Quote from: J ArcaneBy your logic, the WORLD is railroaded, because it's a finite space, and you could eventually explore all of it.

:rolleyes: Sure, if it was in any sense predetermined and it had a noticable limited number of paths and locations in it.

So what example would you give of a dungeon that avoids this quite limited scope? Do you actually create rooms based on player choices? Do you create monsters/NPCs based on player choices? Do features appear based on results of a character skill roll? If they decide to turn left in the next room will there always be way to go down? Or will they need to burn through that Passwall wand to blaze a route to go....where?

EDIT: Yes, you can improve a dungeon a bit having a couple of paths and having some semi-intellegent creatures and some flexibility in what goals you can accomplish. But I've never actually seen a dungeon "designed" to have any sizable flexibility in it's layout.  As a result usually the high-end spells really play havoc with dungeon designs without incomporating some heavy [occationally handwaving levels of] magic, or putting it on another plane, or something really wierd to keep the natural mobility of powerful characters from just bypassing huge tracts of the dungeon. It's like trying to get God to run a maze for a chunk of cheeze at the end.  The 'dungeon' part of the dungeon becomes irrelavent and basically ignored.....boom, there you are. The whole thing of the dungeon is that it is one long bottle neck front to back......otherwise you'd just walk around it or to whereever in it you want to be. Wouldn't you?

Quote from: blakkie:rolleyes: Sure, if it was in any sense predetermined and it had a noticable limited number of paths and locations in it.

So what example would you give of a dungeon that avoids this quite limited scope? Do you actually create rooms based on player choices? Do you create monsters/NPCs based on player choices? Do features appear based on results of a character skill roll? If they decide to turn left in the next room will there always be way to go down? Or will they need to burn through that Passwall wand to blaze a route to go....where?

Such leading questions you posit.  So unless I wander into the realm of letting the players create everything that you Forgesticks are so fond of, it's not "true freedom" right?  I can't just set up a large and expansive area and let the players explore it at their whims?

Quote from: J ArcaneSuch leading questions you posit.

Yes, leading posits such as asking for an example dungeon.

Quote....Forgesticks....

What next. You're going to call my pasty white [EDIT:never have posted at The Forge, only a couple of times read anything there] ass Japanese because I occationally eat sushi. :rolleyes: EDIT: Sorry, I guess the term would be "gook" or maybe "nip" to keep with the derogatory name calling motif.

QuoteI can't just set up a large and expansive area and let the players explore it at their whims?

That's the thing about dungeons. They keep you bottled up. They restrict movement to a relatively small number of paths. To get there, whereever there is, you have to go past something. Some predetermined thing is in the way (or on occation you'll have a couple of different paths).

QuoteThat's the thing about dungeons. They keep you bottled up. They restrict movement to a relatively small number of paths. To get there, whereever there is, you have to go past something. Some predetermined thing is in the way (or on occation you'll have a couple of different paths).

The State of Oregon is divided down the center by a large mountain range.  There are only about 4 passes where one can get over said mountains by car.  Does that mean the State of Oregon is railroad-y?

Your attitude is fucking absurd in the extreme.  A remarkably ironic balance between reductio ad absurdum and the excluded middle.  Everything is either railroaded, or entirely player directed, with nothing in between.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe State of Oregon is divided down the center by a large mountain range.  There are only about 4 passes where one can get over said mountains by car.  Does that mean the State of Oregon is railroad-y?

If NoCal and Washington built huge walls, and another wall around the seashore, and all the planes were removed, and I had to drive a vehicle on a road to the other side, or there was a ceiling put in at an altitude that only left those four passes as the places wear there wasn't miles of rock to go through....er, yeah I guess. :banghead:

QuoteYour attitude is fucking absurd in the extreme. A remarkably ironic balance between reductio ad absurdum and the excluded middle.  Everything is either railroaded, or entirely player directed, with nothing in between.

:rolleyes: I didn't say that at all. :banghead:

QuoteI didn't say that at all.

Then what's with all the loaded questions and bogus exaggerated descriptions of dungeon design?  

Every thing in this thread you've posted is describing them as being entirely linear, or with a tiny number of options, as if that's the only way in the world to design a dungeon.  And when pressed as to this absurdity, you start babbling about how if the character's actions don't magically change the entire layout of the dungeon, then it's still railroaded.

Quote from: J ArcaneThen what's with all the loaded questions and bogus exaggerated descriptions of dungeon design?

Exaggerated descriptions? Sorry, that was you Mr. Oregon.

QuoteEvery thing in this thread you've posted is describing them as being entirely linear, or with a tiny number of options, as if that's the only way in the world to design a dungeon.  And when pressed as to this absurdity, you start babbling about how if the character's actions don't magically change the entire layout of the dungeon, then it's still railroaded.

Do you not understand the meaning of "example"?  Name some commercial package and I'll see if I can locate it at the FLGS to peruse.  Have something of you own? Try post up the notes and map and such and I'll read it. Nowhere to host the files? Just ask and I'll email you my hotmail account addy so you can send it there.

Quote from: blakkieExaggerated descriptions? Sorry, that was you Mr. Oregon.

Do you not understand the meaning of "example"?  Name some commercial package and I'll see if I can locate it at the FLGS to peruse.  Have something of you own? Try post up the notes and map and such and I'll read it. Nowhere to host the files? Just ask and I'll email you my hotmail account addy so you can send it there.

The burden of proof is on the guy making absurd blanket statements.  You start giving me hard evidence that there really is no such thing as a non-railroaded dungeon, and I'll stop questioning your sanity and intelligence.

I've always found "explore and loot" dungeons to be pretty railroady. I don't normally run dungeon adventures, but when I do, it's more of the bad guys have made this abandoned/submerged castle their hideout. There are multiple points of entry (for the pcs to choose form) most of the "dungeon" is barren, there are no random encounters and the few fell beasts that are in residence are either killed or avoided. Needless to say, there is little to no treause.

Same with abandoned/lost cities. Strange creatures do inhabit them, but they normally nest or roam about. These places are a rich source of lost lore (magical or otherwise) but getting it is hard. The creatures that normally inhabit these places although solitary are pretty deadly - there is a reason few return from places such as these. Better to sneak around and try to steal, the item than engage head on.

I think when you are running adventures in an enclosed space, your choices (players) are pretty limited.

Regards,
David R

Damn...

This argument is stupid.

In a dungeon-based adventure, characters have assumed goals.  The assumption that they have these goals (money, acts that bring XP) is very strong.

Likewise there are assumed methods (combat, stealth, puzzle-solving).  The assumption that they will always use this methods is very weak.

A DM that tries to unreasonably control or enforce those methods is generally considered to be railroading.  If the players decide to grab some big chains outside and rip the fucking roof off the place while standing by outside with peasant archers, and having fun, it's all good, and it's not "wrong" play for a D&D group to do so.

A DM that's just rolling along with players that follow the assumed methods is, uh, just rolling along.  Lookathat.

Not all dungeons are railroady.

Here's something to review: MegaDungeon Mapping

* Linear
* Linear with Sidetracks
* Branching
* Circular

I tend to think of dungeons as pretty much the opposite of railroad. It's area exploration--players are in complete control of pacing, when to leave, and how to go about it.

Even a casual observer will note certain patterns- a planning-strategizing pattern before hitting a room, a post-action assessment where players talk about the encounter and go over where they stand resourcewise..

ALL of that stuff is because they are in charge of pacing and where to go.

Also: gook and nip = classic swine argument playbook! I think last time I said something like "If I had a nickel everytime I saw that.." now I'm going to keep count. So far, thats 25 cents, if we count gook and nip seperately.

Quote from: Abyssal MawALL of that stuff is because they are in charge of pacing and where to go.

Yah, the choice of go down the path that was laid out. Or don't.  That's real freedom. Take it or lump it.

Some times with an option #2 for parts of the path to take it or lump it. Throw off the shackles! :eek:

Quote from: Abyssal MawAlso: gook and nip = classic swine argument playbook! I think last time I said something like "If I had a nickel everytime I saw that.." now I'm going to keep count. So far, thats 25 cents, if we count gook and nip seperately.

Oh yes "classic" indeed, that was kinda my point. First the long logic stretch to link me to the "Forge", and then mixing in some sort of grade school twist to hammer home that derogatory name calling. :rolleyes:  

Quote from: StuartNot all dungeons are railroady.

Here's something to review: MegaDungeon Mapping

* Linear
* Linear with Sidetracks
* Branching
* Circular

Yeah, exactly.  The D model is the one that shows any variation in path at all. At least after going through the first 3 pages it pretty much is the same thing. Is there anything of note past that? If so please link directly, thanks.
Where you can come at some points more than one way.  Like I said earlier....

QuoteYes, you can improve a dungeon a bit having a couple of paths and having some semi-intellegent creatures and some flexibility in what goals you can accomplish.

But in the end the dungeon marshalls the characters around, keeps them from wandering to far away. With not so sutble, yet generally accepted subtext of "go this way". It is what it does. I'm not saying it can't be fun to play. But it is what it is.

Quote from: Abyssal Mawgook and nip = classic swine argument playbook!

"gook and nip"?

Whazzat?

Quote from: J ArcaneThe burden of proof is on the guy making absurd blanket statements.  You start giving me hard evidence that there really is no such thing as a non-railroaded dungeon, and I'll stop questioning your sanity and intelligence.

Nice!  So I'm suppose to discuss every single dungeon that ever existed to "prove" that what you purport exists doesn't? I mean you know something exists, but you just won't say where? That's so Gradeschoolstick of you. :win: :rimshot: