Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 02:37:37 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2022, 02:15:35 PM
but some systems are designed for multiple settings and genres - like GURPS, Hero System, Savage Worlds, and Basic Roleplaying.

Since GURPS was designed from the ground up to address multiple genres well it and since GURPS IV (Fourth Edition) literally went through a decade of extensive playtesting, I think as an end product, GURPS does what it was designed to do fairly well.

I also happen to prefer the core gaming mechanics aside from it's genre versatility.

I haven't played Hero System, but it has a reputation for being even more crunchy and complicated than GURPS is professed to be.

Savage World (herein "SW") (IMHO) is overly simplistic.  While it professes to handle multiple genres well, I think the SW it's simply just  its own rule sets with different setting skins slapped on top of it.

"Basic Roleplaying" is a new term for me.  Any insight on what this is?

Filling you in a little on Hero System and Basic Roleplaying (BRP) --

Hero System is a little more complicated than GURPS at present, but I would say 4th edition Hero System (1989) is roughly equivalent to 4th edition GURPS (2004). Still, both of them are overly complicated for most gamers today.

Basic Roleplaying is the name of the Chaosium core percentile system. Versions of this system were used in RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, but it was published independently in 1982 as the first universal RPG, "Worlds of Wonder" that included three genre books: Magic World, Future World, and Super World. Here's about the original game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_of_Wonder_(game)

Here's the current edition from Chaosium:

https://www.chaosium.com/basic-roleplaying/

Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2022, 05:00:34 PM

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 02:37:37 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2022, 02:15:35 PM
but some systems are designed for multiple settings and genres - like GURPS, Hero System, Savage Worlds, and Basic Roleplaying.

Since GURPS was designed from the ground up to address multiple genres well it and since GURPS IV (Fourth Edition) literally went through a decade of extensive playtesting, I think as an end product, GURPS does what it was designed to do fairly well.

I also happen to prefer the core gaming mechanics aside from it's genre versatility.

I haven't played Hero System, but it has a reputation for being even more crunchy and complicated than GURPS is professed to be.

Savage World (herein "SW") (IMHO) is overly simplistic.  While it professes to handle multiple genres well, I think the SW it's simply just  its own rule sets with different setting skins slapped on top of it.

"Basic Roleplaying" is a new term for me.  Any insight on what this is?

Filling you in a little on Hero System and Basic Roleplaying (BRP) --

Hero System is a little more complicated than GURPS at present, but I would say 4th edition Hero System (1989) is roughly equivalent to 4th edition GURPS (2004). Still, both of them are overly complicated for most gamers today.

Basic Roleplaying is the name of the Chaosium core percentile system. Versions of this system were used in RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, but it was published independently in 1982 as the first universal RPG, "Worlds of Wonder" that included three genre books: Magic World, Future World, and Super World. Here's about the original game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_of_Wonder_(game)

Here's the current edition from Chaosium:

https://www.chaosium.com/basic-roleplaying/

Mark,

I can let you borrow my copy of the most recent edition of BRP if you'd like.

I actually downloaded the free pdf of the BRP and got a good preview of the rules.

I did play a couple of games of RuneQuest WAY BACK when and it looks the Chaosium has updated and made their skills systems work better than the original RuneQuest rules.


I'm guessing that BRP works a bit better than D&D?  What are your experiences with BRP vs D&D?

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 05:24:15 PM
I actually downloaded the free pdf of the BRP and got a good preview of the rules.

I did play a couple of games of RuneQuest WAY BACK when and it looks the Chaosium has updated and made their skills systems work better than the original RuneQuest rules.


I'm guessing that BRP works a bit better than D&D?  What are your experiences with BRP vs D&D?

So far, my experience is that it takes up less shelf space than my D&D books. I've never played it, and I only bought it because it was on a clearance shelf for $10. It was in perfect shape and was interesting to flip through, but I never pursued it any further.

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 01:23:04 PM
In part I believe that GURPS Magic is the best magic system ever developed for a roleplaying game.

OK, sell me on Gurps Magic.  What are the basic rules?  How does it work? How does it scale?  How flexible is it?  Give me some examples, because I'm curious about different approaches to magic...

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 05:24:15 PM
I actually downloaded the free pdf of the BRP and got a good preview of the rules.

I did play a couple of games of RuneQuest WAY BACK when and it looks the Chaosium has updated and made their skills systems work better than the original RuneQuest rules.

I'm guessing that BRP works a bit better than D&D?  What are your experiences with BRP vs D&D?

I've played a bunch of Call of Cthulhu and some variant RuneQuest which use the BRP system, but never used BRP universal book directly.

I don't think I can compare it to D&D, because it's very different genres. Call of Cthulhu is horror with PCs regularly dying or doing insane. In my experience, BRP tends to be even grittier and/or more realistic than GURPS. In principle, it can be high power, but that doesn't seem to be where the focus is. I've generally used it for more down-to-earth games where the PCs were regular people caught up in big events.

GURPS, and any OSR-like attempts, needs to be simplified suites... little bundles of skills tied to a setting. That and an on-table cheat sheet for core mechanics resolution. Those two things, a) skill deluge, and b) 1 second round analysis paralysis, kills most new player interest dead on contact. GURPS needs new blood more that it needs another mechanics book, and for that it needs glossy, normie-friendly re-packaging. Normies barely want to think for their entertainment; they typically want to sit passively and be pleasured and then move on. Quick (chargen), easy (decision trees), disposable (mechanics experience). KISS design.

This is a relevant topic, in light of SJG's latest statement.  Many GURPS players are probably shopping for a replacement.

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 04:22:55 AM
GURPS, and any OSR-like attempts, needs to be simplified suites... little bundles of skills tied to a setting. That and an on-table cheat sheet for core mechanics resolution. Those two things, a) skill deluge, and b) 1 second round analysis paralysis, kills most new player interest dead on contact. GURPS needs new blood more that it needs another mechanics book, and for that it needs glossy, normie-friendly re-packaging. Normies barely want to think for their entertainment; they typically want to sit passively and be pleasured and then move on. Quick (chargen), easy (decision trees), disposable (mechanics experience). KISS design.

GURPS purists denouncing you as an apostate in 5, 4, 3...

Seriously tho, this is something that has been propossed before (and said purists got their panties in a bunch). There's a reason why IMHO GURPS ONLY good products are their setting books.

Overcomplicated BS rubs me the wrong way.

But then Again I favor Champions over Hero and have said MANY times that Hero should stop producing RULE BRICKS BOOKS and focus on producing whole self contained games a la Fantasy, Cyberpunk, etc Hero.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 16, 2022, 12:12:16 AM

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 01:23:04 PM
In part I believe that GURPS Magic is the best magic system ever developed for a roleplaying game.

OK, sell me on Gurps Magic.  What are the basic rules?  How does it work? How does it scale?  How flexible is it?  Give me some examples, because I'm curious about different approaches to magic...

I'll try by best.  Here goes.

* Spells, in GURPS are skills.  So each spell you pick up is a new skill.  When it comes time to cast a spell, the player rolls a skill check to see if the spell succeeds.  (Stands to reason as GURPS is a skills based RPG).

* Mana.  In addition to doing a skill check the spells have a Mana cost that needs to be paid.  There are generally three sources for Mana: 1) Fatigue Points from the spell Caster, 2) Hit Points (also from the spell caster), and 3) Lastly there are a handful of external sources one can use.  Typically, Powerstones are used as they can store up Mana over time and that power can be channeled into spells.

Usually, Fatigue Points are the preferred currency.  But if you spend all of those, you become exhausted and can faint.  Hit points are possible and yes, a Mage can literally kill themselves while casting a powerful spell.

Powerstones have limitations, but they're well worth their price.  Be sure to pick some up at the store while your out and about.

With some spells the caster can inject a variable amount of Mana into the spell.  The Fireball Spell, for instance, the caster can inject Mana equivalent to their Magery level.  Most PC's are encouraged to have at least a Magery 3 so a player character should be able to channel between 1 to 3 Mana into a basic fireball spell, which conversely makes the fireball more powerful.

Last point about Mana; a Mage that achieves advanced levels of skill mastery can cast spells at a reduced Mana cost (as they tap into external mana rather than grabbing it all internally).  So a Mage expert in Fireball, has the option to cast low powered fireballs all day long.

* Advanced Spells and Prerequisites.  More powerful spells require a Mage to learn simpler spells first.  As an example, one of the basic Fire college spells "Fireball" (most similar to D&D Firebolt or eldritch blast) requires a Mage to know the two spells Create Fire & Shape Fire before Fireball can be learned.

And to learn the spell "Explosive Fireball" one needs to master Fireball first.

Though its different from the other skills in GURPS I love how the magic systems has this built on feeling.  Sure you can Cast an awesome spell like "Fire Cloud" but you won't be casting that on your first day at the Mages Academy.  Spells like that take some time to master.

* There are over 400 unique spells in the GURPS Magic sourcebook.

That's more spells than pages in the D&D Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide COMBINED!  (Sure, I exaggerate.  But not by much . . .)!

The possibilities of what's possible are mind blowing.  Not for the weak of mind or the faint of heart to be sure.  The diversity of spells available allow players to create Mages of different focuses and capabilities.  I once played a "Ranger" whose most impressive spell was "Rain of NUTS!" which he actually used to great effect.

* Flexible?  Yeah GURPS is flexible and so is GURPS Magic.

As a GM you can just use the default GURPS Magic rules but there are variations available.  If you want to have a healing specific Clerical mage class available, instead of taking the "Magery" advantage (a prerequisite for spell casters) pick up the Clerical Endowment (sp) Advantage and limit those clerics to healing college spells only.

And there are Magic limiting disadvantages that limit casters to one or a handful of colleges too, for added forced focus, if the players so choose.

* Spell slots?  How stupid.  GURPS Mages generally can cast WAY more spells than their D&D equivalent.  Indeed, those life and death combat spells that an adventuring Mage needs can be cast all day without the issue of running out of arrows, like that poor archer.

* Memorized spells?  Of course your spells are memorized in GURPS!  You couldn't cast any of these spells until you memorize them!  But once you do, you cast those spells a will.  Once a spell is learned it STAYS learned.  Casters can cast any spell they know so long as they have the Mana to power that spell.  And they can cast it as often as they wish, so long as they are awake and have mana to pour into their spells.  For a D&D parallel, Mages can recharge on a "short rest."

If your mages spends time in the morning memorizing spells, its time spent memorizing NEW spells.  It may take you a couple of weeks, but once a new spell is picked up it stays learned.

* Sleep?  Who needs sleep?  Well everyone does actually.  You can go crazy without sleep.  Sleep deprivation is bad!!!  But missing a nights sleep isn't any worse off for a Mage than it is for the Meat Shield.  I mean fighter.

In conclusion, those are some of the basics to GURPS Magic and some of the reasons why it appeals to me.  From a meta standpoint, the GURPS Magic system makes more sense than anything else I've seen.


Sure there are nay-sayers who are going to complain that GURPS is too hard (for you).  And you're right.  It's too difficult.  GURPS has long been the purview of the erudite intellectual.

That said, when I wrote my comparison article on GURPS where I compared it to D&D 5E (Herein available: https://www.jongedge.com/rpg-articles/gurpsreview/ ) I noted that GURPS 4th Edition is actually simpler than D&D 5E . . .  (Yes I know the Wordpress site is broken.  Just click the "close" button at the bottom of the page to finish loaded.  I'm working on a Cobalt Template format for the site and that should be up and running by the end of August 2022).  In reality, the Magic rules for GURPS is a handful of pages and then has options for variety.  The vast majority of GURPS Magic is the catalogue of 400+ unique spells.

My observations have also led me to believe that anyone too lazy to learn GURPS is also too lazy to actually learn D&D 5E.

However, GURPS Magic has over 400 spells!  That alone is a steep learning curve.  But it's one that I enjoyed climbing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 17, 2022, 12:11:06 PM

GURPS purists denouncing you as an apostate in 5, 4, 3...

I might be the only GURPS purist on this site . . .

BUT guilty as charged!

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 17, 2022, 12:30:19 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 16, 2022, 12:12:16 AM

Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 15, 2022, 01:23:04 PM
In part I believe that GURPS Magic is the best magic system ever developed for a roleplaying game.

OK, sell me on Gurps Magic.  What are the basic rules?  How does it work? How does it scale?  How flexible is it?  Give me some examples, because I'm curious about different approaches to magic...

I'll try by best.  Here goes.

* Spells, in GURPS are skills.  So each spell you pick up is a new skill.  When it comes time to cast a spell, the player rolls a skill check to see if the spell succeeds.  (Stands to reason as GURPS is a skills based RPG).

* Mana.  In addition to doing a skill check the spells have a Mana cost that needs to be paid.  There are generally three sources for Mana: 1) Fatigue Points from the spell Caster, 2) Hit Points (also from the spell caster), and 3) Lastly there are a handful of external sources one can use.  Typically, Powerstones are used as they can store up Mana over time and that power can be channeled into spells.

Usually, Fatigue Points are the preferred currency.  But if you spend all of those, you become exhausted and can faint.  Hit points are possible and yes, a Mage can literally kill themselves while casting a powerful spell.

Powerstones have limitations, but they're well worth their price.  Be sure to pick some up at the store while your out and about.

With some spells the caster can inject a variable amount of Mana into the spell.  The Fireball Spell, for instance, the caster can inject Mana equivalent to their Magery level.  Most PC's are encouraged to have at least a Magery 3 so a player character should be able to channel between 1 to 3 Mana into a basic fireball spell, which conversely makes the fireball more powerful.

Last point about Mana; a Mage that achieves advanced levels of skill mastery can cast spells at a reduced Mana cost (as they tap into external mana rather than grabbing it all internally).  So a Mage expert in Fireball, has the option to cast low powered fireballs all day long.

* Advanced Spells and Prerequisites.  More powerful spells require a Mage to learn simpler spells first.  As an example, one of the basic Fire college spells "Fireball" (most similar to D&D Firebolt or eldritch blast) requires a Mage to know the two spells Create Fire & Shape Fire before Fireball can be learned.

And to learn the spell "Explosive Fireball" one needs to master Fireball first.

Though its different from the other skills in GURPS I love how the magic systems has this built on feeling.  Sure you can Cast an awesome spell like "Fire Cloud" but you won't be casting that on your first day at the Mages Academy.  Spells like that take some time to master.

* There are over 400 unique spells in the GURPS Magic sourcebook.

That's more spells than pages in the D&D Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide COMBINED!  (Sure, I exaggerate.  But not by much . . .)!

The possibilities of what's possible are mind blowing.  Not for the weak of mind or the faint of heart to be sure.  The diversity of spells available allow players to create Mages of different focuses and capabilities.  I once played a "Ranger" whose most impressive spell was "Rain of NUTS!" which he actually used to great effect.

* Flexible?  Yeah GURPS is flexible and so is GURPS Magic.

As a GM you can just use the default GURPS Magic rules but there are variations available.  If you want to have a healing specific Clerical mage class available, instead of taking the "Magery" advantage (a prerequisite for spell casters) pick up the Clerical Endowment (sp) Advantage and limit those clerics to healing college spells only.

And there are Magic limiting disadvantages that limit casters to one or a handful of colleges too, for added forced focus, if the players so choose.

* Spell slots?  How stupid.  GURPS Mages generally can cast WAY more spells than their D&D equivalent.  Indeed, those life and death combat spells that an adventuring Mage needs can be cast all day without the issue of running out of arrows, like that poor archer.

* Memorized spells?  Of course your spells are memorized in GURPS!  You couldn't cast any of these spells until you memorize them!  But once you do, you cast those spells a will.  Once a spell is learned it STAYS learned.  Casters can cast any spell they know so long as they have the Mana to power that spell.  And they can cast it as often as they wish, so long as they are awake and have mana to pour into their spells.  For a D&D parallel, Mages can recharge on a "short rest."

If your mages spends time in the morning memorizing spells, its time spent memorizing NEW spells.  It may take you a couple of weeks, but once a new spell is picked up it stays learned.

* Sleep?  Who needs sleep?  Well everyone does actually.  You can go crazy without sleep.  Sleep deprivation is bad!!!  But missing a nights sleep isn't any worse off for a Mage than it is for the Meat Shield.  I mean fighter.

In conclusion, those are some of the basics to GURPS Magic and some of the reasons why it appeals to me.  From a meta standpoint, the GURPS Magic system makes more sense than anything else I've seen.


Sure there are nay-sayers who are going to complain that GURPS is too hard (for you).  And you're right.  It's too difficult.  GURPS has long been the purview of the erudite intellectual.

That said, when I wrote my comparison article on GURPS where I compared it to D&D 5E (Herein available: https://www.jongedge.com/rpg-articles/gurpsreview/ ) I noted that GURPS 4th Edition is actually simpler than D&D 5E . . .  (Yes I know the Wordpress site is broken.  Just click the "close" button at the bottom of the page to finish loaded.  I'm working on a Cobalt Template format for the site and that should be up and running by the end of August 2022).  In reality, the Magic rules for GURPS is a handful of pages and then has options for variety.  The vast majority of GURPS Magic is the catalogue of 400+ unique spells.

My observations have also led me to believe that anyone too lazy to learn GURPS is also too lazy to actually learn D&D 5E.

However, GURPS Magic has over 400 spells!  That alone is a steep learning curve.  But it's one that I enjoyed climbing.

Thanks for the description!  It warrants further investigation.

  I am denounceable! My GURPS heresies shall ignite the heavens.

Seriously though, there is quite a bit worth keeping from GURPS. I don't give much import to industry drama, and to each their own there, but there is still utility to their published content and design paradigm. To lose that to drama is sad, y'know: Baby, bathwater, and all that. But I see a greater natural threat from apathy, entropy, and their true believers aging 'closed market'.

It would be sad to see them fade into the sunset regardless the last act. I think it has something to impart both in content and design legacy.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 18, 2022, 08:47:34 AM
Thanks for the description!  It warrants further investigation.

Download GURPS Lite 3rd edition for a basic overview. It is free and as far as GURPS Magic goes it is the subsystem with the least amount of change in the conversion over to the 4e.
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/gurps-lite-third-edition