Take a deep breath.  I can't stop you from playing the way you enjoy.

QuoteSince when the fuck does improvising the whole game automatically mean the player's choices have no weight? What if said choices in fact affect whatever I pull out of my ass for the next part of the game? And where the fuck does ignoring the dice or anything like that enter into the very example you brought up and that I took issue with?

Are you reading my posts?

I said:
"If there is a choice between two or more options, they shouldn't all lead to the same result. Even if it's an improvised choice -- the GM should think up the results of door A and door B, and stick to it when the player's make their choice."

As for the dice -- I've found theRPGsite has been favouring these cross-thread discussions that are all overlapping.  My complaint with "Illusionism" is exactly the same as my complaint with "fudging" in another thread.  I think they commonly (but not always!) used by the same style of GM.

QuoteAll you described is a scenario I have both run myself, and played in countless times. No real notes, the GM just wings the whole thing. Nothing about fudging die rolls or anytihng like that. You seem pissed just because the GM didn't actually have any written notes. Boo fucking hoo.

Again, if you read my post you'd see that I said the guy had told us he was working from prepared notes, shuffled blank paper to trick us into thinking there were prepared notes, and that these prepared notes included a dungeon map.  

QuoteAnd you really need to learn ro read what the fuck you're spewing if you're that surprised by my reaction to your behavior. You honestly expect telling someone to go find another hobby is going to be taken lightly?

I honestly don't even know what you're talking about here?  Who told you to get another hobby?  :confused:

QuoteI honestly don't even know what you're talking about here? Who told you to get another hobby?

It takes a lot of damn gall do use the word "honestly" in a post that's so full of shit.

QuoteLike I said in another thread -- if you really want an improv / storytelling game, why not just play one? In all honesty, they're superior to traditional RPGs for that kind of thing.
       

Your words.  And fuck you, I'll play whatever the fuck hobby I like.

QuoteAnd fuck you, I'll play whatever the fuck hobby I like.

Well, we've come full circle on this thread.

Quote from: J ArcaneI feel a certain reasonableness in concluding that Stuart is not, in fact, a mind reader. Thus I am inclined to wonder how he would actually know that, given that all he stated the GM said was that he didn't actually have any notes. That doesn't automatically equate to "OMG U R LIAR ALL CHOICE IS MEANINGLESS" except perhaps in the mind of a hyberbolic 11 year old with no sense of perspective.

Sorry I didn't go into enough detail with the little story there...

I indeed asked him what the hell?  And his response was that he was totally making the whole thing up as we went along.  That's why we were able to find the path directly through the choice of scores of different doors and end up moving directly from the dungeon entrance to the throne room (or whatever the hell) without any dead ends, or wrong turns.  He did this because he thought that if we all just made stuff up, we wouldn't need to waste time planning the game ahead of time, or waste money buying modules.

Ok, now J Arcane... seriously... take a deep breath... and consider how funny this is:  "I feel a certain reasonableness in concluding that Stuart is not, in fact, a mind reader."

!!!

Ok.  Let's move on... and keep things good natured.

I'm fairly certain this is a massive misunderstanding.

QuoteOk, now J Arcane... seriously... take a deep breath... and consider how funny this is: "I feel a certain reasonableness in concluding that Stuart is not, in fact, a mind reader."

Even when I'm pissed, I always try to keep a good wit about me.  

I apologize for some of my vitriol, but really, what I'm seeing in this thread is basically you attacking the way I play, and then telling me I should go find another hobby.  Yes, the example of your kid GM was a bit beyond into real dishonesty, but by and large, "winging it" is such a massive portion of the way I GM, and here you are suggestign that it's fundamentally a bunch of lies.  I think you go to far.  You had one bad experience, and you now want to generalize against a large segment of the hobby because you got pissed off once when you were 11.

Perhaps you can understand why then, this does not sit well with me?

QuoteYour words. And fuck you, I'll play whatever the fuck hobby I like.

Are you mistaking me for this little guy? :pundit:

I certainly don't see playing a different game as an entirely different hobby.  And a game designed to support improv and storytelling will be better suited for... you know... improv and storytelling.

But whatever, you can play whatever game you want, however you want.  It doesn't matter to me.

Quote from: J ArcaneI apologize for some of my vitriol, but really, what I'm seeing in this thread is - *HuRk!*

Apology accepted... Captain J Arcane.

I  may be deluding myself but I think there's a difference between pure GM improv (whether or not the player is aware of exactly when and what the GM is improvising) and the sort of GM-led illusionism/railroading that we were talking about earlier in this thread.

Trying to put my finger on it is hard, though...

Quote from: StuartApology accepted... Captain J Arcane.

Strange, at first that image refused to resolve in my brain as a picture of Darth Vader standing over a dead guy. Instead I saw a guy in a weird kind of bathtub.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI  may be deluding myself but I think there's a difference between pure GM improv (whether or not the player is aware of exactly when and what the GM is improvising) and the sort of GM-led illusionism/railroading that we were talking about earlier in this thread.

Trying to put my finger on it is hard, though...

The disconnect that continues to confuse me is that Stuart said he had an enjoyable time playing the game.  It was only after, when he asked to "peek behind the curtain" that he got all upset about what had happened.

To me, what happens behind the curtain doesn't matter one whit when the gameplay is fun and exciting.

In the end, roleplaying is just making shit up anyway.

Quote from: RedFoxThe disconnect that continues to confuse me is that Stuart said he had an enjoyable time playing the game.  It was only after, when he asked to "peek behind the curtain" that he got all upset about what had happened.

To me, what happens behind the curtain doesn't matter one whit when the gameplay is fun and exciting.

In the end, roleplaying is just making shit up anyway.

I'm J Arcane, and I endorse this message.

Quote from: RedFoxThe disconnect that continues to confuse me is that Stuart said he had an enjoyable time playing the game. It was only after, when he asked to "peek behind the curtain" that he got all upset about what had happened.

Really?  Even after the Billy the baseball player and Superstar USA link?

Let me try again... if your enjoyment from the game is based in large part on feeling satisfied about having played the game well -- but then you find out it was contrived to let you win, you lose that sense of satisfaction.  This may not be applicable to all players -- but it is for me.  And I think for some other people on this site.  And certainly a lot of people who more-or-less got out of RPGs and into Boardgames as they got older.

Quote from: RedFoxThe disconnect that continues to confuse me is that Stuart said he had an enjoyable time playing the game. It was only after, when he asked to "peek behind the curtain" that he got all upset about what had happened.

To me, what happens behind the curtain doesn't matter one whit when the gameplay is fun and exciting.

In the end, roleplaying is just making shit up anyway.

Yes, but RedFox, didn't you say earlier that you enjoyed an improvised game like that, but only because you didn't know it had been improvised? Why's that?

Quote from: StuartReally?  Even after the Billy the baseball player and Superstar USA link?

Let me try again... if your enjoyment from the game is based in large part on feeling satisfied about having played the game well -- but then you find out it was contrived to let you win, you lose that sense of satisfaction.  This may not be applicable to all players -- but it is for me.  And I think for some other people on this site.  And certainly a lot of people who more-or-less got out of RPGs and into Boardgames as they got older.

Perhaps in this post, there is a further clue as to all the disconnects presently occuring.

I don't play RPGs to win.  Because frankly, that's just silly.  It's not a competitive experience.  It's a co-operative one.  

And again, I find myself realizing that I've wandered into one of those theory debates where I realize that people are essentially rehashing topics that have been in every "how to roleplay" section in every RPG I've ever read.  Perhaps I need a term for these, since they happen enough.  "Noob moment" works for me.  Any other suggestions?