V20 is also very difficult to get a physical copy of and very expensive.

It's a quick Google search away.

I saw physical copies online for $350.

PDF + Hardcover B&W Book is $44.99 on DriveThruRPG, but it is sill just a mildly updated compendium of an older edition and I cannot see the rules separating gracefully from the lore.

As for Nightlife I own the 2nd. edition version of the game and have most of the stuff put out for it.  Other than the Humanity mechanic, which I'm hearing is a bit swingy, how does the game play? Does it play pretty well and is fairly rules lite to medium?

Does anyone know of any vampire or urban fantasy-oriented adventure generators and/or adventures that would be good for a modern setting, especially where trying to hold onto humanity is a central theme?

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 12, 2022, 10:40:24 PMIt is, however, not nearly as pervasive as Box likes to tell everyone it is because apparently VtM murdered his puppy or something.

It didn't kill my puppy, but when I got into VTR the VTM fans mercilessly cyberbullied me for the entire time I was in the fandom because they were butthurt over not being validated. They're crybully assholes and I despise them for souring my experience.

The WW games are shitty games played by shitty people, and I wouldn't recommend anyone ever play them. VTM has all that lore baggage that the asshole fans religiously worship, and they'll crucify you if you don't religiously adhere to it. VTR has its own baggage, but VTM fans will bully you merciless if you express any interest in it. The whole shithole fandom can go die in a fire.

I don't hate VTM specifically, but damn do I hate the fans and I can't extricate my awful experiences with them from the game itself. But even if I could, I'm not just interested in VTM. I don't like its bloated overbearing lore or its many many idiosyncrasies like its bizarre obsessive jargon or its weird rules like hierarchical superpowers or generational limits. I preferred VTR's rules (even tho it still suffered from many of the same problems)... or at least I did before 2e fucked them up with all that conditions shit and V5 overhauled the superpowers in a way that makes VTR look like a dinosaur. I have had it with that shit and switched over to Feed because the rules are just superior in every way, the author doesn't tell you the right way to play, and I'm way less likely to get cybercrybullied out of the blue over expressing an interest in it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 12, 2022, 10:40:24 PM
The extent of the lore isn't much more than what he already shared in his comment above and, in V20 all that is also treated like a Myth... like Adam and Eve and Noah and the Flood... rather than as THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED! i.e. the most popular legend for vampiric origins is they're descended from Caine through the founders of each of the Clans. But there's also stories that Lilith was the first vampire, or Ravnos was, or Set was.

A lot of people like to pretend that's the case, but the rules are written as though it's fact. The fans will also crucify you if you don't religiously adhere to it.

The basic problem with VTM is that it has a lot of self-referential detritus that it has accumulated which is completely irrelevant to the sorts of adventures that Batjon has said he wants to play. Not just the lore/metaplot, but the bazillion bloodlines, generational limits, the arbitrary hierarchical structure of superpowers, etc. When it comes to trying to replicate something like Forever Knight, it just isn't worth it. You'd have to dump most of it anyway.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 12, 2022, 10:40:24 PMHe just really doesn't like anyone even looking at VtM as a prospect.

That's not true. I did a detailed conversion to Feed, after all. Because this argument is a false dichotomy: Feed is designed to let you emulate any particular vampire fiction, including VTM.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 12, 2022, 10:40:24 PMBy contrast many of the others (including V5) seem to only have one way they want to have you approach vampirism... Feed, for example, is only interested in vampirism as an addiction narrative.

Batjon has already explained that he wants to evoke Forever Knight specifically; Feed is geared towards exactly that. Also, Feed is much more flexible than you give it credit for: it includes satanic b-movie vampires as one of the sample settings. In that setting, you're explicitly playing as villains like Jerry Dandrige or Santanico Pandemonium. In this case, your humanity isn't a measurement of your humane compassion but rather a cover used to conceal your villainy. The other sample settings include a heavy handed addiction metaphor, vampirism as wishes granted by a pact with demons, and vampirism as metaphor for the cycle of violence. It doesn't have a vampions setting right out of the box, but it would be easy to make one. Feed is designed to emulate vampire fiction, after all.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 12, 2022, 10:40:24 PMBut those are entirely optional. Take what you want; leave the rest. That's probably V20's greatest strength.

Its strength is being a WW game. If you're not interested in precisely that, then it's not worth it. It's not an all-purpose vampire game, it is very specifically glued to its one campaign setting and all its idiosyncrasies and baggage. If you try to homebrew or go against the assumptions, then you have your work cut out for you and the game is going to fight you every step of the way.

You can certainly mine it for inspiration, but as a game it is not suited for evoking the atmosphere of any vampire fiction except itself.

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Quote from: Batjon on July 13, 2022, 04:08:26 AM
As for Nightlife I own the 2nd. edition version of the game and have most of the stuff put out for it.  Other than the Humanity mechanic, which I'm hearing is a bit swingy, how does the game play? Does it play pretty well and is fairly rules lite to medium?

It's a d100 system from the late 80s/early 90s and the devs were flying by the seat of their pants when they made it. So you can expect it be about as clunky as other games that fit that description.

Quote from: Batjon on July 13, 2022, 04:09:33 AM
Does anyone know of any vampire or urban fantasy-oriented adventure generators and/or adventures that would be good for a modern setting, especially where trying to hold onto humanity is a central theme?

It's going to be very difficult to find adventures in that vein. Adventures with a modern setting are already rare, urban fantasy rarer still, and adventures with situations specifically relevant to vampires struggling to hold on to their humanity are almost non-existent. WW games were never big on scenarios and just leave you to figure that out on your own, and what little they did produce always involves either metaplot developments or clique politics.

With regard to modern horror/urban fantasy, has anyone tried out Liminal? Or is it also too lore heavy?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 12, 2022, 11:05:33 AM

Quote from: Batjon on July 11, 2022, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 11, 2022, 11:33:17 AM

Quote from: Batjon on July 11, 2022, 04:24:30 AM
I am interested in playing/running a campaign about one or possibly more vampire characters struggling to deal with their immortal existence and what it entails while trying to hold onto whatever humanity remains desperately and possibly even trying to pay back society for the wrongs they have had to commit given their affliction.  The idea is heavily inspired by the old tv show Forever Knight and would allow for some other PC and NPC types like Werewolves and such.

I think I have it narrowed down to 2 games:

Angel RPG by Eden Studios (Cinematic Unisystem) or Nightlife RPG 2nd. Edition by Stellar Games.

Which would you choose? Which is the superior game? I tend to prefer rules lite to medium games.  Which is more rules-lite?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/124387

I recommend this one instead. It's similar to Nightlife in premise (I did a conversion on my blog a while back, it's easy), but the humanity system is vastly refined. Also, it's free.

I actually own this game, both PDF and physical.  I have not fully read it yet but it seemed to me while looking through it that it was basically more of a vampire construction kit rather than a fully fledged game.  I also do not think you can make other supernatural types with it.

Am I wrong? Are you able to tell me more about it?

Don't worry, it is a fully fledged game. It include 4 sample settings with wildly different takes on vampires, a chapter on trends in vampire fiction since gothic times, and many plot hooks scattered across the book. There's a donors supplement with human NPCs, and a youtube channel (altho been silent for years). The author didn't produce any further books for it (it was funded on kickstarter), but it's a complete game.

The rules are definitely flexible enough to support other kinds of splats. There's aren't any special mechanics for them (I'm currently trying to rectify that by working on some), but you can create them with vampiric impulses a la Nightlife and it works fine. I wrote some conversions on my blog that you can use.


In Feed what if I want to have a human PC in the group as well? Doesn't the game only support playing vampires? Also, what about human NPCs and other supernatural type PCs and NPCs?

Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 13, 2022, 11:31:22 AM
With regard to modern horror/urban fantasy, has anyone tried out Liminal? Or is it also too lore heavy?

I own Liminal.  It looks like a simple system but it disappointed me in that you can only play as a Dhampir and not a full-fledged vampire if you wanted to do that.

Quote from: Batjon on July 13, 2022, 11:35:26 AM
In Feed what if I want to have a human PC in the group as well? Doesn't the game only support playing vampires? Also, what about human NPCs and other supernatural type PCs and NPCs?

Rules for playing mortals are found on page 35. Rules for creating NPCs starts on page 61. The Donors PDF includes around a dozen or so human character sheets, useable as both PCs and NPCs. Page 103-4 includes rules for representing other supernatural non-vampiric forces.

The rules for non-vampiric forces aren't as detailed as those for vampires, but it is very easy to represent Nightlife's kin races as strains using the same rules because they all feed on humans. I successfully converted the werewolves, ghosts, wights, demons, inuats, and animates into strains. It was pretty easy.

I have been experimenting with creating spin-offs where non-vampiric supernatural characters replace Addiction with something else, like werewolf instincts or ghost grief, but nothing in a playable state. In any case, if you're trying to emulate Forever Knight then I think Nightlife kin races that all use the same Addiction/Hunger rules work fine and will have less book keeping compared to every character having a unique torment that dilutes the overall atmosphere.

Quote from: Batjon on July 13, 2022, 11:46:12 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 13, 2022, 11:31:22 AM
With regard to modern horror/urban fantasy, has anyone tried out Liminal? Or is it also too lore heavy?

I own Liminal.  It looks like a simple system but it disappointed me in that you can only play as a Damphir and not a full-fledged vampire if you wanted to do that.

I don't understand that complaint. The vampires in Liminal are soulless monsters, whereas dhampir are vampires with human souls and less severe weaknesses. It's the same thing as Buffy/Angel and Sonja Blue. That sounds almost exactly like what you're looking for?

I definitely agree with the suggestions to use Night Shift or Liminal. I don't think they represent the schism between humanity and vampirism well if at all like Feed does, but if you prefer more traditional RPG design then they'll work fine.

Also, if you like Angel, Eden also published WitchCraft using the same system. It's an urban fantasy where you can play as wizards, vampires, werewolves, ghosts, and more. It doesn't have a humanity mechanic, but it provides the tools for more light hearted adventures mixing up Charmed with the X-Files.

Quote from: Batjon on July 12, 2022, 12:33:09 AM
Is there any setting stuff included in V20 at all? With that tome being over 500 pages I would have imagined it being full of lore.  I also have read people describe the mechanics as clunky.

Here's the kicker: you can ignore all the metaplot and setting if you want by simply excising the stuff you don't like.

The basic dice pool mechanic is generic enough all the old WoD games used it with no (meaningful) modifications.  Vampire then tacks on mechanics for Humanity, Virtues, Disciplines, Blood Pools, and Generation, along with vampy specific Edges and Flaws and a few other vampy specific mechanics (like Frenzy and Rotschrek or however the hell it's spelled).  From there you can trim down to your idea of how a vampire should work ("all vampires have a fixed Generation of 8, the only Disciplines are Potence/Celerity/Fortitude/Auspex/Dominate/Protean, and there are no Clans or Caine or Gehenna").  While a lot of folks certainly think the setting is inseparable from the systems, it isn't.

Having said all that, the basic Storyteller System wasn't all that balanced or good 30+ years ago and people have been trying to fix or outright replace it ever since.  I seem to recall thinking V20 fixed some things, and 5ed fixed some other stuff, but it's been literal years since I last looked.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 13, 2022, 03:37:49 PM

Quote from: Batjon on July 12, 2022, 12:33:09 AM
Is there any setting stuff included in V20 at all? With that tome being over 500 pages I would have imagined it being full of lore.  I also have read people describe the mechanics as clunky.

Here's the kicker: you can ignore all the metaplot and setting if you want by simply excising the stuff you don't like.

The basic dice pool mechanic is generic enough all the old WoD games used it with no (meaningful) modifications.  Vampire then tacks on mechanics for Humanity, Virtues, Disciplines, Blood Pools, and Generation, along with vampy specific Edges and Flaws and a few other vampy specific mechanics (like Frenzy and Rotschrek or however the hell it's spelled).  From there you can trim down to your idea of how a vampire should work ("all vampires have a fixed Generation of 8, the only Disciplines are Potence/Celerity/Fortitude/Auspex/Dominate/Protean, and there are no Clans or Caine or Gehenna").  While a lot of folks certainly think the setting is inseparable from the systems, it isn't.

Having said all that, the basic Storyteller System wasn't all that balanced or good 30+ years ago and people have been trying to fix or outright replace it ever since.  I seem to recall thinking V20 fixed some things, and 5ed fixed some other stuff, but it's been literal years since I last looked.

You can ignore the setting and homebrew it, but at point you don't have any reason to play the game. The game was designed with the setting first, the system second... And yeah, the system just isn't very good. The writers have been tinkering with it for decades and every iteration has left something to be desired. Some more than others.

For a system that calls itself StoryWhatever depending on the game, it's not actually a story game. It's way more convoluted than it needs to be, what with attributes, skills, personality traits, miscellaneous advantages, disadvantages, superpowers, etc. It's a running joke that groups mostly ignore the rules.

I've tried tweaking it myself using the Opening the Dark SRD as a basis, trying to combine all the best iterations of various mechanics to create a streamlined version of the system. I eventually came to the conclusion that I should ditch dice pools and roll 1d10+attribute+skill to beat DC 9 like Unisystem does.

I should probably go into more detail on that last bit.

The ST system, in any iteration, uses dice pools and in convoluted fashion. There are several "difficulty sliders": The amount of dice in a pool, the pips/face you need to roll for a die to produce a pass, the number of passes that need to be rolled to determine whether an action is successful, and whether dice "explode" or not upon rolling a 10 (or 9, or 8s ). And all of these can have modifiers applied too. V20 lets you add modifiers to the dice pool, the target pips, and the target passes... all of which affect the probability of success in ways that are not equivalent. Some iterations realized this was too convoluted and used fixed values for the second and third, like CoD. In CoD you only need to meet 8 pips to get a pass, and you only need one for an action to be successful, so all modifiers are applied to dice pool and rarely to exploding thresholds; the only problem with this simplicity is that you can't conceal values from the players, so they can metagame the opponent's defense value in combat. In V5 you only need to roll 6+ pips to get a pass, but modifiers can be applied to dice pool and/or the number of passes needed to succeed... and these two types of modifiers are not equivalent in how they alter the probability of success. These explanations are also heavily simplified for the purpose of brevity. I didn't mention stuff like 1s subtracting from passes or the fact that "success" is confusing used to refer to both a passing die and a dice pool check that succeeds.

Meanwhile, Unisystem's 1d10 roll has only one possible type of probabilistic modifier. You apply a modifier to the result of the dice roll... or you can apply a modifier to the target number if you're trying to conceal that modifier from the player, but these are equivalent in how they alter the probability. Obviously this is a lot simpler than dealing with all of those questionable probability sliders.

So if I was trying to write an ST retroclone, then the first thing I would do is switch to Unisystem dice rolling because I can't be bothered to deal with all that.