division caused by the OGL will prove to be the best thing that ever happened to gaming. It's like the pavement has broken up and trees are coming up through the cracks. But I will say I had a lot of hope for 2e D&D when it came out and soon went back to GURPS and a lot of hope for 3e D&D and quickly went back to Rolemaster Standard System.
Tunnels and Trolls is not a good system but I love it. Broken and non-functional though it may be, it has most of the elements of a good system and 5e is probably the best writing ever seen in an rpg but the system itself is very broken and totally runs on GM fiat if it ever runs at all.
GURPS, okay I'm going to come out and say this. I loved GURPS first edition and felt that after second came out the supplements took a hard turn in complexity that didn't peter out until 4e came along. It was the cardboard covers and erratta that were at fault I suppose. But I haven't played 4e much even though I approve of many of the changes. I think the biggest problem is that SJG simply made it too big and complete in the core. Keeping setting specific material in setting specific supplements would make the thing more accessible and easier to run. You could just say, "Use anything in the Basic Set and Fantasy," and run with it. It's a real chore to make case by case assessments of every advantage and skill to let the players know what they can and can't use. Yes there's a sorter but my point is that it should be organized in the books so you don't need one.
As a general rule, most things I've played in the past I look back at now and think "how did I play that shit?".
That includes: Red Box D&D, RC D&D, AD&D2e, Star Wars D6, Shadowrun 2nd (?) edition, GURPS 3rd edition, oWoD (Storyteller is just crap), Feng Shui (which was the biggest let-down, because I remember it being fun, but on recent replay it fell flat).
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;581212And I loved Marvel FASERIP until SAGA came along and did everything I wanted from a supers game better (and still hasn't really been surpassed in my book).
Quite true, quite true. Marvel SAGA was the under appreciated gem of the dying days of TSR. Still amongst my favourite games, definitely the close to perfect superhero game.
D&D, Top Secret, and Twilight:2000. These were all a big deal to me in the day but I couldn't get into them today. I might even have to put Traveller in there but I'm pretty sure I could mix in some Striker and get something fun again. I can't play Spirit of the Century I suspect -- I like FATE but that version is too baroque for me now.
Exalted. I already had a rocky relationship with it from the start as I mostly liked things unpopular with other fans (mostly the grimdark nature of the setting and the, however limited, ability of Dragon Blooded to survive on their own) but the writers kept focusing on stuff I hated while being dicks to other fans like me on the forums (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?509657-Exalted-Hybrid-Body-rearrangement-what-do-the-changes-mean&p=12009904#post12009904) until I couldn't give a shit anymore.
YCMV my ass.
I used to be heavy into effects-based point buy games (Champions/Hero, M&M, Wild Talents), now I can't stand them.
It's not that I dislike Star Wars WEG, but I wouldn't run/play it again RAW; it needs streamlining. Ditto the Decipher and LUG Star Trek games.
I played a lot of D&D in my high school years, and even though I stopped playing it I kept a lot of the books for inspiration. Now, though, I don't even find it useful for that.
I've run a lot of Amber Diceless, but these days there just isn't enough system there to make a real game.
3.5, Rolemaster,...honestly, any and all games with a lot of "Paperwork", or character generation that takes longer than ten minutes.
Quote from: Spinachcat;581242Space Opera...we played the hell out of that game in the 80s. Looking at it again a few years ago, I can't imagine why. Same goes for Star Frontiers.
That reminded me of SPI's Universe.
All the palladium games. I still like the settings and stuff. But the system just seem so clunky now. And as someone else said Torg. Great setting, sucky system. Heck even the setting is now taking a slide. If I were to run it against. It would be with a different system, and more than a couple cosms dropped.
Amber Diceless.
None I can think of. There's games I haven't played in a while, but I still have a fond regard for them. There isn't a game that I played and liked that I wouldn't play again, or still do.
Over the Edge. WEG Star Wars.
I think for me it would have to be The Morrow Project. I could handle the various oddball systems that it had (and were somewhat typical of the time period) and the basic idea was and still is excellent. But the modules as each new one came out became more and more irritating to me, primarily in the fluf and such sections. The writers seemed to be thinking that the people recruited for the project were generally just a bunch of undertrained underexperienced idiots, even in the teams that should have been better. Plus the insistance for almost every module to be starting out with a brand new team just waking up. I mean how many times are you supposed to play the "oh look, it's a hundred and fifty years later and why isn't Prime Base talking to us" before it gets dull?
Roll high/roll low of TSR (A)D&D. Love the ideas, game and playing, but roll hight mechanics is preferable to me now.
* Not that difficult to adapt from 2e, Myth & Magic has the math already done so that is what I am using.
AD&D1E/2E, I loved them back in the day. Now though I find all the systems cantankerous and slow compared to others. (Of course I didn't move to 3E/4E for many reasons.) Althought BECMI D&D itself is simple enough to not bother me. I wish I still had my love for those games, I do. I just don't, after decades of use.
The early White Wolf games, I jumped on and enjoyed for a while, but now I can't go back to any of them. (Except Changeling.) Although I find the NWOD corebook pretty nicely done, I just don't care for the rest of the "settings."
I don't have many of these. I ended up going back for most games as I just don't like the newer stuff I've tried. The closest I can think of, and it doesn't really qualify as games of my childhood (I was already of drinking age by its release), would be D&D 3e.
Now that I actively avoid, including Pathfinder. I've said it before but I've never actually played a fun game of D&D 3e. Kind of tragic that that's the only memory I have of it.
I get that "can't go home again" feeling from early editions of AD&D. And pretty much any version of Traveller, even the new ones. It's not necessarily the old game design I don't like, nor is it that I consider the new ones better.
It's just that I get so fed up with all those damned "edition wars" that I lose interest in gaming with anyone from either side. It's almost managed to put me off Hero, as well, but not quite yet.
Quote from: daniel_ream;581303I've run a lot of Amber Diceless, but these days there just isn't enough system there to make a real game.
This is strange to me, because it would seem likely that over time one would keep personally developing a more solid framework to MAKE it more of a 'real game' over time.
Anyways, I hope LoO ends up feeling more like a "real game" from the start; its a bit more concrete about how to apply things.. complete with excellent handy reference sheets provided by Brett!
RPGPundit
I don't think I've ever played a game RAW, but I don't think I've ever played a game that made me go "ah, hellz no! I'm never playing this shit AGAIN!"
Most of my poor experiences have been with specific people, not the game in question.
Seeing how I rank "system" as maybe the 4th or 5th most important part of a game it would be very hard for a system alone to tank a game for me.
Quote from: RPGPundit;581803This is strange to me, because it would seem likely that over time one would keep personally developing a more solid framework to MAKE it more of a 'real game' over time.
Inter-PC conflict was almost nonexistent, but every time it happened the game ground to a screeching halt because there was no way given in the rules to adjudicate it.
I don't actually hate Hero System- especially when I still find it superior to everything else- but I'm getting disenchanted with it.
JG
RIFTS and Palladium Fantasy the former is too over the top for my current tastes and both have horrible rules that can literally stop any attempt at an actual game unless you have serious knowledge of the systems and chops as a GM. Which makes me a very sad kitten because RIFTS premise is awesome sauce and Palladium Fantasy is what Dnd wishes it could be and fails worse with every edition that's put out. Maybe 5e will make a run at it as long as it keeps "campaign traits"in the final iteration.
Quote from: daniel_ream;581821Inter-PC conflict was almost nonexistent, but every time it happened the game ground to a screeching halt because there was no way given in the rules to adjudicate it.
Well, I think Lords of Olympus does handle this sort of thing more explicitly; but I do think a lot of it comes down to the GM developing his judgment, and over time one would think that the GM would start developing a "common law" of precedent for that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Spinachcat;581242Space Opera...we played the hell out of that game in the 80s. Looking at it again a few years ago, I can't imagine why.
Same goes for Aftermath! in my case. "Groin" hit locations seemed a lot funnier back then. Plus a lot of way cooler guns have come out since.
It was never good, but it was what we had and what everyone else in the group insisted we play. Palladium as represented by Robotech, TMNT, BTS, Rifts.
Probably Mutants and Masterminds. I used to play 1e and 2e but never got comfortable enough with it to turn characters out near instantly as I did with DC heroes and Marvel Faserip.
Love the books, the layout, the art, game system plays fine. Character creation however is a chore I would rather put aside in favour of stabbing my eyeballs with forks.
Rolemaster felt like that when I was playing it for the first time around. I can't see any scenario in which I grind through that again. And yet I love MERP *shrug*
I got into roleplaying as an adult. So even though a good few years have gone by, my overall tastes in games has not dramatically changed.
There are a few games I used to run which I am not really considering running again - no need to name names - because I've found other system that do the same sort of job a little better. But that does not mean the other game sucked.
There are also a few games I've run, enjoyed and still respect but I kind of feel like I am done with them. It's like I've seen what the game can do, have nothing left to prove and going back would be just seem like more of the same. Yeah, I know that doesn't make sense; it's just the way it is.
D&D, all versions.
up to 2E - inconsistent/incomplete rules, levels are nonsensical, alignment is nonsensical, etc.
after 2E - they're video games
Basically, I like systems/settings that are simulationist and/or model plausible fantasy. I need the system to be simple and make sense. I need settings to be cohesive.
Quote from: TheHistorian;582768D&D, all versions.
up to 2E - inconsistent/incomplete rules, levels are nonsensical, alignment is nonsensical, etc.
after 2E - they're video games
Does that make 2e "just right"? Is it the porridge that Goldilocks chose?
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;581221Oh, man, and TMNT by Palladium. Tried to recapture lighting in the bottle with that one...didn't work so well.
I feel that way about pretty much all of Palladium's RPGs. I played TMNT, RIFTS, Heroes Unlimited, and Palladium Fantasy Back In The Day, but there's just no going back to those anymore.
I like "recapture lightning in the bottle"... I usually say "you can never go home again".
Quote from: Doctor Jest;582770I feel that way about pretty much all of Palladium's RPGs. I played TMNT, RIFTS, Heroes Unlimited, and Palladium Fantasy Back In The Day, but there's just no going back to those anymore.
I like "recapture lightning in the bottle"... I usually say "you can never go home again".
I hadn't played RIFTS in 15 years when I ran it again, and it was great, better than before even.
RPGPundit
Exalted. Feng Shui.
*sigh*
Neither of them fulfilled the premises promised, and neither of them stood up to proper campaign play. In both cases, I ran multi-year campaigns that ended up breaking the systems and the settings. (Did it with oMage, but that's not hard.)
I never actually got to run Exalted, but everything after about halfway through the first edition's run jumoped not only the shark, but the entire galaxy of shark. And then the buckets of dice...
My choice however would be Call of Cthulhu. The great mythos of twenties pulp racist HP Lovecraft has now become a great gaming in joke. He's the rolling stones of genre culture. Unfortuntely the game itself hasn't evolved and pretty much every cthulhu scenario is the same old same old.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582935My choice however would be Call of Cthulhu. The great mythos of twenties pulp racist HP Lovecraft has now become a great gaming in joke. He's the rolling stones of genre culture. Unfortuntely the game itself hasn't evolved and pretty much every cthulhu scenario is the same old same old.
I dunno, GW, I feel CoC is very successful at what it sets out to do. It's one of the most consistently praised RPGs across the breadth of the hobby. The suggestion that 7e would be fiddling around with some old standbys was met with outrage, and not just here.
What would like to see in a new edition of CoC, that isn't covered by the other half a dozen or so Lovecraftian horror RPGs (Nemesis, Trail of Cthulhu, Realms of Cthulhu, Shadows of Cthulhu, etc.) out there?
Quote from: TristramEvans;582769Does that make 2e "just right"? Is it the porridge that Goldilocks chose?
Definitely not. That should have been "up through 2e".
None of the games I used to play suck. The reason I don't play them any more is that my tastes have changed. The games are still the same as they always were.
-clash
Quote from: RPGPundit;582787I hadn't played RIFTS in 15 years when I ran it again, and it was great, better than before even.
I just did a cursory check and confirmed that I am, obviously, not you.
Quote from: flyingmice;583051None of the games I used to play suck. The reason I don't play them any more is that my tastes have changed. The games are still the same as they always were.
-clash
Well, RIFTS *does* objectively suck, even though lots of us have had fun with it. ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;583146Well, RIFTS *does* objectively suck, even though lots of us have had fun with it. ;)
Rifts represents one of the great mysteries of gaming. The system can be just painful and the books utterly wonky, but hot damn on swizzle stick Rifts consistently is incredible fun at my game table.
I believe I still can find something to enjoy in all the games I was interested in over the last 30 years.
I'm guessing, of course. It's not like I've reread all of them in the last decade.
Quote from: Spinachcat;583153Rifts represents one of the great mysteries of gaming. The system can be just painful and the books utterly wonky, but hot damn on swizzle stick Rifts consistently is incredible fun at my game table.
I just don't have the energy to throttle it to shake the fun out of it anymore.
I wish I did. I had some great games. I also ran it almost exclusively for a full decade, and had a bad run-in with Palladium Books online, so I think it's just done for me now.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;583089I just did a cursory check and confirmed that I am, obviously, not you.
And that, sir, is the great tragedy of your existence.
RPGPundit
"I'm RPGPundit and you're not."
Quote from: RPGPundit;583534And that, sir, is the great tragedy of your existence.
RPGPundit
If only it were, if only it were.