Adventure 1: Kinunir

76 Patrons

As I said "at least partially".

Steading of the Hill Giant Chief is a dungeon. As such, by the railroad / airplane definition I've give, it has some elements. B2 is more of a campaign setting than an adventure module, as it gives an environment to explore and tells the players to make their own adventures.

Quote from: SettembriniAdventure 1: Kinunir

76 Patrons

What does that mean?

Quote from: jrientsDitto the Caves of Chaos.  Hell, half the stories I hear about B2 involve ignoring the dungeon and looting the Keep.  Where in the module is that forbidden?

Or T1 - how many people have had their groups simply torch Hommlet?  The module just gives you the village and details on a nearby dungeon, with some very sparse notes on NPC motivations.  No story is given, no direction is given to the DM or players.

Settembrini - good call on Kinunir.  A lot of those Trav modules would just describe a ship or a location and give some ideas for using them in a game.

T1 The Village of Hommlet.  After driving off the bandits, one group I ran it for sealed up the ghoul warrens and fixed up the Moathouse to make it into their HQ.  Neither of which is either mandated or forbidden by the module.

Double Adventure 1: Annic Nova.  My PCs ignored the ship the first time they caught it on sensors.  They were too busy selling nukes to Space Hitler.  Later the sold the Nova for a percentage of its worth to fix their own Far Trader and make a down payment on another one.

I believe Sett and I can keep this up for a while.

Quote from: James McMurrayWhat does that mean?

Two early, utterly non-linear classic adventures for Traveller.  Kinunir is particularly interesting because, like Annic Nova, it's a dungeon in space.

I've got your dark grim future right here...

QuoteSteading of the Hill Giant Chief is a dungeon.

You are of circular crapologic. Where does the group enter the steading? What is the final room of the steading? Show me where player freedom is curtailed in
this particular module

instead of talking in a genealized way. Ron Edwards would have already come down on you, because you never ever provide AP examples. Please address the actual modules discussed.
Keep in mind, that the Group will be at 9th level for the steading.

EDIT: To keep moving:
BX Lost City

Quote from: James McMurrayAs I said "at least partially".

Steading of the Hill Giant Chief is a dungeon. As such, by the railroad / airplane definition I've give, it has some elements. B2 is more of a campaign setting than an adventure module, as it gives an environment to explore and tells the players to make their own adventures.

By your definition all games -- every single game -- is "at least partially" railroady.  Otherwise it's not a game and simply an environment for games to be created in.  As soon as goals / challenges are introduced, this "railroads" the players in some respect.  This is true for boardgames, card games, sports, improv theatre, and RPGs.

However, this is quite far from what the average gamer means when they say "railroading".

Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: To keep moving:
BX Lost City

Ah, that was a fun one.  B4 was the alphanumeric, IIRC.  Axe Hobbit-hater the 8th level Barbarian tried to take that one all by himself.  He never made it to the city proper.  Once he realized that the monsters were winning the war of attrition (he had no cleric) he simply went home.  That dungeon features several groups of degenerate, half-mad humans which the players are free to fight or ally with as pleases them.

Quote from: James McMurrayB2 is more of a campaign setting than an adventure module

Utter crap.  For an unbelievable huge number of players, B2 is exactly what a dungeon looks like.  Until at least 1999 is was the adventure in the hobby with the largest print runs.  It came in the box a lot of people started D&D with.  B2 is the Ur-Dungeon for a vast swath of the D&D players in the world.

And this part, this part right here:

Quote from: You, missing the forest for the treesit gives an environment to explore and tells the players to make their own adventures.

Right here you makes exactly the point Set and I have been trying to get across.  That's a dungeon, sir.  An environment where the players make their own adventures.  You've defined it more succinctly than I've been able to do so.

Quote from: StuartBy your definition all games -- every single game -- is "at least partially" railroady.  Otherwise it's not a game and simply an environment for games to be created in.

However, this is quite far from what the average gamer means when they say "railroading".

Yeah. I know. That's what I've been saying all along. I'm using railroady as a scale because nobody else seems to agree on a term. Anything printed, simply by being printed, crtails choice by saying "play this adventure or throw it away." That's a very minor railroad, and so low on the scale that most people won't even notice, but it's there.

Likewise with the other adventures offered here (at least the ones I've heard of). Steading: if you want to fight the giants, you have to go to the steading). Lost City: if you want to explore the city, you have to go to the city*. Etcetera.

It is interesting to note that a lot of earlier "adventures" were much closer to what I'd call settings, whereas modern day adventures are more likely to be "go here, do this for that reason."

QuoteAs soon as goals / challenges are introduced, this "railroads" the players in some respect.

Not so. Only if the means of achieving those goals has already been laid out by the adventure module or GM is it railroady. If the GM creates a world and then has that world react to player input there's no constraint of choices. To me this is the best type of game to run and play, although it's so hard to do consistently well that even I don't do it all the time.

The rest of the game options aren't bad though. I love a good dungeon crawl where I have to find the key to open the door to solve the puzzle to get the sword to slay the dragon. I think that's another communication problem that's happened in this thread. People have actually accused blakkie and me of hating dungeons, despite us never having said that. We've actually said the opposite, but as soon as you write soemthing that someone takes as an attack on their game style the stereotypes spring up and conversations end.

Hell, the only type of game I won't play is one with complete railroading, and even then I'll strain against the reins for a while before stopping.

QuoteWhere does the group enter the steading?

At any of several points. The constraint of choice isn't in "how do we enter it" but "do we enter it." If you want to play steading, you'll be going into the steading.

QuoteWhat is the final room of the steading?

Whichever one you clear last. But then again, nobody ever said you had to have a set "final room" to curtail player choices, did they? I know I never said it.

* I'm guessing on this one, based on spotty memories. I have Lost City but never ran it or played it. Is that the one that's effectively an underground city with a couple of factions warring inside it? Maybe a pyramid on the cover?

Quote from: jrientsRight here you makes exactly the point Set and I have been trying to get across.  That's a dungeon, sir.  An environment where the players make their own adventures.  You've defined it more succinctly than I've been able to do so.

See those thingies above my head? Those are my hand thrown up in the air. Either I will never be able to phrase this how you can understand it, or you'll never read it in a way that allows for understanding. I'll be rolling back 10 or so pages now and agreeing to disagree with you. Please feel free to continue to reply, but unless it's something new for the discussion I'll be skimming over it.

OK, with this amount of sophistry, you get the blakkie treatment.
*plonk*

James, at this point I am having trouble seeing your 'sliding scale railroad' concept as anything other than useless bullshit.  Especially when you say things like:

Quote from: JamesAnything printed, simply by being printed, crtails choice by saying "play this adventure or throw it away."

That's so wrongheaded I can't believe you wrote it.  Every Dungeon Master I know understands that you can plunder modules for ideas, NPCs, whole levels, whatever.