Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"gook and nip"?

Whazzat?

Please check your SWINE Handbook page 345, paragraph 4, subparagraph iii.c.  Derogatory slang for people from Asian in general for the former (from them all speaking "gobblity-gook"), and specifically from Japan for the latter (shortened form of "Nippon", which is as to Japan as "Deucheland" is to Germany).

Quote from: blakkieWith not so sutble, yet generally accepted subtext of "go this way". It is what it does. I'm not saying it can't be fun to play. But it is what it is.

Subtext ain't the same as force.

Quote from: blakkieYah, the choice of go down the path that was laid out. Or don't.  That's real freedom. Take it or lump it.

Some times with an option #2 for parts of the path to take it or lump it. Throw off the shackles! :eek:

Oh yes "classic" indeed, that was kinda my point. First the long logic stretch to link me to the "Forge", and then mixing in some sort of grade school twist to hammer home that derogatory name calling. :rolleyes:  

Well, no. You don't have to have ever even seen the Forge to be part of the crap, as you've ably proven. Your'e Luke Crane's largest fan! Whatever. The point is you guys are so. damn. predictable. I can't give you any points for being totally fucking mediocre. Sorry. Seriously. I am so very sorry.

IN ANY CASE:

1) Your'e not actually describing railroading.

The railroad is where players don't have a choice of what to do next, where to go, or when things happen. Rairoading describes plot and sequencing.

2) Dungeons don't "marshall" characters anywhere.

Dungeons are self-paced. The player group makes all the choices, including, when to leave, or if they even go in. They also decide how to handle each encounter, and even if they want to skip it.

3) Dungeons are just a map of encounters and locations.  

In fact, you can safely drop the word dungeon and just call it "an explorable area". It doesn't have to be underground, and it doesn't have to have monsters or hostile encounters. As long as there's a map with keyed encounters, then players are in complete control of the pacing and direction.  

Ok, so here we have an area with a whole bunch of encounters. Not plot events, not timed occurrences or preset destination pieces. Just a map with encounters.

Now, I can hear some guys squeaking now "But dungeons  can be linear in the sense that the physical linkages between rooms can be arranged." However, listen up (any other swine reading this should prick up their little porky ears too): the classic dungeons that you've all grown to fear and loathe aren't ever linear. If you have three or four encounters in a row, with no other options, thats called a 'multi-part encounter'. It can be part of a dungeon (because dungeons are just encounters on a map), but it is not actually a dungeon. Even if it's underground and has giant spiders and a magic fucking sword at the end.

Encounter on a map = player paced adventure.

But that's all dungeons are: encounters keyed to a map. Everyone knows this.

It's often derided as a primitive technique, because thats' all it fucking is, and you can't make it into a poorly written college short story with a moral if you can't manipulate the plot.
 Instead, with dungeons.. you usually get something that looks like Ray Harryhausen's 7th Voyage of Sinbad. D&D adventures are about Guys that Go Places and Do Stuff. So, uh.. Stick that in your burning wheel and spin it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenSubtext ain't the same as force.

Immovable Objects are quite similar to Irresistable Force, and when you are puny they amount to the same thing.  If you pull the roof off the dungeon it tends to break.....if you could pull the roof off the dungeon.  Try it some time you've got a session to waste.

Quote from: blakkiePlease check your SWINE Handbook page 345, paragraph 4, subparagraph iii.c.  Derogatory slang for people from Asian in general for the former (from them all speaking "gobblity-gook"), and specifically from Japan for the latter (shortened form of "Nippon", which is as to Japan as "Deucheland" is to Germany).

Actually what it is, when Swine start losing arguments, they usually bring up a racial or political subtext and pretend they are being horribly lynched.

It's funny and sad!

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's often derided as a primitive technique, because thats' all it fucking is, and you can't make it into a poorly written college short stopry with a moral if you can't manipulate the plot.

Dude.

You can totally manipulate a "dungeon as plot".

This sounds stupid, but still.  If the plot is (lame-ass example):

• Introduction: Players enter dungeon.
• Rising action: Player fight bigger and bigger monsters.
• Climax: Players fight biggest monster.
• Denoument: Shiny treasure!
• Moral: Killing unnatural creatures leads to reward.

Then the players can manipulate it as easily as turning around.  Or change the moral just by sneaking past shit instead of fighting it.

Quote from: blakkie.....if you could pull the roof off the dungeon.  Try it some time you've got a session to waste.

We, uh, did.

I was the Neutral Evil (greedy) Dwarf.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, no. You don't have to have ever even seen the Forge to be part of the crap, as you've ably proven. Your'e Luke Crane's largest fan!

Er, not really. Not even close.

QuoteWhatever.

Juniorhighstick.

QuoteThe point is you guys are so. damn. predictable. I can't give you any points for being totally fucking mediocre. Sorry. Seriously. I am so very sorry.

Yes, "us guys". Way to show you aren't just slapping on some arbitrary labels.

Quote1) Your'e not actually describing railroading.

The railroad is where players don't have a choice of what to do next, where to go, or when things happen. Rairoading describes plot and sequencing.

Which the dungeon does tend to dictate in many ways. Sometimes some of them have some predetermined branches, it is relatively rare for a commercial one to have zero branches, but they are limited branchs. Generally with not a hell of a lot to do outside open door #1 or door #2 or go back to that branch 3 rooms back to turn right instead of left.

Quote2) Dungeons don't "marshall" characters anywhere.

Dungeons are self-paced. The player group makes all the choices, including, when to leave, or if they even go in. They also decide how to handle each encounter, and even if they want to skip it.

Skip it? If you "skip" it you skip one or more paths, sometimes the majority if not all of the dungeon. Take it or lump it.......unless you have a powerful character that can walk through walls....those characters finding themselves in outside adventures. What do you think is behind the traditional lack of very high level dungeons (barring magic walls)?

Quote3) Dungeons are just a map of encounters and locations.  

With a limited number of predetermined paths.

In fact, you can safely drop the word dungeon and just call it "an explorable area". It doesn't have to be underground, and it doesn't have to have monsters or hostile encounters. As long as there's a map with keyed encounters, then players are in completel control of the pacing and direction.  

Ok, so here we have an area with a whole bunch of encounters. Not plot events, not timed occurrences or preset destination pieces. Just a map with encounters.

Now, I can hear some guys squeaking now "But dungeons  can be linear in the sense that the physical linkages between rooms can be arranged." However, listen up (any other swine reading this should prick up their little porky ears too): the classic dungeons that you've all grown to fear and loathe aren't ever linear. If you have three or four encounters in a row, with no other options, thats called a 'multi-part encounter'. It can be part of a dungeon (because dungeons are just encounters on a map), but it is not actually a dungeon. Even if it's underground and has giant spiders and a magic fucking sword at the end.

QuoteEncounter on a map = player paced adventure.

Forward and backward on the railway track. *shrug* I'm pretty sure that's where this kicked off from, no?

QuoteBut that's all dungeons are: encounters keyed to a map. Everyone knows this. It's often derided as a primitive technique, because thats' all it fucking is...

Exactly. It is what it is. A tool that provides/supplies limited flexibility in possible paths and encounter orders (with the occasional random/grudge monsters in some situations). Which isn't the end of the world, nor the be-all-end-all. Christ, it's like an echo in here. :pundit:

This thread is :kjtw: my brain.

Thanks guys. I'm pretty sure I'm measurably dumber for having read this entire thread. Especially the last couple of pages.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWe, uh, did.

I was the Neutral Evil (greedy) Dwarf.

LOL, that's funny. Do tell more, what kind of "roof" and how was it removed?  What was inside (for things that fight back) and how did you know where to remove it from? Or was this a building?

P.S. How much did you skip over? EDIT: Oh, and what and was the party power level?  I guess you should specifiy system with that, although I'm assuming something along the D20 lines given you are the author of Perfect20.

Quote from: Christmas ApeThis thread is :kjtw: my brain.

Thanks guys. I'm pretty sure I'm measurably dumber for having read this entire thread. Especially the last couple of pages.

Sorry, you should have asked and I would have saved you the reading by explaining that it is a bunch of text amounting to "Nah-uh blakkie it isn't what you said, it is [what I said]". :eyecrazy: :emot-sigh:  Now only Levi can save the thread by entertaining us with an amusing story!

Quote from: blakkieLOL, that's funny. Do tell more, what kind of "roof" and how was it removed?  What was inside (for things that fight back) and how did you know where to remove it from? Or was this a building?

P.S. How much did you skip over?

At about level 3 in a game, we heard about a half-buried old monastery full of ancient relics.  Populated by a tribe of gnolls.  We sat down, and basically said, "Y'know, fuck this.  Let's take the bitch apart.  We have money to burn; we want the magic shit."

So we hired pretty much half the town.  We didn't walk the dungeon.  We invaded it, dissassembled it, massacred it, and took it's crap.  And then we called in the local merchants.  And sold them the finished stones.  When we left, three sessions later and far, far richer, we left behind a dirt pit.

Our DM loved the hell out of this.

Dungeons are fine.  DMs that can't imagine that you would do anything but go along with the crap they've laid out - that sucks.  And, more than sucking, it's not how the game has long been played.  People have been doing weird, creative crap in and around dungeons and D&D in general since the very beginning.

Quote from: blakkieExactly. It is what it is. A tool that provides/supplies limited flexibility in possible paths and encounter orders (with the occasional random/grudge monsters in some situations). Which isn't the end of the world, nor the be-all-end-all. Christ, it's like an echo in here. :pundit:

Your'e entire argument amounts to "well, pretty much the  consensus is that this railroading-thing is bad. SO I'll just use that word to describe an entire structure I don't actually understand or deal with that often."
 
High-level doesn't matter. You can take away all the dungeon walls (and thus not have to worry who can fly or walk through walls) and it's still the same thing. We're still only talking about encounters on a map. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a dungeon. It could be a university, or a big open park. Or a city block. Or whatever. Encounters on a map. Thats it.

And of course it's not the be-all/end-all. But it is extremely reliable and easy to handle, for even the most neophyte of GMs.

My point is, the thing it totally isn't, is railroading.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYour'e entire argument amounts to "well, pretty much the  consensus is that this railroading-thing is bad. SO I'll just use that word to describe an entire structure I don't actually understand or deal with that often."

Are you really that incapable of reading?

Blakkie and I rarely agree, so when I come along and say he's completely right, it must be true.

A dungeon gives you a set sequence of events that will occur. You have a little bit of control by determining whether you go left or right first, but in the end there are challenges that must be overcome before you can get to your goal.

A plotline gives you a set sequence of events that will occur. You have a little bit of control by determining whether you talk to the mayor or the prostitute first*, but in the end there are challenges that must be overcome before you can get to your goal.

A dungeon is actually more railroady** as it has actual, physical walls. That doesn't make it bad. If it did, dungeon adventures would have died out long ago instead of being the staple of the hobby. It's actually a good thing because it gives an excellent illusion of choice while still granting the DM complete control of what order the major events must happen in.

* This is just an example. Not every plotline needs a mayor and a prostitute.

** Unless your party has enough money and engineering know-how to dismantle from above an underground complex of unknown location and indeterminate size.

Quote from: Christmas ApeThis thread is :kjtw: my brain.

Thanks guys. I'm pretty sure I'm measurably dumber for having read this entire thread. Especially the last couple of pages.

I apologize.  Usually I'm smart enough to leave the little toad alone, but I was bored last night.

Quote from: blakkieSo I'm suppose to discuss every single dungeon that ever existed to "prove" that what you purport exists doesn't?

Well, no actually.  You aren't, because you can't.  You can't prove a damn word of your idiotic stereotyping.  You're just here to stir up shit, and play to Pundit's own stereotypes by doing your duty to trash on a traditional gaming structure.  You're a troll.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou're entire argument amounts to "well, pretty much the consensus is that this railroading-thing is bad. SO I'll just use that word to describe an entire structure I don't actually understand or deal with that often."

Bingo.  Hit the nail right on the head, with great force.