That might explain the confusion. I've been talking about dungeons myself, and am pretty sure that's what blakkie was referring to when he repeatedly used the word "dungeon". :rolleyes:

Quote from: James McMurrayThat might explain the confusion. I've been talking about dungeons myself, and am pretty sure that's what blakkie was referring to when he repeatedly used the word "dungeon". :rolleyes:

Yeah, if I understood that you guys meant 'the place where medieval rulers imprison and torture enemies' then this entire fiasco could have been avoided.  Please be clearer next time.

There's a difference:

I think of the Village of Hommlet as a dungeon.

The Tomb of Horrors, on the other hand, is really just a long encounter sequence, despite it looking more like a dungeon.

Quote from: jrientsYeah, if I understood that you guys meant 'the place where medieval rulers imprison and torture enemies' then this entire fiasco could have been avoided.  Please be clearer next time.

Depends on how one defines torture, y'know?

I guess it depends on how you define a "dungeon".  I think of any map with a set of encounters keyed to locations as being a dungeon.  Others have more specific meanings than that.  "The Hill" in B5: Horror on the Hill is very much a "dungeon" to me -- it's completely mapped out with "rooms" and "passageways"... but you can chop your way through the undergrowth to get from room to room instead of following the trails.

I think the heart of the discussion is the idea of using the game to tell a pre-scripted narrative, or the narrative the GM favours, versus simply presenting a situation and allowing the players actions to create the narrative.

In the example of the WWII Wargamer -- they won't mind at all if the scenario setup is prescripted / "railroaded", but they WILL mind if their choices and luck are subverted so that a prescripted historical ending is produced.

I think you CAN use "railroading" successfully in an RPG, as long as the Player's understand from the outset when it will be used and when their own decisions / luck affect the course of events in the game.  It's when the players mistakenly believe their actions / luck has an affect on something in the game, when it really doesn't, that they complain of "railroading".

I'd suggest presenting "railroaded" events in a non-first person narrative voice.  Rather than tell the players what they "see" happening, with no ability to control it, instead tell them what has happened, and start the gameplay at the moment they can make meaningful decisions.

For example -- if the game session you've planned requires the PCs to be guarding a caravan, just start the game there.  Don't start with an NPC asking the PCs if they'd like to guard the caravan, and then find ways to coerce them into doing so if one or more members of the group have another idea of what they'd like to do.

Edit:  Maybe a Caravan on it's way to Hommlet.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDepends on how one defines torture, y'know?

What I do with other consenting adults in the privacy of my home is NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!

Quote from: jrientsWhat I do with other consenting adults in the privacy of my home is NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!

You just can't take a hint, can you?

I mean, if you don't want to invite me, just say so.

:bawling:

QuoteWe're really talking about an entire structure of game management that involves players exploring a map that has matrixed encounters on it. So it could be a keep. It could be a forest. It could be anything..

QuoteI think of the Village of Hommlet as a dungeon.

The Tomb of Horrors, on the other hand, is really just a long encounter sequence, despite it looking more like a dungeon.

Quote"The Hill" in B5: Horror on the Hill is very much a "dungeon" to me -- it's completely mapped out with "rooms" and "passageways"... but you can chop your way through the undergrowth to get from room to room instead of following the trails.

And you guys get pissy then accuse us of redefining terms?

Since the beginning of this hobby the word dungeon has meant an underground complex containing monsters and/or traps that the players explore. Oddly enough, that's the definition I've been going by, not some theoryspeak that would make a forest a dungeon but the tomb of horrors not one.

The reasons for confusion in this thread just keep piling up.

QuoteYeah, if I understood that you guys meant 'the place where medieval rulers imprison and torture enemies' then this entire fiasco could have been avoided. Please be clearer next time.

Come on. We all know you're not this big of an idiot. Right?

QuoteI think the heart of the discussion is the idea of using the game to tell a pre-scripted narrative, or the narrative the GM favours, versus simply presenting a situation and allowing the players actions to create the narrative.

Precisely. Dungeon (classic dungeons, with walls, corridors, and rooms) are often used as a way of telling a prescribed story, with rooms 10, 12, and 21 necessary steps along the path to the treasure in room 35. Not always, but often. I'd hazard a guess that it's done that way more often then not.

Oh, and sense we're such fans of the wiki definitions: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/RPG_Lexica:DEF. Seems like your chosen dictionary agrees that dungeon crawls involve underground areas. It puts a bunch of judgements into the definition, but ist is rpg.net, so it's expected.

Quote from: JamesCome on. We all know you're not this big of an idiot. Right?

Sorry, man.  I was just messing around with that comment.  Obviously it needed a smiley to make that clearer.  Didn't mean to get you riled.

QuoteSeems like your chosen dictionary agrees that dungeon crawls involve underground areas.

Dungeons adventures don't have to be underground, just like they don't literally have to be the prison under a castle.

QuoteDungeon (classic dungeons, with walls, corridors, and rooms) are often used as a way of telling a prescribed story, with rooms 10, 12, and 21 necessary steps along the path to the treasure in room 35. Not always, but often. I'd hazard a guess that it's done that way more often then not.

Underground environs may have been used in such a way, in commercial products of limited scope.  Actual DMs making there own dungeons, though?  Is the guy with 20 levels and a thousand rooms in a thick binder trying to tell a really long story?  I doubt it.

Sorry, not so much riled as exasperated. Being griped at for using one defintion of railroad and then being told that the definition of dungeon the hobby has used for decades isn't the one being used does that to me. Especially when the dictionary that was quoted to me earlier in the thread agrees with me on what a dungeon is.

He might be, depending on the layout of the dungeon. "Story" in this sense doesn't necessarily mean characterization, exposition, and all the other reasons people go to the movies. Sometimes "they explored and got the key, used the key to find the puzzle room, answered the puzzles to get the sword, then used the sword to slay the demon" is the "story" being told.

Well, thats a dungeon crawl not a dungeon.

I think in my very first post on this subject, I suggested we use the term 'explorable area' instead of dungeon.

Further: dungeons don't tell stories, the players do.

QuoteDungeon (classic dungeons, with walls, corridors, and rooms) are often used as a way of telling a prescribed story, with rooms 10, 12, and 21 necessary steps along the path to the treasure in room 35. Not always, but often. I'd hazard a guess that it's done that way more often then not.

Absolutely not. You could certainly arrange a map where rooms 10, 12, and 21 come before 35, but you still can't make the players go there. They could go to room 10, then leave and never come back. In fact, you can't even guarantee they'll ever get to room 10. They may just hang around rooms 1-9 for a while, and then go back up. And you design with that concept in mind.

I'm afraid further communication in this thread is going to be tough, since noone seems to be able to agree what constitutes 'railroading', what is or is not a 'dungeon' and now we've somehow drug 'story' into the mix as well.  I don't want to talk about 'story'.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, thats a dungeon crawl not a dungeon.

Quoteconquest of underground regions. Such regions are usually man-made "dungeons"

The definition for dungeon Crawl gives a definition for dungeon. Or did you not actually read it (much like this thread)?

QuoteI think in my very first post on this subject, I suggested we use the term 'explorable area' instead of dungeon.

If your explorable area is made of impenetrable walls, a cieling, and has all the other trappings of a standard dungeon then call it what you want. If it doesn't then you're trying to push the discussion somewhere you can more easily manage it.

QuoteAbsolutely not. You could certainly arrange a map where rooms 10, 12, and 21 come before 35, but you still can't make the players go there. They could go to room 10, then leave and never come back. In fact, you can't even guarantee they'll ever get to room 10. They may just hang around rooms 1-9 for a while, and then go back up. And you design with that concept in mind.

Ummm... that's true with every railroad. The players can just refuse to play the game you're giving them. What part of "do it or leave" don't you understand? Those are all small words, but if you need me to I can supply definitions for them as well. Just let me know what your preferred english dictionary is so you can't accuse me of using the wrong one.

Quote from: jrientsI'm afraid further communication in this thread is going to be tough, since noone seems to be able to agree what constitutes 'railroading', what is or is not a 'dungeon' and now we've somehow drug 'story' into the mix as well.  I don't want to talk about 'story'.

Whenever you talk railroad you're talking story: the story the GM wants to tell. I don't care to discuss story either, beyond that last sentence.