Quote from: RedFoxIt's okay man.  Let him go.  Some ducks gotta fly their own way.

(Lowers hand slowly)...sometimes they do come back

Regards,
David R

Wow.  

At least most people seem to be on the same page on this topic.

I mean... if you want to define "railroading" to be "limited scope of choices" rather than just "no choices", you'll end up with a pretty useless term that could be used to describe things like "genres", and almost all RPGs.  It also becomes a lot more like a road, path, or simply open terrain -- which makes "railroad" a pretty poor metaphor.

For example: Dogs in the Vineyard -- Railroading players to be Mormon Cowboys, going from Town to Town, dealing with the troubles of the townsfolk... Want to explore the Lost World?  Blast off in your Serenity style Cowboy Spaceship?  Too bad!  Sorry... those choices are blocked.

Other games that limit the choices a player can make:

* My Life with Master -- You *must* begin the game as a monstrous slave to the master!  What if you wanted to be a Mormon Cowboy??
* The Shab-al-Hiri Roach -- What if you don't want to play an academic?  What if you want to play a space cowboy?
* Any RPG or Storytelling game with a specific genre

So it's fair to say that an RPG with a "dungeon" style map / encounter list is more restrictive than you personally like.  That's your own preference, rather than something you should expect other people to recognize as "railroading". I suggest you'd prefer games that are very heavy on the improv and do little to restrict your imagination due to genre conventions.  

Quote from: blakkieI'm don't know, want make up a term? Let's all get go cliche and make one up, ok? How about "narrow world" or "narrow senario"? Hell, let's make up a brand new word for the property. Lets call it...."deinonlogos" from the root of two Greek words. Now the more predetermined and limited in range that the characters go the lower the deinonlogos, or the higher. Doesn't matter but we have to pick one because we just made this up, so it's up to us! Whoot, this is fun. Anybody else have something they'd like to make up a name for?

Maybe I should start a How To Run : Dungeon Crawls thread, so folks can demonstrate the many ways of running this kind of game...

Regards,
David R (who was going to do a How To Run: Westerns)

Quote from: David RMaybe I should start a How To Run : Dungeon Crawls thread, so folks can demonstrate the many ways of running this kind of game...

I would be very interested in a positive thread pointing out the specific good opportunities of the form (as backed by actual play experience) as well as warning of its legitimate pit-falls.  I'd find that much more interesting than the (admittedly, funny!) rhetorical slap-fighting that's been going on here.  Go do it, man!

Quote from: TonyLBGo do it, man!

You're right. Going to go gather my thoughts, and post what I come up with.

Regards,
David R

Stuart, it isn't about any limits being railroading. It's about lots of limits being railroading. Viewed that way, a dungeon that limits you to left, right, or leave has aspects of railroading.

Some folks (not necessarily you) just would rather bitch and moan and call names then talk. That's ok. This is the internet after all. It's to be expected.

A dungeon *can* be a railroad, but so can other types of games.  It really comes down to whether or not the choices the players make have any effect on what will happen next.

Sometimes a railroad can actually be ok!  If the players understand when their decisions matter an when the game is just being "moved along" that can be ok if it fits the style of the group.

If you were playing a wargame based on WWII, all the battle setups are "railroaded" to conform with the historical scenarios.  Players don't usually complain about that because the game is about the tactical chocies within that scenario.  DitV player's don't complain about their limited choices, nor do MLwM players.  I think Dungeon style RPG players are the same.

I agree with your post 100%.

Quote from: James McMurrayStuart, it isn't about any limits being railroading. It's about lots of limits being railroading. Viewed that way, a dungeon that limits you to left, right, or leave has aspects of railroading.

I hate these kinds of conversations because they muddy the waters so much that it becomes nigh impossible to retain any usable language.

Quote from: StuartA dungeon *can* be a railroad, but so can other types of games.  It really comes down to whether or not the choices the players make have any effect on what will happen next.

Sometimes a railroad can actually be ok!  If the players understand when their decisions matter an when the game is just being "moved along" that can be ok if it fits the style of the group.

If you were playing a wargame based on WWII, all the battle setups are "railroaded" to conform with the historical scenarios.  Players don't usually complain about that because the game is about the tactical chocies within that scenario.  DitV player's don't complain about their limited choices, nor do MLwM players.  I think Dungeon style RPG players are the same.

We have a winner.

Quote from: RedFoxI hate these kinds of conversations because they muddy the waters so much that it becomes nigh impossible to retain any usable language.

Sory. Some of us like our terms to be a bit more useful than binary on/off stuff that rarely comes up.

However, you're always free to not read the threads if they trickle into your hate zone.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWe have a winner.

Stuart is my hero of the day.

Quote from: James McMurraySory. Some of us like our terms to be a bit more useful than binary on/off stuff that rarely comes up.

However, you're always free to not read the threads if they trickle into your hate zone.

The irony in this post is so thick I stubbed my toe on it.

Quote from: StuartA dungeon *can* be a railroad, but so can other types of games.  It really comes down to whether or not the choices the players make have any effect on what will happen next.

Bingo.  Once you take meaningful choices away from the PCs, you have a railroad.  Dungeons do not inherently do that.

So here are 2 "classic" D&D modules.

B2: The Keep on the Borderlands (Gary Gygax, 1979) is not a "railroad" -- the PCs have a lot of choice about where to go, in what order, or even whether to go there at all.



While DL2: Dragons of Flames (Douglas Niles, 1984) is very much a "railroad".  

Player: "I don't want to go on the cart."
GM: "Oh, don't be such a baby."



Edit:  I'm overly generalizing... there are parts of DL2 that let the players control the direction they want to go in... but when the time comes, they're getting on that cart.