Quote from: Abyssal MawActually what it is, when Swine start losing arguments, they usually bring up a racial or political subtext and pretend they are being horribly lynched.

It's funny and sad!

Yeah, I guess your inabilty to read really is that bad. He was 1) not losing the argument and 2) pointing out that he's no more a member of the group you tried to derogatorily label him as then he is Japanese, and that trying to deride him as a "Forgy" is about as apt as trying to deride him as a "Gook."

Yes, I know you won't believe this because it would mean admitting your wrong and prejudiced, but that doesn't change the truthfulness of it.

You guys can´t be forgers. Forgers know that railroad is not what you are talking about.

A railroad leaves no choice, neither tactical (outcome of combat is scripted), nor strategically.

In a dungeon, your strategic choices are limited, by walls and doors. Your tactical choices on the other hand as well as the degrees of freedom are manifold in a dungeon. The outcome of the encounters isn´t scripted as it is in a railroad. Every room with some barrels, a trapdoor and goblins in it is a new tactical challenge. And it´s the actual game to face and overcome these challenges. How they are overcome is not scripted.
And most importantly: If the characters overcome the challenge isn´t scripted. That´s the heart of D&D: you can fail. Only the risk of failure makes "killing orcs" fun and meaningful. Otherwise it´s wankery. Therefore

dungeons = risky & fun
railroad = riskless wankery

Even the strategic choices become richer and richer as you raise through the levels: passwall, teleport etc.
Ususally in campaign games of dungeon crawls, the strategic choices are made about which dungeon to raid. Then it´s all about tactics again.

So stop shittalking. You either don´t know what you are talking about, or you are deliberately trolling.

Quote from: James McMurrayAre you really that incapable of reading?

Blakkie and I rarely agree, so when I come along and say he's completely right, it must be true.

A dungeon gives you a set sequence of events that will occur. You have a little bit of control by determining whether you go left or right first, but in the end there are challenges that must be overcome before you can get to your goal.

A plotline gives you a set sequence of events that will occur. You have a little bit of control by determining whether you talk to the mayor or the prostitute first*, but in the end there are challenges that must be overcome before you can get to your goal.

A dungeon is actually more railroady** as it has actual, physical walls. That doesn't make it bad. If it did, dungeon adventures would have died out long ago instead of being the staple of the hobby. It's actually a good thing because it gives an excellent illusion of choice while still granting the DM complete control of what order the major events must happen in.

* This is just an example. Not every plotline needs a mayor and a prostitute.

** Unless your party has enough money and engineering know-how to dismantle from above an underground complex of unknown location and indeterminate size.

Aww, James.  Now why you have to go and do that.  I DO respect you, so hearing you babble such silliness hurts me, deep down.

So the fact that it's a physical location in a finite space, makes it a railroad.  Automatically.  Once again, that's completely absurd, and by definition means everything's a fucking railroad.  :rolleyes:

The city I live in has a set number of roads and buildings, and a set number of people living in it.  Guess it must make all those games I played with friends set in it automatically railroaded too.  

You're stretching the term "railroad" past any point of usefulness by redefining it to apply to such utterly vague and simplistic features.  A "railroaded" game is one where the GM is essentially, by whatever means necessary, is forcign you down a specific linear path.  I thought everyone understood this definition, but I guess you know what they say about when you assume . . .

Both you, and blakkie, however, are suggesting that there exist only two poles, infinite choice, and no choice, with no intermediate approaches.  Because you've redefined those intermediate choices as meaning there's no choice at all.

The result is that pretty much, for me not to be railroading my players in a given game, all I as a GM can really do in a given cirumstance is start the game by leaning back in my chair and going "Well, what do you all want to do?"

No pre-game world building, setting up even the most basic of structures or environments.  No limitations on character types, hell, can't really even use a system at this point.  THose are all constraints, and thus railroading.  

It's complete silliness.

Quote from: James McMurrayA dungeon gives you a set sequence of events that will occur. You have a little bit of control by determining whether you go left or right first, but in the end there are challenges that must be overcome before you can get to your goal.

I fundamentally disagree with this part. We aren't describing either a sequence here, or an event, or even a goal.  It is perfectly acceptable to not even include a goal, or to include multiple non-exclusive goals. Often, the players set their own goals. You can have a dungeon with a magic sword in one place, a weird fountain in another, and a supervillian in another, and the players may decide they're only coming to your dungeon because they want to expand their map.  No goals= no railroad. Multiple goals=no railroad.

In your case I think your'e talking about the physical linkages between areas, and how those can be manipulated to go in only one or two directions. I can only refer you back to Stuart's link up above about Megadungeons. Even if you disagree with both of us, you should check that out.

On real railroads, I have plenty of experience with this as well, and I can tell you- it's totally different. I just got back from Tryptofantasy (an RPGA event in Silver Spring, MD). Many (most?) Living Greyhawk events are total railroads. Plot event 1 (sometimes but not always an encounter) leads to an npc who usually gives you a choice of plot events 2 and 2A. No matter how that one turns out, usually there's a guy there at the end who will send you to either 3 or 3A. No matter how 3 or 3A turns out, you always end up at plot event 4 at the end.  THAT is a railroad. And by the way? Here's the final clue: while you may get small tactical maps, you don't ever get a map with encounters that you can wander around on and explore. The point of  Living Greyhawk events are they are over, (reaching a 'story conclusion style ending')  in 4 hours.

These are fun, by the way, but you pretty much go in knowing that your party will not be in charge of the pacing of the adventure, where you go or what you will be doing.

Quote from: James McMurrayYeah, I guess your inabilty to read really is that bad. He was 1) not losing the argument and 2) pointing out that he's no more a member of the group you tried to derogatorily label him as then he is Japanese, and that trying to deride him as a "Forgy" is about as apt as trying to deride him as a "Gook."

Yes, I know you won't believe this because it would mean admitting your wrong and prejudiced, but that doesn't change the truthfulness of it.

Ding! 5 cents!

Ah, ok. I get it now. We're talking about different levels of railroading. Your positions are that unless every last action is scripted and the outcome certain it isn't railroading. Blakkie and I are saying that it's possible to railroad without having a fully formed script. We'll have to agree to disagree it looks like, since we can't agree on a definition for discussion.

QuoteDing! 5 cents!

Dude, you get paid every time someone points out you're an idiot? Sweet!

Quote from: James McMurrayAh, ok. I get it now. We're talking about different levels of railroading. Your positions are that unless every last action is scripted and the outcome certain it isn't railroading. Blakkie and I are saying that it's possible to railroad without having a fully formed script. We'll have to agree to disagree it looks like, since we can't agree on a definition for discussion.



Dude, you get paid every time someone points out you're an idiot? Sweet!

Well, it comes from this: I realized I saw a lot of this sort of thing, and I was like "Man, if I had a nickel for everytime I saw some someone trying to play the race-victim card when we're talking about roleplaying games..."

So, in a sense I got paid when you are an idiot. But only about this specific topic. Other forms of idiocy you may perform will not benefit me in any way. So fire away!

In other news, I have come to the conclusion that you guys don't actually have an honest argument. Which is too bad.

Quote from: James McMurrayAh, ok. I get it now. We're talking about different levels of railroading. Your positions are that unless every last action is scripted and the outcome certain it isn't railroading. Blakkie and I are saying that it's possible to railroad without having a fully formed script. We'll have to agree to disagree it looks like, since we can't agree on a definition for discussion.



Dude, you get paid every time someone points out you're an idiot? Sweet!

QuoteRailroading
A style of GMing in which the GM has only one specific plot line in mind, and forces the players to follow that plot regardless of whether they want to do so. From an analogy to a railroad, which constrains the train to one specific route. Sometimes referred to as The D&M Railroad (by reference to numerous real-world railroads, but especially the B&O Railroad referenced in the game Monopoly).

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/RPG_Lexica:PQR

This is what I'm talking about when I speak of railroading.  This is how I have heard the term defined by basically everyone for the last ten years.

And nice attempt to redifine even what I'M saying.  Nowhere did I say anything about scripting specific actions.

Sorry, sorry. I seem to have gotten my posters mixed up. Sorry. I'll just go sit down then, carry on.

Maw: Yeah, I read that the first time you posted it. It was stupid. To try and blame the other guy when you jump to a stereotype is idiotic. to then somehow try to make that a point in your favor doubly so.

J Arcane: I've been in situations where I had a couple of choices, but all roads lead to the same destination. To me that's railroading, and I honestly don't care what a wiki says. Like I said: agree to disagree.

Wow. This thread sure got completely retarded.

Quote from: James McMurrayMaw: Yeah, I read that the first time you posted it. It was stupid. To try and blame the other guy when you jump to a stereotype is idiotic. to then somehow try to make that a point in your favor doubly so.

J Arcane: I've been in situations where I had a couple of choices, but all roads lead to the same destination. To me that's railroading, and I honestly don't care what a wiki says. Like I said: agree to disagree.

Cool.  Then from now on, I'm gonna start redefining accepted terms myself!  From now on, the term cake, shall also refer to pie, because they are both sweet dessert food.  

Now excuse me, I'm off to go get a slice of pumpkin cake.

Quote from: YamoWow. This thread sure got completely retarded.

Yes.

Someone actually played the race card out of nowhere in reference to forge-goers here...  :confused:

And no, sorry...  a dungeon isn't a railroad.  I have no fucking idea what you people are talking about.  Railroading is about blocking PC actions.  A fucking backdrop doesn't do that.

QuoteAnd no, sorry... a dungeon isn't a railroad. I have no fucking idea what you people are talking about. Railroading is about blocking PC actions. A fucking backdrop doesn't do that.

Exactly.  Thank you, for summing up what I've been trying to get at, better than I could apparently.

Quote from: RedFoxAnd no, sorry...  a dungeon isn't a railroad.  I have no fucking idea what you people are talking about.  Railroading is about blocking PC actions.  A fucking backdrop doesn't do that.

You are right. My use of the word railroady is inaccurate. What I meant was the choices the pcs make in dungeons are naturally limited by their enviroment. Which is not railroady. My bad.

Regards,
David R