Bolding mine:

Quote from: James McMurrayThey allow for the GM to set up situations where you must jump through hoops A, B, and C in order before you can get to where you want to be. This is not necessarily a bad thing. If the group likes that type of dungeon then they should play them.

On the other hand, dungeons don't automatically do that. If the place is set up more like an underground town, and/or there are multiple paths to the goal, the restriction on player choice is much smaller.

I would agree that it's easier to make a game more railroad-y by presenting what appears to be a *very* limited environment, and then enforcing those (and often other) limits.

A dungeon can be used as the excuse for railroading a group.

James, the thing you're missing here is that Settembrini is objectively right for the Gygaxian type of dungeon, which is the only kind of dungeon that he, I, and most old schoolers I know care about.

Quote from: JamesThey allow for the GM to set up situations where you must jump through hoops A, B, and C in order before you can get to where you want to be.

Except that's not a dungeon.  That's a railroad plot disguised as a dungeon.  What we're hitting here is disagreement based solely upon a lack of consensus as to the definition of the term 'dungeon'.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBolding mine:
I would agree that it's easier to make a game more railroad-y by presenting what appears to be a *very* limited environment, and then enforcing those (and often other) limits.

A dungeon can be used as the excuse for railroading a group.

I thought that's what I said.

Quote from: James McMurrayI thought that's what I said.

Uh...

...Then we agree!

Wait, so you're saying that Gygaxian dungeons are the only dungeons you care about? Then you say that a setup which requires you to just through various hoops to get to the goal isn't a dungeon?

Have you ever actually played any dungeons made by Gygax? He's got magical keys, one way teleporters, and puzzle locked single entrance rooms galore.

I've been playing this game and running it since Red Box Basic, and I can assure you that it isn't just Gygax that makes dungeons with those elements, it's almost every published dungeon module.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenUh...

...Then we agree!

Grooviness.

Quote from: James McMurrayI thought that's what I said.

No, if someone had actually said something like, "dungeons facilitate railroading better than other types of scenarios," this thread would've had a lot less stupid in it.

Oh, I still think there would've been some flames over that.  But it would've been a lot less brain-meltingly dumb.

Quote from: James McMurrayWait, so you're saying that Gygaxian dungeons are the only dungeons you care about?

Pretty much.

QuoteThen you say that a setup which requires you to just through various hoops to get to the goal isn't a dungeon?

I'm saying a hole in the ground with a plot that goes A->B->C is by definition the exact opposite of a dungeon.

QuoteHave you ever actually played any dungeons made by Gygax?

I've have not played many.  But I've DMed most of the ones I can lay my hands on.  I've run the Caves, the Moathouse, and the Steading more times than I can easily recall.

QuoteHe's got magical keys, one way teleporters, and puzzle locked single entrance rooms galore.

I've been playing this game and running it since Red Box Basic, and I can assure you that it isn't just Gygax that makes dungeons with those elements, it's almost every published dungeon module.

Yeah, I call the style Gygaxian not because the style is exclusive to him, but because he's done some of the better ones I've played.  A Gygaxian dungeon has meaningful choice, making it diametrically opposed to railroading.

Quote from: RedFoxNo, if someone had actually said something like, "dungeons facilitate railroading better than other types of scenarios," this thread would've had a lot less stupid in it.

Hmmm...

Quotedungeons, more than similar outdoor adventures, restrict choices.

QuoteThey allow for the GM to set up situations where you must jump through hoops A, B, and C in order before you can get to where you want to be.

QuoteOn the other hand, dungeons don't automatically do that.

Maybe you've been reading a different thread?

QuoteA Gygaxian dungeon has meaningful choice, making it diametrically opposed to railroading.

Meaningful choices like "jump through the hoops or leave" perhaps. I'm at work right now, but when I get a chance I'll dig out some old Gygax modules (and others). The one that leaps immediately to mind is Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (is that what you're calling "The Caves"?). In that one you have to go through a set of teleporters to reach your goal. No "meaningful choices" other than "do I step in this corridor, fully expecting to be teleported to gods know where, or do I leave and give up on my search for the most valued treasure of an ancient wizard?" Sure, you can choose which order you ride the teleporters in, but it's a null choice since you don't actually know where they're going.

There's a similar situation in Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure but I can't recall ofhhand what the key/teleporter/portal necessary to reach the demon was. Also in the Tomb of Horrors, where there was only a single route to the demilich's lair. You either find that route, which will typically require searching the entire dungeon top to bottom because of ho it's hidden, or you leave. No "meaningful choices." Just "do it or don't do it."

Some productive railroad thoughts:

When is a railroad not a railroad?

When it's a premise.
 'Ok, in the next session, you guys are going to be entering the Dungeon of the Seven Jade Dragons. Here's some history on it, and some possible reasons why you might want to go there. Come up with a good reason why your character wants to go there.'
 Generally a premise is obvious, presented up-front, and only governs a limited set of actions. In the previous case, the premise gets someone TO the dungeon, but doesn't limit much decisions once you are there.
 A premise can feel like a railroad if the group has a very hard-line 'the game is a simulation of our characters in a world.'


There are also other forms of GM interference (with die rolls, NPC actions, etc) that serve to generate interesting stories or interesting results. For example, the player does smart and cool things, but the game system spits up a result of 'you die horribly in some meaningless way.' GM overrides this to make things more entertaining/'right.'

Again, to certain tastes, this might all seem obnoxious. While it's not all railroading, the term might be used, from the sense of 'interference.'

James:  The Caves of Chaos, not Tsojcanth.  I haven't reviewed the latter in a while, but I remember it being a real pain in the ass to run.  The booklet with the new monsters and treasures was delightful, though.

I've already posted a Gygax Dungeon that is very much *not* a "Railroad" -- B2: The Keep on the Borderlands (Gary Gygax, 1979).  Here is an analysis of the choices the players get to make in the "Caves of Chaos" section:

Quote from: WillThere are also other forms of GM interference (with die rolls, NPC actions, etc) that serve to generate interesting stories or interesting results. For example, the player does smart and cool things, but the game system spits up a result of 'you die horribly in some meaningless way.' GM overrides this to make things more entertaining/'right.'

Again, to certain tastes, this might all seem obnoxious. While it's not all railroading, the term might be used, from the sense of 'interference.'

I think that's exactly railroading.  It's railroading towards a goal you think/hope the players will like... but it's still railroading.  Their choices and/or luck don't matter.

Now, if the system doesn't support the style of gameplay you want (eg. not having seemingly 'random' PC death) that's a seperate issue that should be dealt with via game mechanics (eg. Luck Points, Karma, etc) rather than what's basically cheating, and turning the game into something else (eg. telling a story).

Stuart: Keep on the Borderlands is, as you may have guessed from the name, not a dungeon. It's a, ummm... how do I put this plainly? KEEP!!!

The module is not a dungeon, it's a large-ish setting that happens to include a bunch of dungeons, some of which have aspects of railroading in them, and others which do not.

jrients: Tsojcanth wasn't too problematic for me to run, but I made the players do the mapping instead of me. That's really the only hard part about it: there's very few straight corridors, and almost none that go longer then 20' before veering off in some angle. Frequently those angles aren't easily divisible by 45 degrees, making the mapping that much harder.

Quote from: James McMurrayStuart: Keep on the Borderlands is, as you may have guessed from the name, not a dungeon. It's a, ummm... how do I put this plainly? KEEP!!!

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU PIG IGNORANT THICK BASTARD!!!!

You guys (some of you, anyhow) are hung up on the idea that dungeons are just linked rooms underground linked by 10x10 corridors and possibly patches of green slime.

We're really talking about an entire structure of game management that involves players exploring a map that has matrixed encounters on it. So it could be a keep. It could be a forest. It could be anything..

The method here is one in which the GM describes the area, and asks the players "what are you doing?", "which direction do you take?", etc. And then, when encounters are met, it goes down to an encounter level of detail. I think Settembrini calls this "the Method of Roleplay".

Thats I've been talking about this whole time, anyhow.