I'm also bringing up the idea related to that 'people don't mind railroading as long as the view is good.'

In my experience, a LOT of folks accept a degree of 'fudging the game to make things enjoyable.' Some folks see this as railroading, some don't.

I think it's important to consider definitions as reflecting how the game feels, not just how it's structured.

A GM saying 'No, you can't do that. No, you can't do that. Why? The door is locked. You have a distintegration wand? For some reason it's not working. Your burrowing critter just had a seizure' is stomping all over the players' feeling of power and freedom within a game.

A GM fudging rolls to keep things moving or to avoid results that she feels won't add to the flow of the game... for some people, that's going to be very frustrating and ruin the sense of game. For others, it keeps the game from 'being stupid.'

I don't think you can ignore motive and player satisfaction in what railroading is.

Stuart: different post then the one I was thinking of, but that works. That one's pointing to examples, not the overall setup, but I think the examples are clear enough that the meaning gets through.

Yes, those dungeons are pseudo-railroady (to coin a new phrase) because if you want the game to continue you jump through the hoops. Certainly they don't have to be played that way, the GM can just let you leave and play from there, but most dungeons in my experience are entered because you want something inside it. If you want the thing, you follow the trail. That trail may have branches, but there's always a finite number of ways to get to the one room where you can get your needs satisfied.

Basically there's straight path railroading where you either do exactly what's set up next or you get stuck. On the complete opposite end is a flat featureless plain with no map and no compass, giving practically infinite choice. The vast majority of adventures lie somewhere between those, with dungeons lying much closer to the railroad side then outdoor explorations.

Elliot: What the hell is the Nephew Essay and what the hell do I care? I'm not talking about some guy's essay, I'm talking about the last ten pages of this thread (give or take a few). Within that time we've talked a lot about limited choices, and not at all about false choices. So again I have to say "huh?"

Quote from: WillA GM saying 'No, you can't do that. No, you can't do that. Why? The door is locked. You have a distintegration wand? For some reason it's not working. Your burrowing critter just had a seizure' is stomping all over the players' feeling of power and freedom within a game.

Beat this guy up for ,e the next time you see him, will ya?

QuoteA GM fudging rolls to keep things moving or to avoid results that she feels won't add to the flow of the game... for some people, that's going to be very frustrating and ruin the sense of game. For others, it keeps the game from 'being stupid.'

This guy you can just slap once or twice and issue a firm "don't do it again."

Umm, dude, the Nephew Essay is what this whole goddamn thread is supposed to be about.

Not for the last 10+ pages it hasn't been. Keep up, will ya? This is real life and conversations drift sometimes. LOL

Holy crap.  Did you just say 'LOL'?  And I had thought this thread had already bottomed out.

Quote from: jrientsHoly crap.  Did you just say 'LOL'?  And I had thought this thread had already bottomed out.

In before Broccoli Dog.

Quote from: James McMurrayElliot: What the hell is the Nephew Essay and what the hell do I care? I'm not talking about some guy's essay, I'm talking about the last ten pages of this thread (give or take a few). Within that time we've talked a lot about limited choices, and not at all about false choices. So again I have to say "huh?"

It's what the thread started with, leading to me saying that dungeons provide real freedom, in contrast to illusionistic GM-led story.

You then contradicted me with "dungeons don't add more freedom than plotlines", and that bit of nonsense has dominated subsequent discussion. Looking back, we've already noted that dungeons can be restrict choice to a greater or lesser extent--like any other scenario, but that still doesn't make them a series of fake choices, which is how that essay was teaching GM's to handle players. Here's the link again.

Quote from: Elliot WilenIt's what the thread started with, leading to me saying that dungeons provide real freedom, in contrast to illusionistic GM-led story.

But we'll never get back there.  Not now.  Not even if you replace "dungeons" with "site-based scenarios."

Frankly, I'm a fan of both site-based gaming and illusionist gaming.  They both achieve different things, but they're both fun.

I also think that those two are meaningful terms, as opposed to a lot of the Forge-esque crap I've heard time and again.  Because these are very concrete, at-the-table, playstyles.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYes.  Yes, it did.

The implied reasoning for "why", we can debate all day.  But any careful looking shows that a 'shift towards railroading' in actual printed, released game material did happen.

We can, but it'd be pointless to do so. The reason can be summed up in three names and a dot.

RPGPundit

Quote from: James McMurrayNot for the last 10+ pages it hasn't been. Keep up, will ya? This is real life and conversations drift sometimes. LOL

And it wouldn't have dirfted in the direction it did in the first place if people had actually read the fucking article, because it lays out what railroading is rather fantastically.  Which of course, was the entire point of the fucking thread to begin with.

Quote from: blakkieI thought Pundit had never met a bad GM? :rolleyes:

I've met TONS of bad GMs.  GMing is hard; that's why I think that its so important to cultivate good GMing skills and practice.

On the other hand, hamstringing GMs in general isn't a solution for anything, its just a shitheaded knee-jerk reaction by a gang of panicking simians.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWe can, but it'd be pointless to do so. The reason can be summed up in three names and a dot.

RPGPundit

It's kind of shocking. That "how to Railroad" Essay has more than just Rein*Hagen's name on it. Nicole Lindroos is now known as Nikchik, and John Nephew is the guy who now runs Atlas Games.

It's like one of those cartoons when the good-guy jumps in a time machine to visit the future, leaving the bad guy in charge, and then once he reaches the future, he looks around and sees this wasted, grim landscape, and he finds out the bad guy has been in charge of the government for the last 2 decades.  

We're totally that guy, looking over the wasted landscape. I'm rereading the title of this thread and just nodding.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's kind of shocking. That "how
to Railroad" Essay has more than just Rein*Hagen's name on it. Nicole Lindroos is now known as Nikchik, and John Nephew is the guy who now runs Atlas Games.

It's like one of those cartoons when the good-guy jumps in a time machine to visit the future, leaving the bad guy in charge, and then once he reaches the future, he looks around and sees this wasted, grim landscape, and he finds out the bad guy has been in charge of the government for the last 2 decades.  

We're totally that guy, looking over the wasted landscape. I'm rereading the title of this thread and just nodding.

Yea, just do remember that all of these people have effectively been contained at this point; two of them are utter has-beens, and the third has just seen her pet setting become a flop and been forced to direct her whole company in support of a very mainstream system she never wanted, because its what people will actually buy.  
Story-based gaming, with railroading and all its other ills, has basically been defeated.  The New Swine are on to other things now.

As for "Dawn of the Emperors"; the Alphatia and Thyatis settings are great, just like all of Mystara is, but most of the fluff material outside of the barebones descriptions of the geography and locations themselves in that book are pretty well useless.
Mystara was great when it was written by Aaron Alston and Bruce Heard. Also, Ed Greenwood did a fine job with the Five Shires.  Most everything else was decidedly inferior.

RPGpundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's like one of those cartoons when the good-guy jumps in a time machine to visit the future, leaving the bad guy in charge, and then once he reaches the future, he looks around and sees this wasted, grim landscape, and he finds out the bad guy has been in charge of the government for the last 2 decades.  

We're totally that guy, looking over the wasted landscape. I'm rereading the title of this thread and just nodding.

Wow, that's awesome, man.  You're living in the post-apocalypse of roleplaying.  Cool image.