Ah, but while the DMG says 'give XP for obstacles, even if you don't kill the monster,' it's distressingly light on any substantial advice on how to do that. At least for many DMs.

And given the design of the rest of the system, I argue that there is a strong counter-message of 'it only counts if you fight.'

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this on. I don't see where having most of the game aimed at fighting (because that's what most gamers like to do and it sells) negates a straightforward message of GM advice. YMMV.

Quote from: WillAh, but while the DMG says 'give XP for obstacles, even if you don't kill the monster,' it's distressingly light on any substantial advice on how to do that. At least for many DMs.

And given the design of the rest of the system, I argue that there is a strong counter-message of 'it only counts if you fight.'

XP for an encounter is rewarded based on the CR, whether it's a trap, a lock, or a monster.  You get XP for defeating that CR regardless of how you do it:  If the threat is dealt with, and passed on, you get XP.

Whether that means you snuck by it into the next room, cause the ceiling to fall on it's head, or stabbed it in the eye, it doesn't matter.  You still get the XP, that's the rules, and that's generally how my group has handled it.

QuoteAnyway, yes dungeons are pretty much on rails. Even if you let the players have full run of the throttle (which can actually lead to worse experiences) it is still forward and back on the tracks. *shrug* Good, bad, it is what it is.

By your logic, the WORLD is railroaded, because it's a finite space, and you could eventually explore all of it.

A well designed dungeon allows for a very open approach to how to solve and explore it.  That's just the way it is.

J Arcane: correct.

Quote from: James McMurrayNope. Different target audiences.

Yeah, one wants to explore and have a real effect, the other wants to be shephereded through a linear series of preplanned scenes. Like I said, incompatible.

The key distinction is that the advice I excerpted above tells the GM to subvert and nullify PC input, in the interest of the story. When I suspect such is happening as a player, I stop caring; I can just do whatever and know it's going to lead to the next stop on the tour.

I've never taken much interest in packaged scenarios, but just for reference, a couple of non-dungeon scenarios for Dragonquest did not work this way; instead they presented locations and personalities in conflict. (Blade of Allectus and Camp of Allah-Akbar.) For that matter a lot of Forge GMing advice goes along this route--one area that I think they tend to get it right.

You're preaching to the choir. But there are people that like that sort of thing. and given how many modules have sold since the game's creation I'd say there's a lot of them. If you don't like it, by all means don't do it. But your way is not the only way.

Dude, can we cut out the platitudes? My way is not the only way? I frickin' said that way upthread.

As I see it, this thread started by Sett is coming from an "anti-story" perspective. (You know what I mean.) A perfectly valid perspective. And it's being solidified by pointing out the "story stuff" that gets in the way.

Quote from: blakkieThere's this rpg.net quote I've seen that goes roughly like "People don't mind railroading as long as the view from the carriage is great and the destination is coolsvile." Both of which are subjective I suppose.

I certainly feel that way. Usually if the journey and destination are cool, I don't even notice that it is a railroad. Of course if its not particularly cool and I notice the tracks I start to feel constrained and annoyed.

Sorry, that's the impression I was getting.

Ok, you get the XP for sneaking past the monster. What about the treasure?

Quote from: WillOk, you get the XP for sneaking past the monster. What about the treasure?

Huh?  You get the treasure, if you get the treasure.  

Unless you run your games MMO style or something, and the enemies all drop it when they die.

Bunch of kobolds in a room with +1 weapons, there's a chest at their feet.

Sneak past? You don't get the +1 weapons, the chest, the secret gem in kobold #2's pocket, etc etc.

If you're clever, you don't get the candy.

Now, mind you, I fully realize there are ways to deal with these things. I, for example, separated out treasure and XP from specific per-monster/encounter stuff. I don't like the accounting. I'd rather base such things on the overall arc of the story/adventure (finish the adventure, you gain a level and the appropriate equipment).

Well, now you guys are specifically talking about fitting things to D&D's experience system, D&D 3 to be exact. In earlier versions, where treasure=XP, there's a more "natural" incentive to bypass obstacles using wit, and less of a need to assign XP at all for traps and the like. Then when you give XP for accomplishing missions, or just for showing up, or as a byproduct of using skills and training (RQ, Harnmaster, BW, etc.) or for doing character related stuff (BW, TSoY)...well, that changes things again.

Quote from: WillBunch of kobolds in a room with +1 weapons, there's a chest at their feet.

Sneak past? You don't get the +1 weapons, the chest, the secret gem in kobold #2's pocket, etc etc.

If you're clever, you don't get the candy.

Now, mind you, I fully realize there are ways to deal with these things. I, for example, separated out treasure and XP from specific per-monster/encounter stuff. I don't like the accounting. I'd rather base such things on the overall arc of the story/adventure (finish the adventure, you gain a level and the appropriate equipment).

So don't stick the treasure in a spot where you can't get it without fighting, if you want the players to be able to get it without fighting.

There comes a point where common sense must enter into things.  You can't expect the game to hold your hand on everything, especially when you're talking about something the game doesn't specifically dictate in the first place.

Of course you don't get the treasure if you sneak past, but unless there's story reasons most players will use sneaking to get past the things they don't think they can handle. That room full of kobolds is likely to be attacked and killed unless there's a pressing reason not to (like a big gong in the middle of the room).