Quote from: TonyLBWow, that's awesome, man.  You're living in the post-apocalypse of roleplaying.  Cool image.

Please. It's dark grim future of roleplaying, not the post-apocalypse.

Well, I don't know enough about the 1990's gaming personalities to really have a beef with anyone but this old rec.games.frp.advocacy post is interesting from a historical standpoint:

Quote from: John NephewMany times at Lion Rampant we talked about a "storytelling" game and RPGs as Art [....] Hell, you can see some of the "storytelling game" ideas showing up in D&D modules I wrote at the time: ARENAS OF THYATIS and LEGIONS OF THYATIS.  But nobody looks for Art in TSR products, eh?

So the storytellers were quite aware that they were doing something different, and Nephew understood that he was importing those ideas into D&D.

Huh. It's probably good I jumped in when I did. I don't think "that article was stupid" could have sustained 22 pages of discussion. LOL

And yes, I did say 'LOL.' When someone says something so ludicrous that I laugh out loud at it, I like to let people know.

Quote from: Abyssal MawPlease. It's dark grim future of roleplaying, not the post-apocalypse.

Fair enough.  Either way, what a way to think about your own hobby!  Good on ya for stickin' with it.

Quote from: TonyLBFair enough.  Either way, what a way to think about your own hobby!  Good on ya for stickin' with it.

Well, your'e probably taking me a bit too seriously, but in any case... my own hobby came roaring back in 2000 in a way that seems to infuriate and horrify a certain fringe element that used to be important.

So for me, as a D&D fan, it's actually kinda great. With very few exceptions, I've gamed weekly for the last 6 years.

Real life railroads run on tracks. Because of this the train cannot deviate from the preset course. Unless, that is, a change of route is provided by some means. Even then one has substituted one track for another. With a railroad it is impossible to go off track.

In RPGs railroading was adopted as a term because some people would not allow deviating from a preset course of events, the 'track'. First A happened, then B then C. No allowance for trying a different route, very often because alternate routes were never planned for in the first place.

It's a matter of control. Some GMs want their players to see how cool their plotting is. So they allow only one way to proceed.

True Story: Back more years than some of you have been alive a DM designed a trap room in his dungeon. You entered through a door and had to make your way through a shit load of traps (many with undead included) to get to the treasure. One fine dungeon day a pair of adventurers encoutered a monster. Said monster, whom they slew, had an x-ray vision ring in its treasure. So they took the ring and used it. They just happened to be on the opposite side of the back wall of that trapped room.

Out came the mining tools, down came the wall, and the treasure was looted; bypassing the traps entirely.

Railroading is about the lack of choice, not about limited choices. Railroading is the GM ignoring the favorable reaction from the ogre to your offer of employment because he thinks his players have to fight the ogre for his plot to advance. When you can choose between routes to the BBEG, regardless of how few those choices are, it is not a railroad. (And never underestimate the players' ingenuity when it comes to finding new ways to reach the villain.)

Maybe if we called it an airplane you'd like it better? Many possible layovers, but eventually you'll be in Cincinnati no matter which route you take (presuming of course you don't choose not to get on one of the flights)?

Quote from: James McMurrayMaybe if we called it an airplane you'd like it better? Many possible layovers, but eventually you'll be in Cincinnati no matter which route you take (presuming of course you don't choose not to get on one of the flights)?

Have you ever considered that your problem may not be the format, but simply that you suck at running these things?

Take, for instance, a dungeon in an abandoned spaceship on a moon somewhere. At the end of the adventure, possible outcomes might include the PC's turning off the jamming device allowing them to summon help, figuring out how to restart the engines so they can leave on their own, with or without the research station core they came for, finding the alien ruins and teleporting themselve half way across the galaxy, a TPK by the thing in engineering, with events along the way including (or not) the possesion and slaying of a team member, a cunning and unexpected use of a grav plate as a trampolene and the PCs finding enough logs to figure out what is going on.

Or you can lead the thing from engineering in to the alien ruins so it gets transported across the galaxy, or get it to run in to the jamming device so you can escape, or you can convince the GM to let you blow up the reactors, sealing off the portal and attracting the attention of a passing spaceship or whatever.

So, again, are you retarded, don't speak english as a first language or just stupid?

James, could you offer an example of an RPG that is not railroaded? That might be helpful.

Quote from: StuartJames, could you offer an example of an RPG that is not railroaded? That might be helpful.

You know theres a smily for this right?:-

:forge:

Eliot, I salute you.
:bow:

Very good find, and proof of my theory.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWell, I don't know enough about the 1990's gaming personalities to really have a beef with anyone but this old rec.games.frp.advocacy post is interesting from a historical standpoint:

So the storytellers were quite aware that they were doing something different, and Nephew understood that he was importing those ideas into D&D.

Oh, god.  I remember that.

It sounded really cool.  And then, it really wasn't.

Quote from: StuartJames, could you offer an example of an RPG that is not railroaded? That might be helpful.

If you mean a printed adventure or campaign then no, I can't. They all have to be railroady (or airplaney if you prefer) to some extent, because it's impossible to cover all the possible reactions players will have to every scenario. The adventures for Rolemaster and Spacemaster seem to be the closest to absoulte freedom as I've ever seen, but they're more like settings with preplanned events then storylines.

If you mean just an RPG then I can say I've played campaigns in RM, SM, D&D, and perhaps several others that weren't railroaded at all. It takes a good GM willing to come completely unprepared and roll with whatever happens, but it's possible.

QuoteThey all have to be railroady

Bullshit.
Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, show me the railroady part.

Ditto the Caves of Chaos.  Hell, half the stories I hear about B2 involve ignoring the dungeon and looting the Keep.  Where in the module is that forbidden?