Quote from: RedFoxAnd no, sorry...  a dungeon isn't a railroad.  I have no fucking idea what you people are talking about.  Railroading is about blocking PC actions.  A fucking backdrop doesn't do that.

When the "backdrop" has a narrow list of where you can go and in what order, it is towards that end of the scale.

Because I'm talking about a scale. J Arcane is talking about black and white. Quite ironic that he brought that up accusing me about excluding the middle, when it was actually him fabricating it. :rolleyes:

I'm don't know, want make up a term?  Let's all get go cliche and make one up, ok?  How about "narrow world" or "narrow senario"? Hell, let's make up a brand new word for the property.  Lets call it...."deinonlogos" from the root of two Greek words. Now the more predetermined and limited in range that the characters go the lower the deinonlogos, or the higher. Doesn't matter but we have to pick one because we just made this up, so it's up to us! Whoot, this is fun.  Anybody else have something they'd like to make up a name for?

So now that we have the name, lets run with it. Dungeons tend towards the low end of the deinonlogos range, or wait was that the high end? Which way were we going to make this scale run?

Of course we can also say that inregards to pacing some GMs try to avoid railroading by ignoring pacing to compensate and bring the deinonlogos back up (or down?) which in turn tends to lead to sessions involving primarily long and involved player discusions about things like the safest way to open the door that they've been stuck at for 30 minutes. Which while thrilling in some sense, just isn't my bag of tea.

blakkie, denizen of the RPG lexicon vanguard :win:

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, it comes from this: I realized I saw a lot of this sort of thing, and I was like "Man, if I had a nickel for everytime I saw some someone trying to play the race-victim card when we're talking about roleplaying games..."

Oh, so you just fucked up and missed the whole "childish name calling angle"? And that you continue to fuck up because you are STILL are missing the whole "childish name calling angle" as opposed to the "race" angle....several posts later.


Sooooooooo.....you think you've got it now???

P.S. WTF is Levi with that amusing story? Comeon White Knight!

Quote from: blakkieWhen the "backdrop" has a narrow list of where you can go and in what order, it is towards that end of the scale.

You're still being a damn idiot.

Again: "Railroading is about blocking PC actions."

If they can go left or right an a dungeon intersection, that's not railroading.

Examples of railroading would be:

a) Not allowing them to choose between left or right at all (maybe a magical, unbreakable portcullis that can't be bypassed by any means suddenly drops down to block the left passage).

b) Allowing them to seemingly choose, but contriving to make their choice meaningless (having them walk into the room that's drawn to the right on the map whether they actually turn that way or not).

So get it through your thick skull and stop derailing the thread.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYour'e entire argument amounts to "well, pretty much the  consensus is that this railroading-thing is bad. SO I'll just use that word to describe an entire structure I don't actually understand or deal with that often."

Except where I'm saying it isn't? For Christ sake I have to ask are you even reading my posts??

Quote from: blakkieExcept where I'm saying it isn't? For Christ sake I have to ask are you even reading my posts??

Well reading your posts in this thread is kind of like using turpentine as a topical cream for your nethers.

You've been ranting and raving about dungeons being railroaded, and when you're called on that, you start babbling about scales and making up new words to shift your goalposts around.

There's no fucking scale involved.  Backdrops and obstructionist GMing are apples and oranges.  You can't even honestly say that dungeons encourage railroading.  It just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Blakkie, you've put me in this position where I have to figure out if you are actually stupid, or just a fundamentally dishonest person. Or kind of a mix.

I totally get it that you "hate dungeons", and you seem to have some sense that railroading is bad. But trying to link the two just seems like you're trying too hard.

Quote from: YamoAgain: "Railroading is about blocking PC actions."

Yup, and there the walls are blocking them in chuting them down the preapproved paths....until they get powerful enough that walls aren't effective at containing them.  Then the they tend to be outside more, or the walls go magic.

Why do you think that outside in D&D is traditionally the more dangerous place than the some dank hole in the ground?

Quote from: blakkieYup, and there the walls are blocking them in chuting them down the preapproved paths....until they get powerful enough that walls aren't effective at containing them.  Then the they tend to be outside more, or the walls go magic.

You seem to be convinced that dungeons are some sort of board game, all logic and evidence to the contrary.  Did you read the Epic Level Handbook or something?

Quote from: blakkieWhen the "backdrop" has a narrow list of where you can go and in what order, it is towards that end of the scale.

Because I'm talking about a scale.

blakkie, railroading is about not having a choice, not about the limited options that your(pcs) choice brings forth. For example, when the pcs don't have a choice about heading into the dungeon, that's railroading. When the pcs make the choice to go into the dungeon that's not railroading. The fact that in the latter their options are limited does not mean that dungeons are railroady. As always enviroment determines the options that are open to the pcs - some are more varied than others.

Regards,
David R

QuoteI totally get it that you "hate dungeons", and you seem to have some sense that railroading is bad.

Me dishonest? No. Me stupid? No. Busy with my kids and getting read to go off and game so I'm not going to bother drag together all my quotes here to try to pound into your think skull head that this is NOT what I'm saying? Yes.

P.S. Fox.  Um, goal posts didn't move. However yes careful reading is required because I'm not sitting on one stereotypical side or the other....and yes it gets messy with people don't take the time to read and comprehend, instead just trying to stuff me into some pigeonhole to keep their model of the world nice and tidy and simple.

Quote from: David Rblakkie, railroading is about not having a choice, not about the limited options that your(pcs) choice brings forth. For example, when the pcs don't have a choice about heading into the dungeon, that's railroading. When the pcs make the choice to go into the dungeon that's not railroading. The fact that in the latter their options are limited does not mean that dungeons are railroady. As always enviroment determines the options that are open to the pcs - some are more varied than others.

Regards,
David R

Which is why we've got a new word! Deinonlogos. Learn it, use it, live it, love it.

Anyway, game's on gotta go. TTFN!

Quote from: blakkieWhich is why we've got a new word! Deinonlogos. Learn it, use it, live it, love it.

Your crazy moon language that's vaguely defined as something to do with using pre-generated characters?  (at least, that's what I get from your statement that it's about "pre-determined" and "limited range" character options)

What the flying hell has that got to do with dungeons?

Quote from: blakkieWhich is why we've got a new word! Deinonlogos. Learn it, use it, live it, love it.

Anyway, game's on gotta go. TTFN!

But... but... (waves hand frantically at a departing blakkie) railroading is about intent, not backdrop...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RBut... but... (waves hand frantically at a departing blakkie) railroading is about intent, not backdrop...

Regards,
David R

It's okay man.  Let him go.  Some ducks gotta fly their own way.

Quote from: blakkieMe dishonest? No. Me stupid? No. Busy with my kids and getting read to go off and game so I'm not going to bother drag together all my quotes here to try to pound into your think skull head that this is NOT what I'm saying? Yes.

P.S. Fox.  Um, goal posts didn't move. However yes careful reading is required because I'm not sitting on one stereotypical side or the other....and yes it gets messy with people don't take the time to read and comprehend, instead just trying to stuff me into some pigeonhole to keep their model of the world nice and tidy and simple.

"YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND ME MOM!  YOU CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND MY PAIN!  WAAAAAA!"

Save the emo shit for elsewhere plzkthx.