Which games have especially interesting and well thought out spirit worlds?
What makes an effective 'gamable' spirit world?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;883802Which games have especially interesting and well thought out spirit worlds?
What makes an effective 'gamable' spirit world?
I'm not sure what exactly "spirit world" is meant to be, whether it's a place where literal spirits reside (ghosts, souls and other not-quite alive beings), or a place similar to WoD's Umbra.
I assume "an alternative to material reality", and if so, then Lovecraftian
Dreamlands, KULTish
Metropolis, other
chessboards from JAGS: Wonderland, the weird reality of
The Mad City from DRYH, or realms of
HOD from Witchcraft RPG (btw, Hod has nothing in common with dreams, Chokmah is the one responsible for that part of reality... hmmm, yesss...), and of course everything what resembles Gigerian dark biometal realms.
Gamable "spirit world"?
- It must be well developed: some interesting, recognizable places are to be expected.
- It must be full of different creatures, both "friendly" and hostile.
- There has to be something special, some alternative rules to influence the surroundings, shape it, or at least travel across it.
- It must offer possibilities entirely different to our reality, so it's actually reasonable (and possibly profitable) to visit them every now and then.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;883808I'm not sure what exactly "spirit world" is meant to be, whether it's a place where literal spirits reside (ghosts, souls and other not-quite alive beings), or a place similar to WoD's Umbra.
More the latter than the former I suppose.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;883819More the latter than the former I suppose.
My answer is very relevant then, I think.
Out of curiosity: would London Below featured in Gaiman's "Neverwhere" fit your idea of spirit world?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;883819More the latter than the former I suppose.
The new WoD has a Shadow Realm as well called the Hisil. If you want that but not attached to the Werewolf franchise, you could take a look at the Book of Spirits. Interaction with spirits is always difficult for mortals though.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;883897The new WoD has a Shadow Realm as well called the Hisil. If you want that but not attached to the Werewolf franchise, you could take a look at the Book of Spirits. Interaction with spirits is always difficult for mortals though.
Took your recommendation for Book of Spirits. Not bad, thanks.
QuoteOut of curiosity: would London Below featured in Gaiman's "Neverwhere" fit your idea of spirit world?
Not familiar with it alas. I suppose any, "layer of supernatural weird reality that can be accessed from the real world with some difficulty," would qualify though.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;883946Took your recommendation for Book of Spirits. Not bad, thanks.
Not familiar with it alas. I suppose any, "layer of supernatural weird reality that can be accessed from the real world with some difficulty," would qualify though.
Everlasting had a gestalten variation of WoD's umbra called "the reverie." It was described as an onion-like series of layers, starting with abnormal perception of reality and gradually segueing into a different reality altogether. Like much of the cosmology in Everlasting, the frame of reference (how its layers related to mundane reality and each other) was poorly enunciated. The underworld, for example, includes a layer mirroring Earth, a Greco-Mayan underground tunnel network and a Giger-style nightmare land but the geography and transportation is never explained.
Edit: The odd thing is that real world animistic religion and folklore doesn't display any concept of a separate spirit world. Spirits exist invisibly alongside the physical world, much as human souls are supposed to exist alongside our bodies. The only other worlds are specifically non-animistic afterlives and fairylands and even then these are supposed to be alien worlds with their own alien physical laws.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;884095Edit: The odd thing is that real world animistic religion and folklore doesn't display any concept of a separate spirit world. Spirits exist invisibly alongside the physical world, much as human souls are supposed to exist alongside our bodies. The only other worlds are specifically non-animistic afterlives and fairylands and even then these are supposed to be alien worlds with their own alien physical laws.
Tricky.
Where do you place
shamanism in context of
animism?
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884117Tricky.
Where do you place shamanism in context of animism?
Shamanism was made up by anthropologists, neopagans and con artists who misappropriate other cultures. The spirit world is and always has been a metaphorical world, like the criminal underworld, and not a literal otherworld like Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Underworld or Fairyland.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;884201Shamanism was made up by anthropologists, neopagans and con artists who misappropriate other cultures. The spirit world is and always has been a metaphorical world, like the criminal underworld, and not a literal otherworld like Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Underworld or Fairyland.
So when for example an Altaic "animist" undertakes a sky journey through nine to twelve celestial realms, it means . . . ?
As for OP, anything with a viable "cyberspace" navigation and combat subsystem probably qualifies.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;884201Shamanism was made up by anthropologists, neopagans and con artists who misappropriate other cultures.
I see. :pundit:
Marchland (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/106383/Marchland) has four otherwolds called Arcadia (realm of the Fae), Echo (dark reflection of our world), the Wildwood (first forest) and Obliette (underworld, hell). Echo seems to be some sort of noirish spirit world.
What do you want to do with it btw? Some sort of paranormal investigation game?
It was a long time ago but the River of Dreams in Tribe 8 was a pretty interesting spirit world. I just remember having a blast reading Adrift on the River of Dreams.
Quote from: kobayashi;884227It was a long time ago but the River of Dreams in Tribe 8 was a pretty interesting spirit world. I just remember having a blast reading Adrift on the River of Dreams.
Jesus Christ, somebody remembers
Tribe 8...
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884230Jesus Christ, somebody remembers Tribe 8...
A lot of people read it. Sadly not nearly as many played it.
So very true, we never got farther than the first session...
Quote from: econobus;884217So when for example an Altaic "animist" undertakes a sky journey through nine to twelve celestial realms, it means . . . ?
False equivalency. Otherworlds are not spirit worlds. Spirits are the souls of things that exist in our world.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;884223What do you want to do with it btw? Some sort of paranormal investigation game?
Yes, I'm investigating the potential of the Gumshoe system for a fixed-length campaign, but I'm not sure if I want to use one of the existing settings like Mutant City Blues.
I want my game to have 'powerz' available to the players and I need some kind of nonhuman intelligence in the setting because that's how I roll. Some sort of spirit world to interact with could hit two birds with one stone.
Another option is Palladium's Nightspawn/Nightbane and the Nightlands dimension. It is more of a "nightmare" dimension but for an horror oriented campaign, it could work.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;884332I want my game to have 'powerz' available to the players and I need some kind of nonhuman intelligence in the setting because that's how I roll. Some sort of spirit world to interact with could hit two birds with one stone.
Unknown Armies (http://ua.johntynes.com/content_comments.php?id=P325_0_3_0), FTW.
Wraith: The Oblivion: (1st ed?) This had a pretty nifty spirit world with a whole society and culture if the dead.
d20 Ghostwalk: Heard some good things about it but never seen it so cant say from personal experience how well it played off or not. Sounds like it was similar approach as Council of Wyrms or the BECMI Creature series? PCs as ghosts/undead?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;884201Shamanism was made up by anthropologists, neopagans and con artists who misappropriate other cultures. The spirit world is and always has been a metaphorical world, like the criminal underworld, and not a literal otherworld like Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Underworld or Fairyland.
That's far from true, even though the opposite of this wouldn't be absolutely true either.
Between the Shadows sourcebook for Nightbane contains pretty decent write-ups for the Dream world and the Astral Plane, along with methods of manipulating each. Even if you take out all the crunch, it is a goldmine for ideas.
There's the Dreamlands from CoC, but I never actually really liked those much as an actual astral/dream plane. Just doesn't fit my experiences, I guess.
Pretty decent as a weird fantasy setting, though.
Yes, I'm still reading these suggestions by the way.
I think Chaosium's RuneQuest (and the Nomad Gods board game) did a fine job, matching many an archaic conception. There are spirits of disease, ancestral spirits, patron spirits of tribes and places, and greater gods. Beyond the earthly realm of mortals -- conceived in ancient terms, as a plane floating on the Deep -- is the domain of unearthly powers. Besides heroes being able to reach that simply by faring far enough over the land, or perhaps through portals joining the interior, shamans can withdraw their spirits from their bodies wherever those may be.
Dragons are sort of like shamans in reverse: Their "substantial" forms that men see striding the earth or flying through the sky are but the dreams of slumbering Dragons.
The HeroQuest line, with a notably different rules set (and a different approach to play emphasized more over the years), has published more details of Glorantha's supernal world, its parts and their relation to the primordial fundament "prior to" the compromise of Time.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;883802Which games have especially interesting and well thought out spirit worlds?
What makes an effective 'gamable' spirit world?
I've always loved Exalted version of Hell (called Malfeas), and how demons interact with each other.
On the upper side you have the Yozis, all-mighty titants who built Creation but were imprisoned by the Gods and their Chosen. They are not just trapped in Hell, but their bodies
are Hell.
Each Yozi has multiple souls, for their spiritual essence is to powerful and complex to be contained within a single body. These are Third Circle Demons, the Lords of Hell.
But on turn, each Third Circle Demon is too powerful, so their souls are split into lesser demons as well, each expressing a part of their own personallity in a way. These are Second Circle Demons, lesser than their superiors but still quite powerful.
Finally you have First Circle Demons, the "spawn" of the Second Circle, not individuals but whole species.
I've always liked this and how demons interact with the world at large.