How well does Nightlife run?

Quote from: Batjon on July 12, 2022, 09:44:52 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 12, 2022, 09:02:38 PM

Quote from: Batjon on July 12, 2022, 08:04:44 PM
Does V20 eject the origin of vampires and all the lore that is associated with it?

It does not. It still has all the lore about Cain, the city of Nod, the thirteen founders who survived the Flood, and the Final Nights.

That is a lot of the lore/metaplot I am trying to avoid.

Thats not metaplot though. That is history. And there is jack all nothing stopping you from tossing out any of it because jack all none of it impacts anything really. Thats true across editions and and changes to the setting large and small. Even the founders is nothing and WW tossed that out the window by 2e anyhoo.

Worse is that within the WOD lore itself any history is meaningless and all true all at the same time because history itself is mercurial in nature.

Quote from: Omega on July 13, 2022, 09:19:56 PM

Quote from: Batjon on July 12, 2022, 09:44:52 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 12, 2022, 09:02:38 PM

Quote from: Batjon on July 12, 2022, 08:04:44 PM
Does V20 eject the origin of vampires and all the lore that is associated with it?

It does not. It still has all the lore about Cain, the city of Nod, the thirteen founders who survived the Flood, and the Final Nights.

That is a lot of the lore/metaplot I am trying to avoid.

Thats not metaplot though. That is history. And there is jack all nothing stopping you from tossing out any of it because jack all none of it impacts anything really. Thats true across editions and and changes to the setting large and small. Even the founders is nothing and WW tossed that out the window by 2e anyhoo.

Worse is that within the WOD lore itself any history is meaningless and all true all at the same time because history itself is mercurial in nature.

I was in a V20 campaign once, but we simply played it like any other dark urban fantasy game. Nobody really cared about the lore.

Quote from: Batjon on July 13, 2022, 08:59:25 PM
How well does Nightlife run?

I've never gotten a group together, but I assume it runs about as well as other d100 games like BRP. Plus the extra book keeping from measuring humanity fluctuations and their effects on the characters' vulnerabilities and appearances.

There's also some files from the defunct yahoo group that you might be interested in. I have those saved on a dropbox that I can share with you. This includes digital dead (90s internet stuff), mocks (evil clowns), the unfinished street velocity revision, and an adventure "roach motel."

Obviously you can fiat away anything in any rpg, but I prefer to determine a particular game's utility to [current interest] based on the rules as written. When I start fiating away about a quarter or more of the rules/setting, that's when I realize that it's probably not suited for my goals.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 13, 2022, 05:08:52 PM
The ST system, in any iteration, uses dice pools and in convoluted fashion. There are several "difficulty sliders": The amount of dice in a pool, the pips/face you need to roll for a die to produce a pass, the number of passes that need to be rolled to determine whether an action is successful, and whether dice "explode" or not upon rolling a 10

What you call convoluted, I call a relatively simple system for generating complex outcomes in a minimum number of rolls.

The problem with linear distributions (i.e. 1dX+Y vs. TN Z) is that it can really only do pass/fail well, not magnitude. This is why D&D has always used a separate damage roll for magnitude and why the d20's skill system has always been wonky as it tried to turn extremes of that linear distribution into magnitude and had to add "take 10" mechanics to account for obscene failure rates that would result if you used the checks outside of combat situations.

Success-based dice pools give you an actual bell curve distribution which largely eliminates the need for separate take-10/mundane use mechanics. The variable target number allows you to increase or decrease odds of success without actually bumping the absolute magnitude of success (someone with 2 dice is never going to pull off more than a marginal success regardless of difficulty)... which is NOT something a flat distribution where "succeed by X" determines magnitude (because reducing the TN also reduces the number you need for the increased magnitude).

Similarly, number of successes (and failure/botch results) allow for more ways for a GM to interpret results than just pass/fail. Did you barely pick the lock, perhaps leaving telltale marks of your effort in the process? Do it compently? Do it so masterfully that someone might think the door had always been unlocked or merely slightly stuck? Did you instead fail so badly you jammed the lock?

Not only does counting successes allow those results, the dice pool caps the outcome... 2 dice will never produce the three successes needed for complete success. Four dice will never produce the 5 successes needed for a critical success. Thus a difference of just a few dots in a skill can denote much greater expertise than small gradations on a d10 roll where the only way to prevent the ametuer from a critical success is to push the TN and the bonuses for the expert so high that failure becomes the ametuer's only outcome.

Is the system used by old White Wolf clunky in places? Sure. But the benefits of the resolution system are many and the system's broad popularity (at one point it was about as close to a D&D killer as you're going to find) means there are plenty of house rules out there to streamline anything you do find clunky (The Dark Age Companion even does this themselves with optional rules for streamlining combat).

It's useful enough that I chose to use a variant as the core of my own urban fantasy game engine (the key fix for mine was how to handle difficulties below 4 or above .

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 14, 2022, 10:20:10 AM
The problem with linear distributions (i.e. 1dX+Y vs. TN Z) is that it can really only do pass/fail well, not magnitude. This is why D&D has always used a separate damage roll for magnitude and why the d20's skill system has always been wonky as it tried to turn extremes of that linear distribution into magnitude and had to add "take 10" mechanics to account for obscene failure rates that would result if you used the checks outside of combat situations.

A combination of True20 and 3d6 rolling addresses those issues with d20's damage and skill mechanics. Percentile systems, like that used by Nightlife, easily handle margins of success and comparing opposed rolls without all the difficulty sliders obscuring the actual percentages. I don't think any rpg system is perfect, but I definitely don't think complexity in the task resolution that requires system mastery to understand is automatically good.

QuoteNot only does counting successes allow those results, the dice pool caps the outcome... 2 dice will never produce the three successes needed for complete success. Four dice will never produce the 5 successes needed for a critical success. Thus a difference of just a few dots in a skill can denote much greater expertise than small gradations on a d10 roll where the only way to prevent the ametuer from a critical success is to push the TN and the bonuses for the expert so high that failure becomes the ametuer's only outcome.

This depends on what iteration you're using. CoD has exploding dice which makes it possible for four dice to roll an exceptional success and you can also spend willpower to boost the roll.

QuoteIs the system used by old White Wolf clunky in places? Sure. But the benefits of the resolution system are many and the system's broad popularity (at one point it was about as close to a D&D killer as you're going to find) means there are plenty of house rules out there to streamline anything you do find clunky (The Dark Age Companion even does this themselves with optional rules for streamlining combat).

I think that's a terrible argument in favor. "Sure it's clunky, but you can use these obscure house rules to fix it!" That said, I admit I think CoD1e has the least clunky iteration of the task resolution because it reduces the difficulty sliders to just applying modifiers to the dice pool and you only need to roll one 8+ to achieve a successful outcome (aside from exceptional successes, contested rolls, extended rolls, and damage rolls, where the exact number of 8s is relevant). It has its issues like not being able to conceal modifiers from players, but no system is perfect and it's something I can let slide for the most part.

In any case, this isn't the place for evangelism and arguing whose game is better. What we should be doing is explaining what systems would be most suitable for what Batjon is specifically trying to do, and not let our favoritism get in the way of that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 13, 2022, 05:08:52 PM
So if I was trying to write an ST retroclone, then the first thing I would do is switch to Unisystem dice rolling because I can't be bothered to deal with all that.

Once you start talking Unisystem, you may as well switch to GURPS and be done with it.

It even has an adaptation for VtM, MtA, and I -think- WtA already done.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 14, 2022, 03:19:39 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 13, 2022, 05:08:52 PM
So if I was trying to write an ST retroclone, then the first thing I would do is switch to Unisystem dice rolling because I can't be bothered to deal with all that.

Once you start talking Unisystem, you may as well switch to GURPS and be done with it.

It even has an adaptation for VtM, MtA, and I -think- WtA already done.

Probably. Nothing better at being a universal system than a system designed to be universal. I would use the rules from Blood Types, Shapeshifters, and Thaumatology instead.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 14, 2022, 10:20:10 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 13, 2022, 05:08:52 PM
The ST system, in any iteration, uses dice pools and in convoluted fashion. There are several "difficulty sliders": The amount of dice in a pool, the pips/face you need to roll for a die to produce a pass, the number of passes that need to be rolled to determine whether an action is successful, and whether dice "explode" or not upon rolling a 10

What you call convoluted, I call a relatively simple system for generating complex outcomes in a minimum number of rolls.

The problem with linear distributions (i.e. 1dX+Y vs. TN Z) is that it can really only do pass/fail well, not magnitude. This is why D&D has always used a separate damage roll for magnitude and why the d20's skill system has always been wonky as it tried to turn extremes of that linear distribution into magnitude and had to add "take 10" mechanics to account for obscene failure rates that would result if you used the checks outside of combat situations.

Success-based dice pools give you an actual bell curve distribution which largely eliminates the need for separate take-10/mundane use mechanics. The variable target number allows you to increase or decrease odds of success without actually bumping the absolute magnitude of success (someone with 2 dice is never going to pull off more than a marginal success regardless of difficulty)... which is NOT something a flat distribution where "succeed by X" determines magnitude (because reducing the TN also reduces the number you need for the increased magnitude).

Similarly, number of successes (and failure/botch results) allow for more ways for a GM to interpret results than just pass/fail. Did you barely pick the lock, perhaps leaving telltale marks of your effort in the process? Do it compently? Do it so masterfully that someone might think the door had always been unlocked or merely slightly stuck? Did you instead fail so badly you jammed the lock?

Not only does counting successes allow those results, the dice pool caps the outcome... 2 dice will never produce the three successes needed for complete success. Four dice will never produce the 5 successes needed for a critical success. Thus a difference of just a few dots in a skill can denote much greater expertise than small gradations on a d10 roll where the only way to prevent the ametuer from a critical success is to push the TN and the bonuses for the expert so high that failure becomes the ametuer's only outcome.

Is the system used by old White Wolf clunky in places? Sure. But the benefits of the resolution system are many and the system's broad popularity (at one point it was about as close to a D&D killer as you're going to find) means there are plenty of house rules out there to streamline anything you do find clunky (The Dark Age Companion even does this themselves with optional rules for streamlining combat).

It's useful enough that I chose to use a variant as the core of my own urban fantasy game engine (the key fix for mine was how to handle difficulties below 4 or above .

What is your game?

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 14, 2022, 03:19:39 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 13, 2022, 05:08:52 PM
So if I was trying to write an ST retroclone, then the first thing I would do is switch to Unisystem dice rolling because I can't be bothered to deal with all that.

Once you start talking Unisystem, you may as well switch to GURPS and be done with it.

It even has an adaptation for VtM, MtA, and I -think- WtA already done.

Except for the fact that I loathe GURPS as a gaming engine.

I generally agree with BoxCrayonTales' outlook on the utility of stripping the system from the lore/setting for VtM and then you also have to contend with the various clans and bloodlines not being authentic to what you want to model in your game.

I think you have possibly convinced me to finally read Feed.  It has been on my shelf for a long time.

Quote from: Batjon on July 14, 2022, 09:00:39 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 14, 2022, 03:19:39 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 13, 2022, 05:08:52 PM
So if I was trying to write an ST retroclone, then the first thing I would do is switch to Unisystem dice rolling because I can't be bothered to deal with all that.

Once you start talking Unisystem, you may as well switch to GURPS and be done with it.

It even has an adaptation for VtM, MtA, and I -think- WtA already done.

Except for the fact that I loathe GURPS as a gaming engine.

Yeah. Cinematic Unisystem is vastly more streamlined than GURPS. If you're not looking for a bunch of mechanics around blood or humanity or similar, then I think Cinematic Unisystem could easily handle doing a Forever Knight campaign (for example).

I've played GURPS before, but I enjoyed Buffy/Angel much more.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 14, 2022, 08:38:11 AM

Quote from: Batjon on July 13, 2022, 08:59:25 PM
How well does Nightlife run?

I've never gotten a group together, but I assume it runs about as well as other d100 games like BRP. Plus the extra book keeping from measuring humanity fluctuations and their effects on the characters' vulnerabilities and appearances.

There's also some files from the defunct yahoo group that you might be interested in. I have those saved on a dropbox that I can share with you. This includes digital dead (90s internet stuff), mocks (evil clowns), the unfinished street velocity revision, and an adventure "roach motel."

Obviously you can fiat away anything in any rpg, but I prefer to determine a particular game's utility to [current interest] based on the rules as written. When I start fiating away about a quarter or more of the rules/setting, that's when I realize that it's probably not suited for my goals.

I'd love to get with you and get copies of your work for Feed, if you are open to sharing, please.  Did you used to spend time in the Maven of the Eventide's Discord server discussing Feed as well?

Quote from: Batjon on July 15, 2022, 12:22:07 AM
I'd love to get with you and get copies of your work for Feed, if you are open to sharing, please.

I've sent you a message via discord.

---

As I mentioned I did try creating my own ST retroclone incorporating what I considered the most efficient rules from the various iterations of the system (as well as other systems like a Godbound-esque system for superpowers), while at the same time shaving unnecessary bits like WoD's excessive lore and refining bits like CoD's initial attempt to have open-ended lore. (In other words I was more or less reinventing The Everlasting: that was made by an ex-WW freelancer in response to WoD. It's sort of a proto-CoD (some of the jargon is identical, like blood-potency and numina), although in some ways it's superior to CoD: it had unified rules for superpowers and magic because it was designed from the start to easily support mixed groups.)

Ultimately I came to a couple of conclusions. Firstly, if I don't care about the various personality mechanics then I can probably do it better by using an existing system like GURPS, or better yet WitchCraft, Liminal, Urban Shadows, or other urban fantasy games that are better designed. Secondly, if I do care about personality mechanics then it's probably better to use a system designed to support them from the ground up, like Feed, rather than using a generic simulationist system which had personality mechanics crudely bolted on, like ST or Everlasting.

Admittedly, Feed isn't designed to replicate struggles other than humanity vs vampirism (or other man-eating monster-isms). I was inspired to try making spin-offs that explored other monsters with different metaphors, like werewolf instincts, ghost grief, wizard corruption or whatever, but ultimately I put that on the backburner because it would be a huge effort to pull off for very little reward. Furthermore, trying to run mixed groups using such rules would run into some of the same issues that have afflicted mixed parties in ST and Everlasting: each group has different struggles that require different book keeping. That remains the case even if everyone uses the same rules for superpowers.

So if you want to be efficient, then you can either play a game where the monsters all have the same internal struggles... or you can ditch those rules and play basically superheroes. Anything else is just going to increase complexity for decreasing benefit.

Quote from: Batjon on July 14, 2022, 09:00:39 PM
Except for the fact that I loathe GURPS as a gaming engine.

I don't get the hate some people have (outside of Pulver's exercises in accounting), but I don't get the love others have either.  Some things it can handle well enough, others it can't.  Overall, I find it mechanically better than the Storyteller System (a low bar to jump admittedly), but mainly I'm just throwing out options.