I also want to add -- this is why I don't think you should fudge dice rolls in an RPG.  If the players will "survive", "defeat the monster", "find the secret door", and/or "get the treasure" based on a fudged dice roll... that's just another type of railroad.  

If the player's decision doesn't matter -- don't ask them to make one.  
If the player's dice roll doesn't matter -- don't ask them to make one.
If your (the GM's) dice roll doesn't matter -- don't make one.

If you're left without the player's making any decisions, and nobody rolling any dice (no element of chance), then it's not only a railroad... it's not even a game.  It's the GM telling the players a story that they get to add a bit of improv dialogue to.

On the other hand, I rather like "illusionism."  Playing shell games with player choices and results to get the results you want.  That can often have great results.  In fact, I think it's an invaluable GM skill to learn.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe irony in this post is so thick I stubbed my toe on it.

Damn. I was hoping it'd be about two feet higher.

'Let no shot go unanswered'

Always challenge bullshit acusations.

For instance, you may think it beneath you to allow comments about the racist views of some forge member to go unchallenged, but really, if these things take hold it's really difficult to shift them.

A lot of Call of Cthulhu adventures are dungeon crawls: - 'Music from a darkened room', for instance, is a dungeon crawl. This compares really well to the epic railroads like 'Beyond the mountains of madness'.

I'm currently running G1-3 for a group of players, using D&D 3.5.  It's going well, but it's very much a proof to me that dungeons != railroad.  My players are smart and active, and they do their best to turn things on their ear and disrupt the module/dungeon so that the advantage is to them, and not to the Giants.

It's a ton of fun finding out which way they steer the action next.

I almost feel like apologizing for bringing up dungeons. But the thing is, I was only suggesting them as a superior alternative to the blatantly illusionistic pre-plotted adventure style advocated in "The DM's guide to winging it". The subsequent attacks on dungeons as being "railroaded" are a rhetorical distraction from the central issue of the divisions represented by reactions to that essay.

Where I stand: I hate that stuff. If you think it's okay, great! Go enjoy your game! But don't try tell me that those GMing tactics are necessary, or even worse, that they're really what everybody does. The latter is a particularly odious form of argument and dishonest to boot, as it ends up saying that a difference in degree is no difference at all.

I quote myself, as it seems neccessary:

QuoteYou guys can´t be forgers. Forgers know that railroad is not what you are talking about.

A railroad leaves no choice, neither tactical (outcome of combat is scripted), nor strategically.

In a dungeon, your strategic choices are limited, by walls and doors. Your tactical choices on the other hand as well as the degrees of freedom are manifold in a dungeon. The outcome of the encounters isn´t scripted as it is in a railroad. Every room with some barrels, a trapdoor and goblins in it is a new tactical challenge. And it´s the actual game to face and overcome these challenges. How they are overcome is not scripted.
And most importantly: If the characters overcome the challenge isn´t scripted. That´s the heart of D&D: you can fail. Only the risk of failure makes "killing orcs" fun and meaningful. Otherwise it´s wankery. Therefore

dungeons = risky & fun
railroad = riskless wankery

Even the strategic choices become richer and richer as you raise through the levels: passwall, teleport etc.
Ususally in campaign games of dungeon crawls, the strategic choices are made about which dungeon to raid. Then it´s all about tactics again.

So stop shittalking. You either don´t know what you are talking about, or you are deliberately trolling.

Apart from that, I´m with Eliot.

Set, we read that once already and have spawned an entire side discussion about it. Care to add anything new?

Why?
It´s canned truth and settles the matter.
Case closed, Settembrini away.

Ah, cool. I can understand wanting to ignore conversations when they meander away from your comfort zone, and throw up the "it's Truth" wall even if it's no longer actually relevant.

As just shown by yourself, nothing new can be added. I return when something new has been brought up.

Quote from: SettembriniWhy?
It´s canned truth and settles the matter.
Case closed, Settembrini away.

Cheap.

Quote from: ImperatorCheap.

Yeah, but I don't disagree with him either.

Dude, something new was brought up. You ignore it because it's an attempt to add levels to what you believe to be a black and white term (railroading). That doesn't mean it isn't new, it just means you've got your fingers in your ears chanting "la la la."

Case closed until you can open your ears.
McMurray away.

-- see how stupid it looks when I do it? It's the same when you do it, especially when you're not actually leaving the conversation. Heck, I've never seen you actually leave a conversation after giving your "and that's all there is to it, I'm outta here" speech. It's like threatening to take your toys and go home, then handing the bat to the next hitter. If you're going to say you're doing something, do it. If you're not actually going to leave the thread, be a useful member of it. Unless silly is your online persona, in which case nevermind, Pundit having caricatures as pets makes sense in a perverted way.

to return to the topic at hand: dungeons, more than similar outdoor adventures, restrict choices. They allow for the GM to set up situations where you must jump through hoops A, B, and C in order before you can get to where you want to be. This is not necessarily a bad thing. If the group likes that type of dungeon then they should play them.

On the other hand, dungeons don't automatically do that. If the place is set up more like an underground town, and/or there are multiple paths to the goal, the restriction on player choice is much smaller.

QuoteYou ignore it because it's an attempt to add levels to what you believe to be a black and white term (railroading).

And if you want to go about pointlessly redefining otherwise clear and widely accepted terminology, go do it on the Forge.  I hear they're real big on those sorts of stupid semantic games.  They've got whole theories built around them.