Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

Brad, were you on the board of a journal dedicated to Holocaust denial? That's the far more crucial evidence of Barker being a Nazi sympathizer.





You can browse more info about the Journal of Historical Review in archive here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

These are the self-professed goals of Castle Hill Publishers who published the Journal of Historical Review (from their "About" page):

QuoteIt is the goal of Castle Hill Publishers to scientifically investigate historical events, particularly those of the 20th century, without limitations imposed by dogmas or axioms.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to defend human rights and to combat discrimination, especially when it is directed against the German people. This shall be done within the widest possible framework and particularly by means of proper historical research into the events of the 20th century in Europe.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to correct unjust reporting or accounts of events of the 20th century. It is also the Foundation's goal to further public debate about the subject generally described as 'Holocaust'.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to financially assist Revisionists who, due to their work, are subjected to prosecution, physical assault or slander, or who are otherwise victimized or persecuted.

It is also the Foundation's goal to oppose, with all available legal means, those persons, institutions and organizations who denounce, charge, convict or otherwise inflict harm on Revisionists for not believing in the existence of gas chambers.

Welp, here comes the erasure from history. Marxists have been propping up Nazis as the most terrible people in existence for 70 years to cover up their own demonstrably worse atrocities. And retards, many of them "highly educated" eat it up.

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 12:09:28 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

Brad, were you on the board of a journal dedicated to Holocaust denial? That's the far more crucial evidence of Barker being a Nazi sympathizer.





You can browse more info about the Journal of Historical Review in archive here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

These are the self-professed goals of Castle Hill Publishers who published the Journal of Historical Review (from their "About" page):

QuoteIt is the goal of Castle Hill Publishers to scientifically investigate historical events, particularly those of the 20th century, without limitations imposed by dogmas or axioms.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to defend human rights and to combat discrimination, especially when it is directed against the German people. This shall be done within the widest possible framework and particularly by means of proper historical research into the events of the 20th century in Europe.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to correct unjust reporting or accounts of events of the 20th century. It is also the Foundation's goal to further public debate about the subject generally described as 'Holocaust'.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to financially assist Revisionists who, due to their work, are subjected to prosecution, physical assault or slander, or who are otherwise victimized or persecuted.

It is also the Foundation's goal to oppose, with all available legal means, those persons, institutions and organizations who denounce, charge, convict or otherwise inflict harm on Revisionists for not believing in the existence of gas chambers.

And that impacts the quality of Tekumel exactly how?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 04, 2024, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PMThe idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual....

What about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration? It seems like a contradiction to suggest Barker was using non-European cultures as inspiration for a world meant to convey what's being called a uniquely European attitude towards cultural conflict.

That's why it's a noteworthy observation. When Barker clearly makes a choice, not the obvious one from re-treading what other people have done and said with regard to history and mythology, it's fair to ask why he made that choice.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM
Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

That's basically true. The Aztec empire was built on conquest, and like the Roman Empire and many other empires, eventually began to suffer from internal problems. Many of the nominal citizens of the Aztec empires were very happy to replace Aztec rulers with other rulers, and Aztec religion with a different religion.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:19:44 PM
And that impacts the quality of Tekumel exactly how?

Man, you just seem really eager to suck some Neo-Nazi dick.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:28:49 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 04, 2024, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PMThe idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual....

What about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration? It seems like a contradiction to suggest Barker was using non-European cultures as inspiration for a world meant to convey what's being called a uniquely European attitude towards cultural conflict.

That's why it's a noteworthy observation. When Barker clearly makes a choice, not the obvious one from re-treading what other people have done and said with regard to history and mythology, it's fair to ask why he made that choice.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM
Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

That's basically true. The Aztec empire was built on conquest, and like the Roman Empire and many other empires, eventually began to suffer from internal problems. Many of the nominal citizens of the Aztec empires were very happy to replace Aztec rulers with other rulers, and Aztec religion with a different religion.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:19:44 PM
And that impacts the quality of Tekumel exactly how?

Man, you just seem really eager to suck some Neo-Nazi dick.

LOL, yes, like murdering the subjects by the thousands to appease their gods and engaging in ritual cannibalism (TBF many other cultures did this last part too).

Yes, I'm "sucking Neo-Nazi dick" by not giving a fuck what the deceased author did elsewhere because his beliefs aren't present in Tekumel...

Go suck some "feminine" penis and leave us thinking people alone will you?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:45:54 PM
Go suck some "feminine" penis and leave us thinking people alone will you?

Look, it's a free country. If white knighting a neo-Nazi is how you want to spend your time and energy, it's not my place to tell you to live your life differently.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:50:36 PM
Look, it's a free country. If white knighting a neo-Nazi is how you want to spend your time and energy, it's not my place to tell you to live your life differently.

Why are you white knighting known rapists and child pornographers?

I feel like it should be pointed out that the humanspace empire in the ancient background of Tekumel's lore wasn't presented as particularly moral. In addition to brutally conquering the Ssu, I believe they fought wars against several species they were formerly allied with.

The Pe Choi species on the other hand are often treated positively, notably in the novels. They gave humanity FTL and were generally peaceable and sought understanding between groups. In the spacefaring society of the ancient past, I'd say they played a similar role to Vulcans in Trek.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:50:36 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:45:54 PM
Go suck some "feminine" penis and leave us thinking people alone will you?

Look, it's a free country. If white knighting a neo-Nazi is how you want to spend your time and energy, it's not my place to tell you to live your life differently.

Now you are LIYNG about me, I've never said anything in defense of Barker, he's a Neo-Nazi or an Islamist (if you really think those are different).

Is he profiting from people buying Tekumel?

Is the money going to push nazism/islamism?

No?

Well then go suck a "feminine" penis you disingenuous twat.

Geekybugle -- Omega and Brad both posted with doubt about whether Barker was a nazi sympathizer, based on his authoring of Serpent's Walk.

But his participation in the Journal of Historical Review removes that doubt. If you consider their posts off-topic, then take it up with them.

---

That doesn't affect the quality of Tekumel products, but quality isn't the thread topic. In Reply #5, the original poster (Jam the MF) specifically asked about Barker's mindset.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 01:19:13 AM
Ok, I see that later on; the author of Tekumel wrote some very unsavory stuff.

Was his earlier work Tekumel, of a usable nature; or is it held in question too, because of his later writings?  Was he always the person he was later revealed to be; or is it possible that he fell into that later in his writing career?  Some people become converted, to certain mindsets.

To answer - Barker published Serpent's Walk and joined the Journal of Historical Review around 1990, which is after the creation of Tekumel -- but still in the middle of his publications about the setting. He continued to publish three move Tekumel novels after 1990, and oversaw the development of three RPGs set in Tekumel (_Gardásiyal_ in 1994, _Tekumel_ in 2005, and _Bethorm_, published in 2014 two years after his death).

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 04:48:01 PM
Geekybugle -- Omega and Brad both posted with doubt about whether Barker was a nazi sympathizer, based on his authoring of Serpent's Walk.

But his participation in the Journal of Historical Review removes that doubt. If you consider their posts off-topic, then take it up with them.

---

That doesn't affect the quality of Tekumel products, but quality isn't the thread topic. In Reply #5, the original poster (Jam the MF) specifically asked about Barker's mindset.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 01:19:13 AM
Ok, I see that later on; the author of Tekumel wrote some very unsavory stuff.

Was his earlier work Tekumel, of a usable nature; or is it held in question too, because of his later writings?  Was he always the person he was later revealed to be; or is it possible that he fell into that later in his writing career?  Some people become converted, to certain mindsets.

To answer - Barker published Serpent's Walk and joined the Journal of Historical Review around 1990, which is after the creation of Tekumel -- but still in the middle of his publications about the setting. He continued to publish three move Tekumel novels after 1990, and oversaw the development of three RPGs set in Tekumel (_Gardásiyal_ in 1994, _Tekumel_ in 2005, and _Bethorm_, published in 2014 two years after his death).

I'm taking it with pawsplay, you and everyone else that keeps trying to make the discussion about Barker and not Tekumel.

Are you also claiming that his beliefs are evident in the Tekumel stuff?

If so, provide evidence that ANYONE not privy to his beliefs would consider to be neo-nazi in nature.

If not, then try and keep the discussion about Tekumel. You leftists keep derailing threads, and the other members don't help by not ignoring you lot.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:28:49 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 04, 2024, 11:18:38 PMWhat about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration?

That's why it's a noteworthy observation. When Barker clearly makes a choice, not the obvious one from re-treading what other people have done and said with regard to history and mythology, it's fair to ask why he made that choice.

The historical phenomena of invasion, subjugation, violent cultural domination and enforced diasporas are hardly unique to the West. Given that Barker's stated goal in creating Tekumel was, like Tolkien, simply to present a fantasy world surrounding his invented language -- and given that language was designed based on non-European tongues, it would need something other than the bog-standard mediaeval European template -- it seems more in keeping with Occam's razor to me simply to postulate that these things are present in Tekumel because they're present in the source material (i.e. real Eastern history).

Nobody is disputing that Barker was an anti-semite; that now appears beyond reasonable doubt. But to infer that since the Tekumel setting depicts cultures rising and falling by means of mass intercultural violence, it must therefore endorse such violence and must therefore be a work of Nazi advocacy because that's how the Nazis expanded and we know Barker agreed with them, simply seems too far a stretch to pass the plausibility test. Moreover, as has been noted, nobody started making that argument or saw any anti-Semitism in Tekumel at all until the truth of Barker's beliefs had in fact come out, which suggests that if Tekumel was intended to be propaganda, it failed to a ludicrous degree. Sometimes an Eye of Being an Unimpeachable Shield against Foes is just an Eye of Being an Unimpeachable Shield against Foes.

Greetings!

I'm not worried about anything that MAR Barker wrote in some strange, obscure book, or allegedly wrote. I've read the ultimate source of fucking Mein Kampf, written by Adolf Hitler, so I'm sure that MAR Barker has been a light-weight.

Screeching about MAR Barker's obscure book--that includes Nazis in it--but which seldom seem capable of discussing precisely whatever MAR Barker supposedly wrote, seems like yet more Woke fucking REEEing, and a witch hunt.

Tekumel seems like a very cool and interesting game world. If you can get a copy, get it for sure!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Playing Devils not-advocate after playing devils advocate here.

Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

This is all rhetorical, of course, because any sane person knows the right answer and any fucking lunatic will say whatever suits their agenda. If Barker was a real Nazi, he certainly sucked at it and didn't want anyone to know from what information has been revealed in this thread.

Greetings!

The book, Devil's Guard, sounds awesome, Brad! I remember seeing a film long ago--black & white, about something similar. An SS officer escaped the ruins of the Reich in 1945, became a mercenary, and also got away with a huge stash of *platinum bars*. He ended up in Indo-China, and was pursued by an American OSS agent. Similar, but the film and the book you mentioned also remind me that, as a historian, it is true that Nazis did become mercenaries after the fall of the Reich. More than a few SS men joined the French Foreign Legion, and fought in wars in Africa, South America, and in South-East Asia. Their training, leadership skills, and ruthless and expert fighting abilities as warriors made them in *very high* demand.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM

Quote from: Brad on February 05, 2024, 10:13:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 01:20:01 AM
What is it with the woke and their total history illiteracy?

It doesn't fit their internalized narrative of "white man bad". It's actually hilariously racist to think about how all those poor brown people have always been oppressed and were never able to accomplish anything.

Speaking Aztecs, the only reason they got conquered by the Spanish is because of better tech. Anyone who doesn't think the Aztecs wouldn't have gotten on ships and taken over the Iberian peninsula if they had the means is a special kind of stupid.

Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

Greetings!

Hey Geeky! Yeah, I've read where the Spanish talked about how badass and absolutely fierce the Aztecs were! Not just the warriors, in battle, but the fight was carried on *for years* with the civilian population, resisting the Sanish, led by surviving veteran warriors and Pagan Aztec priests.

And yes, Cortez soon very early on gained a critical ally--an Aztec woman, I forgot her name. Maybe she was a noble, or a peasant. Either way, she became his lover, confidante, and a key adviser. The Spanish sources discuss how she spoke several native languages, and soon learned Spanish. She was especially important as an interpreter, but even more so, is that she guided Cortez in all of the political and tribal politics and relationships. Soon, Cortez recruited some 50,000 native warriors, from other tribes, to fight against the Aztecs. So, his few thousand Spanish soldiers were not alone.

The Aztecs were powerful, and tough, and while the Spanish had some key advantages in technology--the Aztecs had many, many enemies that were eager to help a group of newcomers in bringing the Aztec Empire to defeat. The Spanish were surprisingly few in relative numbers--but, from my reading, they were all elite, very determined and professional, and absolutely inspired by their faith in God, and in the Spanish Empire.

I remember reading how Pozzaro, and like 500 soldiers, were in South America, the Incas as I recall, and outnumbered by thousands. Facing certain death, the Spanish didn't flinch a muscle. Instead, they drew their swords, and fired their guns, valiantly leaping into ferocious combat against their enemies! Awe-inspiring toughness, and courage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK