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Do we have any Tekumel experts, on this forum?

I'm not an expert. But I took a deep dive into the setting a while back, and then again in the wake of certain unsettling revelations. MAR Barker was a Nazi, and if you look at the game through that lens, it's pretty clearly a Nazi game. It presents the extermination of native species to make way for living space for the colonists as a good thing. It follows that "cycles of history" pseudo-theory stuff that used to be popular in Nazi circles. If you stand back and look at the setting in broad terms, it's about a once powerful civilization that created a colony, before the civilization fell into decay, causing a rise of barbarism. The survivors created a new empire, and set about exterminating their foes, with whom peace was impossible because of their difference in natures.

The playable non-humans are weird. One is a mushroom people that live in filth. Another is a sort of turtle-bird that produces huge numbers of offspring from their bodies, but ignore and neglect them until they are to degree grown, regarding infant mortality as of little importance. I'm not sure if these are supposed to be nasty parodies or some or another group, but at least in retrospect, they seem kind of gross.

His chosen name, Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker, is rather similar to Abd al-Rahman al-Ghafiqi, who commanded the Islamic forces at the Battle of Tours. The Battle of Tour is widely considered an important turning point in the Christianization of Europe. Albert Speers recounts Hitler's lament (https://www.newyorker.com/news/george-packer/islamized-germans) about that battle. It's not hard to see Barker as one of those "intellectual Nazis" who considered Hitler's anti-Semitism to be an amusing obsession, but not a deal-breaker.

He published his pro-Nazi SS fiction under a synonym, so I guess he wasn't trying to beat everyone over the head with his politics. Just sly little references to his eugenics and historical classicism hobby horses.

I wonder how many gaming tables actually used Tekumel, back in the days of Original D&D?  I'm sure Greyhawk and Blackmoor were more popular, simply because of their association with the creators of D&D.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 01, 2024, 11:13:32 PM
I'm not an expert.

Duly noted.

Cycles of history is a common sword & sorcery trope (particularly in REH's stuff) and your analysis of the alien races isn't particularly convincing. MAR Barker may well have been a Fascist to a greater or lesser degree, but I have never felt Tekumel was especially so. All of it's concepts may also be found in history or the sci-fi and fantasy literature of the 20th century.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 02, 2024, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 01, 2024, 11:13:32 PM
I'm not an expert.

Duly noted.

Cycles of history is a common sword & sorcery trope (particularly in REH's stuff) and your analysis of the alien races isn't particularly convincing. MAR Barker may well have been a Fascist to a greater or lesser degree, but I have never felt Tekumel was especially so. All of it's concepts may also be found in history or the sci-fi and fantasy literature of the 20th century.

You're arguing with a Troll whose only "contribution" that I have seen is to derail topics with political bullshit.

Best to ignore him.

Ok, I see that later on; the author of Tekumel wrote some very unsavory stuff.

Was his earlier work Tekumel, of a usable nature; or is it held in question too, because of his later writings?  Was he always the person he was later revealed to be; or is it possible that he fell into that later in his writing career?  Some people become converted, to certain mindsets.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 01:19:13 AM
Ok, I see that later on; the author of Tekumel wrote some very unsavory stuff.

Was his earlier work Tekumel, of a usable nature; or is it held in question too, because of his later writings?  Was he always the person he was later revealed to be; or is it possible that he fell into that later in his writing career?  Some people become converted, to certain mindsets.

Does it make a difference? The guy is dead, neither him nor his family benefit from you playing in the setting, and AFAIK the setting has ZERO of his politics injected into it.

HP Lovecraft WAS a racist, does that mean we shouldn't read his books or play CoC? Is every publisher that uses his mythoss a bad person by proxy too?

I am not what anyone would call a Tekumel "expert" but I've read a fair bit of the material, both novels and games, and if the criterion for placement on The List is the degree of explicit political advocacy in a product, I would call everything Tekumel-related that I've seen definitely Green. However despicable M.A.R. Barker's real-life politics, there is no indication whatsoever that any Tekumel product ever made any serious attempt to proselytize them.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 01, 2024, 11:13:32 PMMAR Barker was a Nazi, and if you look at the game through that lens...

You're a living, breathing meme.

I have the Adventures in Tekumel set, all but 1 book I think.

Theres nothing "Nazi" in them and theres nothing Nazi in the novels. The Nazi sci-fi book he wrote isnt even all that Nazi. We went over this whole damn thing before. Why dredge it up again? This isnt Reddit where you can farm Karma.

Nobody who discussed Tekumel before Barker's views became known considered it nazi-adjacent. Too weird to use, yes. Unsavoury due to sexual and violent elements, sometimes. Nazi, they totally did nazi that. (Sorry.) You don't have those "Aha! Told you so in 2007!!!" blog posts either because nobody made them. If anything, Tekumel was cited as a positive example of a non-western setting. If nobody noticed, is it really there in a meaningful sense?

This seems to be a case where the art can be separated quite well from the artist.

There is also an element of chronology here. Was Barker a nazi from his youth, or did he become one later in life, once he had already developed and published his world? We don't know, because we don't know much about Barker in general. His life was a lot more private and obscure than Gygax's. He was active in a specialist academic field few people care about, and wrote niche material for a very small circle of dedicated fans. I don't recall any in-depth interviews with him which would have given us a deeper insight into his life and ideas (even if he tried to conceal some of them). What we have is a mystery that may never be properly solved, and wild speculation that may not reach far beyond the surface.

I have the original Tekumel, the GOO one, Gardasiyal, Tirikelu (which is free and probably the best actual game), and Swords and Glory. Two of these had no direct involvement from MAR Barker that I can find, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. They're dense as fuck and have a very consistent theme of a pseudo-ancient society that relies on near-magic technology (and some actual magic) given in the context of an Indian (dot, not feather) caste-based society if it was like 20 thousands years in the future. To me it's basically Dune but some backwater world that got sucked into a pocket universe and developed independently of anything else.

It's been said Barker was the only one who could run a Tekumel game, and I believe it. There are just too many moving pieces to give the setting justice. You CAN just run adventures in the underworld and do tech raids or whatever, typical D&D fare, but that's almost like playing Forgotten Realms and totally ignoring the gods, the time of troubles, the harpers, etc. Kind of defeats the entire purpose of using the game world.

RE: Nazi crap, I saw that mentioned on this messageboard a while back and literally DGAF. Barker was so involved and invested in Hindu culture I wouldn't doubt he had a couple old school swastikas and some retard took it the wrong way. Dredging up this sort of garbage is a waste of everyone's time.

I run FR without Time of Troubles, and usually without Harpers either. And generally distant non meddling gods. Seems to work.

Barker wrote for an actual neo-Nazi journal. This isn't a misunderstanding. OTOH no one ever saw anything Nazi in Tekumel before they were aware of this.

I'm changing my mind about cancel culture. If the left wants to have blacklists so bad, let's add communists.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 01, 2024, 11:13:32 PM
I'm not an expert. But I took a deep dive into the setting a while back, and then again in the wake of certain unsettling revelations. MAR Barker was a Nazi, and if you look at the game through that lens, it's pretty clearly a Nazi game. It presents the extermination of native species to make way for living space for the colonists as a good thing. It follows that "cycles of history" pseudo-theory stuff that used to be popular in Nazi circles. If you stand back and look at the setting in broad terms, it's about a once powerful civilization that created a colony, before the civilization fell into decay, causing a rise of barbarism. The survivors created a new empire, and set about exterminating their foes, with whom peace was impossible because of their difference in natures.

The playable non-humans are weird. One is a mushroom people that live in filth. Another is a sort of turtle-bird that produces huge numbers of offspring from their bodies, but ignore and neglect them until they are to degree grown, regarding infant mortality as of little importance. I'm not sure if these are supposed to be nasty parodies or some or another group, but at least in retrospect, they seem kind of gross.

Well, at least we agree on the first part.  I've never even heard of this setting/game/universe let alone been invested in it as a reader or player but it's obvious that your own very strong bias is not just coloring but completely obscuring your world view of fiction with fascists hiding under every rock, leaf, and napkin that you feel obligated to call out.   

As for my opinion, I'm mostly basing it on what I've read here so feel free to correct me on any FACTUAL inaccuracies the article contains:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A9kumel

From reading that, it's obvious that he's trying to base his FICTIONAL universe on how things turned out in the real world both with regard to science as well as history.   He's not necessarily presenting the colonization and subjugation of native FICTIONAL aliens as a moral good but rather as something that was beneficial to the conquering society based on that article (again, feel free to post FACTUAL proof with quotes and not just feelings if the article is incorrect).  That's how colonization/conquering actually works and most societies wouldn't go to war with others if they didn't think there was a tangible long term benefit to them.  Obviously it's horrendously bad to the losers of that conflict though which he also shows as well as showing them rebelling successfully apparently in the future when the power dynamic shifts.

As for the depictions of the aliens, you're again letting your bias cloud what you're actually reading that seems to be a genuine attempt to base FICTIONAL alien species in some semblance of real world science.   Mushrooms DO grow in filth and sea turtles DO famously lay clutches of dozens of eggs which they then abandon.  It's obvious to someone with more than just an obsession with identity politics that the author is attempting in part to base his aliens in something science based and not as an analog to human societies but your own biases blind you to that.  It's difficult for me to take your comments about the above colonization seriously when you obviously almost to the point of parody post your opinions on the alien species and your assumed motivations behind their characterizations.

Again, I have ZERO interest in this author's work after being introduced to it and never even heard of it so I don't have a... I don't even know which analogy to use here because they're all likely triggering for you.  Damsel in distress?  Patriarchial!   Dog in the fight?  Animal cruelty!  I'll just go with "care in the world"...   I just figured I'd point out the obvious parts that you are missing.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 02, 2024, 08:41:15 AM
I'm changing my mind about cancel culture. If the left wants to have blacklists so bad, let's add communists.

No need as they eventually add each other in typical circular firing squad fashion.   The first people lined up in the dark alley are those who opposed them; the second group line up is the fragile cohort of idealogues who thought they were ultimately doing a moral good despite the immediate evil.  That just leaves the strongmen and butchers left to fight amongst themselves for the societal scraps.

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 07:04:22 AM
RE: Nazi crap, I saw that mentioned on this messageboard a while back and literally DGAF. Barker was so involved and invested in Hindu culture I wouldn't doubt he had a couple old school swastikas and some retard took it the wrong way. Dredging up this sort of garbage is a waste of everyone's time.

Barker wrote a neo-Nazi science-fiction novel under a pseudonym that was published by National Vanguard Books, the publishing arm of the neo-Nazi organization the National Alliance, which also published the infamous novel The Turner Diaries.  He also spent more than a decade on the advisory board of a journal that specialized in holocaust denialism.  This isn't a case of someone hyperventilating over a misinterpreted swastika.

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 09:01:48 AM

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 07:04:22 AM
RE: Nazi crap, I saw that mentioned on this messageboard a while back and literally DGAF. Barker was so involved and invested in Hindu culture I wouldn't doubt he had a couple old school swastikas and some retard took it the wrong way. Dredging up this sort of garbage is a waste of everyone's time.

Barker wrote a neo-Nazi science-fiction novel under a pseudonym that was published by National Vanguard Books, the publishing arm of the neo-Nazi organization the National Alliance, which also published the infamous novel The Turner Diaries.  He also spent more than a decade on the advisory board of a journal that specialized in holocaust denialism.  This isn't a case of someone hyperventilating over a misinterpreted swastika.

Unless playing or reading the game is transforming people into card carrying nazis it's largely irrelevant what Barker believed.

Quote from: S'mon on February 02, 2024, 08:18:26 AM
I run FR without Time of Troubles, and usually without Harpers either. And generally distant non meddling gods. Seems to work.

Fair enough, but that's exactly my point about Tekumel. You CAN sort of handwave all the social stuff and do dungeon delves, but it's really not taking full advantage of the game world. Not that I like FR whatsoever...

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 09:01:48 AM
Barker wrote a neo-Nazi science-fiction novel under a pseudonym that was published by National Vanguard Books, the publishing arm of the neo-Nazi organization the National Alliance, which also published the infamous novel The Turner Diaries.  He also spent more than a decade on the advisory board of a journal that specialized in holocaust denialism.  This isn't a case of someone hyperventilating over a misinterpreted swastika.

Okay, so? I literally had no idea any of this was a real thing and still DGAF. It has nothing to do with Tekumel, so it has nothing to do with me. I am not going to real Nazi novels or supprt that crap, hence irrelevant. This is the same horseshit argument against HPL currently being toted around...oh he was RACIST! RACIST I TELL YOU!!! Yeah who cares, he wrote good stories. REH was a fucking absolute maniac and probably had severe mental illness, Conan is still one of the best characters in the modern era.

Just keep wringing hands over shit that has zero impact on your life! I choose to not care.

Quote from: Llew ap Hywel on February 02, 2024, 09:06:52 AM
Unless playing or reading the game is transforming people into card carrying nazis it's largely irrelevant what Barker believed.

I corrected to an incorrect claim, which I helpfully quoted so that people could see exactly what I was referring to.  My post is directly relevant to the post that I responded to.

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 09:28:37 AM
Okay, so? I literally had no idea any of this was a real thing and still DGAF. It has nothing to do with Tekumel, so it has nothing to do with me. I am not going to real Nazi novels or supprt that crap, hence irrelevant. This is the same horseshit argument against HPL currently being toted around...oh he was RACIST! RACIST I TELL YOU!!! Yeah who cares, he wrote good stories. REH was a fucking absolute maniac and probably had severe mental illness, Conan is still one of the best characters in the modern era.

Just keep wringing hands over shit that has zero impact on your life! I choose to not care.

If it was irrelevant, you wouldn't have suggested that people who think that Barker was a Nazi were just misinterpreting his interest in Hinduism.  Barker wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a prominent neo-Nazi organization, and he also served on the advisory board of a publication dedicated to holocaust denialism.  These are simple facts.

I'm not wringing my hands over anything.  You made an incorrect claim.  I corrected it.  I didn't say anything about whether people should enjoy Tekumel or not.  I certainly didn't say anything about H.P. Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard.

Let's try and apply a bit of perspective to the human flaws of Professor Barker. First and foremost, he was a Muslim convert, and from what I can glean, a rather fervent one at that. Is anyone alive today in the least bit surprised that a devout Muslim might harbor antisemitic beliefs? These days, antisemitism is crawling out from under rocks in US universities, for heaven's sake; Never mind on some of the more uncensored social media platforms (Looking at you, Gab). Barker was an anti-Semite, but not a fascist, Nazi, nor, from what I can see, a racist. The man created an entire world with zero white people inhabiting it. Yes, he wrote fiction about Nazis, and worked with holocaust deniers. That's where the other anti-Semites were hanging out in those days, as opposed to marching in the streets and holding sit ins in Universities. And he seems to have taken great pains to keep his antisemitism separate from his gaming activities. Even those close to him, among them members of the Tekumel Foundation, were gobsmacked when the information of his extracurricular activities came to light.

As someone whose first experience in TTRPGs was in the original Empire of The Petal Throne, I have a soft spot in my gamer's heart for the Tekumel setting. I have no problem segregating the man from his creation, if that is what I must do. I leave any ultimate judgement of Professor Barker to those who knew him well, and to the god he worshiped.

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 09:55:06 AM
I'm not wringing my hands over anything.  You made an incorrect claim.  I corrected it.  I didn't say anything about whether people should enjoy Tekumel or not.  I certainly didn't say anything about H.P. Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard.

I was making an analogy about how stupid this whole thing is, "the royal your". Again, I could care less if Barker was goosestepping at Auschwitz in his later life, that in no way affects Tekumel which has zero to do with Nazism. It is 100% irrelevant and, again, I was simply dismissing the entire argument as stupid. This is the same bullshit that is occurring in Real Time right now, removing statues of fucking Thomas Jefferson because he owned slaves or something. So? Does this in any way diminish his contributions to Western civilization? Using this logic, the Constitution should be shredded and Marxism instituted in whole to remove the stain of such a horrid man. Oh, that's exactly what's happening.

Communists are not people. The End.

Quote from: Melan on February 02, 2024, 06:54:07 AM
Nobody who discussed Tekumel before Barker's views became known considered it nazi-adjacent. Too weird to use, yes. Unsavoury due to sexual and violent elements, sometimes. Nazi, they totally did nazi that. (Sorry.) You don't have those "Aha! Told you so in 2007!!!" blog posts either because nobody made them. If anything, Tekumel was cited as a positive example of a non-western setting. If nobody noticed, is it really there in a meaningful sense?

This seems to be a case where the art can be separated quite well from the artist.

There is also an element of chronology here. Was Barker a nazi from his youth, or did he become one later in life, once he had already developed and published his world? We don't know, because we don't know much about Barker in general. His life was a lot more private and obscure than Gygax's. He was active in a specialist academic field few people care about, and wrote niche material for a very small circle of dedicated fans. I don't recall any in-depth interviews with him which would have given us a deeper insight into his life and ideas (even if he tried to conceal some of them). What we have is a mystery that may never be properly solved, and wild speculation that may not reach far beyond the surface.

Thank you, for your thoughtful reply.

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 07:04:22 AM
I have the original Tekumel, the GOO one, Gardasiyal, Tirikelu (which is free and probably the best actual game), and Swords and Glory. Two of these had no direct involvement from MAR Barker that I can find, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. They're dense as fuck and have a very consistent theme of a pseudo-ancient society that relies on near-magic technology (and some actual magic) given in the context of an Indian (dot, not feather) caste-based society if it was like 20 thousands years in the future. To me it's basically Dune but some backwater world that got sucked into a pocket universe and developed independently of anything else.

It's been said Barker was the only one who could run a Tekumel game, and I believe it. There are just too many moving pieces to give the setting justice. You CAN just run adventures in the underworld and do tech raids or whatever, typical D&D fare, but that's almost like playing Forgotten Realms and totally ignoring the gods, the time of troubles, the harpers, etc. Kind of defeats the entire purpose of using the game world.

RE: Nazi crap, I saw that mentioned on this messageboard a while back and literally DGAF. Barker was so involved and invested in Hindu culture I wouldn't doubt he had a couple old school swastikas and some retard took it the wrong way. Dredging up this sort of garbage is a waste of everyone's time.

Thank you, for your informative reply.

I have seen accusations of racism and fascism leveled at all kinds of people that just don't bear tight scrutiny.  Here's a couple:

1.  Henry Ford - Supposedly, he was a big supporter of Hitler so he's a racist and a fascist.  Here's the problem, Hitler was Time Magazine's Man of the Year because he pulled Germany out of an economic death spiral.  His early efforts considerably raised the quality of life for the German people that were truly suffering.  This was during the Great Depression that was seeing Americans starving to death and America was doing better than Germany in 1935.  The horrors of WW!! like the holocaust weren't well known until the concentration camp liberation in 1945; there had been some rumors but many of them had been "debunked."  Once Henry Ford saw what was going on as it really was, he backed the US and the allies 100%.  Many, many prominent figures in the US and in the broader world were pro-fascist up until the late 30s.

2.  H.P. Lovecraft - He gets slammed for racism frequently.  There's all kinds of "proof" from his depictions of various groups in his writings to the name of his cat.  First, the guy was born in 1890 and died in 1937 living his entire life in New England.  He had never met people from the various groups he supposedly hated nor did he take any social or political stance that in any way hurt or hindered any group.  A more honest evaluation would be an exploration of his fear of the unknown and his social anxiety in the language and terms he was familiar with.  In truth, except for a few letters he exchanged with some friends (Robert E Howard being a big one) and his books, there's almost nothing to judge his character with.  We can say that there was probably something wrong with him due to the fact he was a social recluse and he reacted in fear to exchanges with his own neighbors.  The way I see it, he was a flawed man with mental health needs that was doing the best he could while the cancel mob picks a few features to condemn him to woke hell for.

I know very little about Barker but given I am familiar with the leading lights pushing for white supremacy, I doubt he was a NAZI.  Tekumel material I've read doesn't reflect any of the white supremacy ideologies or basic moral or social assumptions I would associate with it.

Given some the posts above, I feel it's important to point out that Serpent's Walk, by MAR Barker, is a novel about heroic SS soldiers.

Quote from: The back cover
"Serpent's Walk ... assumes that Hitler's warrior elite - the SS - didn't give up their struggle for a White world when they lost the Second World War. Instead their survivors went underground and adopted some of the tactics of their enemies: they began building their economic muscle and buying into the opinion-forming media. A century after the war they are ready to challenge the democrats and Jews for the hearts and minds of White Americans, who have begun to have their fill of government-enforced multi-culturalism and "equality."

So actual Nazi stuff. Barker was literally a neo-Nazi.

For convenience, here's a link to the Tekumel Foundation statement (https://www.tekumelfoundation.org/post/the-tekumel-foundations-board-of-directors-statement-on-serpents-walk) on Serpent's Walk. It's pretty tepid, but this should make it at least clear that MAR Barker's Nazi hobby is an acknowledged fact, even by the publishers of his RPG work.

If anyone wants to know why a neo-Nazi would be fascinated by dark-skinned, indigenous people, let me help you: it's not uncommon. Literally, most of Europe decided they wanted a piece of Africa, they had to have what the Africans were having. Same thing in the Americas. They fucking loved walking around in their pit helms being carried by human beings on litters. You can't be a master race, without an inferior race to lord over. Barker is also not the only European intellectual to decide Islam was better than Christianity, even while harboring his own racial, class, and ethnic prejudices. Terms like "exoticism" and "Orientalism" exist to describe this fascination some Europeans have with other cultures, even while demeaning their intrinisic worth or shitting on the same cultural achievements they find so charming. That's just garden variety racism, you don't even have to be a Nazi for that.

Nazis admired "primitive," warlike, "savage," people. They simply though they were better. They did not any issue with the concept of a warrior race, they considered themselves one. Their attitude was not one of moral condemnation but simply condescension.

Even though this place often devolves to a low level of discourse, I am honestly a little disappointed at the number of people here willing to state on record they are fine with Nazis.

As for Tekumel itself... it's one thing to read it and think, okay, this reflects certain worldviews and prejudices of the author. It's another to recognize, okay, this is a book that reflects the ideological lean of a Nazi. It's just uncomfortable, and it's not something I care to go through just to play a game where people have blue swords and I have to learn a new alphabet. Tekumel had an exalted place in RPG history. That legacy has been tainted, not simply through association with a deeply flawed and evil author, but as a source of inspiration. I don't trust it, and I think it will be along time before I'll be able to look at it coolly and dispassionately.

That is not to say that you can't read, enjoy, perhaps even play it. I'm sure the Tekumel Foundation people aren't ideological white supremacists. I just think it's important to know what it is.

Quote from: BadApple on February 02, 2024, 01:11:07 PM
I have seen accusations of racism and fascism leveled at all kinds of people that just don't bear tight scrutiny.  Here's a couple:

1.  Henry Ford - Supposedly, he was a big supporter of Hitler so he's a racist and a fascist.  Here's the problem, Hitler was Time Magazine's Man of the Year because he pulled Germany out of an economic death spiral.  His early efforts considerably raised the quality of life for the German people that were truly suffering.  This was during the Great Depression that was seeing Americans starving to death and America was doing better than Germany in 1935.  The horrors of WW!! like the holocaust weren't well known until the concentration camp liberation in 1945; there had been some rumors but many of them had been "debunked."  Once Henry Ford saw what was going on as it really was, he backed the US and the allies 100%.  Many, many prominent figures in the US and in the broader world were pro-fascist up until the late 30s.

People don't say that Henry Ford was an antisemite because he admired Hitler's economic miracle.  People say that Henry Ford was an antisemite because it's a well-documented fact that he hated the Jews and promoted Jew hatred.  After he took over his hometown newspaper, he published antisemitic articles under his byline for many years, collecting them into a series of booklets he called The International Jew.

You also have it exactly the wrong way around.  It was actually Hitler who admired Ford.  Hitler was known to keep a prominent photograph of Ford in his office, and he even said this in 1923 (https://www.newspapers.com/article/chicago-tribune/67239253/):

Quote"I wish that I could send some of my shock troops to Chicago and other big American cities to help in the elections," the young leader of the Bavarian Fascisti party said grimly. "We look on Heinrich Ford as the leader of the growing Fascisti movement in America. We admire particularly his anti-Jewish policy which is the Bavarian Fascisti platform. We have just had his anti-Jewish articles translated and published. The book is being circulated to millions throughout Germany."

Ford ended up with several libel suits being brought against him by Jews he had named as part of the conspiracy and lied about.  Although the first was declared a mistrial, it was utterly embarrassing for Ford, and he quickly settled out of court.  He negotiated an agreement with the American Jewish Committee, promising to stop publishing antisemitic materials.

I'm going to stop there, because this is obviously getting way beyond roleplaying games.

Quote from: BadApple on February 02, 2024, 01:11:07 PM
I know very little about Barker but given I am familiar with the leading lights pushing for white supremacy, I doubt he was a NAZI.  Tekumel material I've read doesn't reflect any of the white supremacy ideologies or basic moral or social assumptions I would associate with it.

The National Alliance was a neo-Nazi organization.  National Vanguard was its publishing arm.  Those things weren't secret at the time Barker submitted his book and had it published.  The book itself promotes neo-Nazism, directly (through its subject matter) and indirectly (through the ad for The Turner Diaries and Hunter at the back of the book). 

Barker also sat on the advisory committee of the Journal of Historical Review for over a decade.  Mark Weber, the publication's editor-in-chief for most of the time that Barker was on the committee, had not only been a member of the National Alliance, but had been the editor of its magazine, National Vanguard (which the publishing company was named after).  The whole reason that the Journal existed was to give holocaust denialism an academic gloss. 

You may doubt that Barker was a Nazi, but the evidence strongly suggests otherwise.  I might buy that he had somehow naively stumbled onto the advisory committee of the Journal, if not for the fact that he had a neo-Nazi novel published by a neo-Nazi organization.

I'm not one to tell people how to spend their time, so I have no opinion on whether or not people should enjoy his work.  However, I think it's a really bad idea to soft pedal the guy's neo-Nazi associations.

Yet another thread pawsplay has managed to derail onto politics...

Yes, Barker WAS an anti-semite and probably a neo-nazi...

So. Fucking. What!?

Is any of that in Tekumel? or any of his other gaming materials?

NO! Ergo, since the POS is dead and won't benefit from people playing his shit, who fucking cares what kind of lunatic the guy was?

I'm in the interesting to read, but too weird to play camp.  The language elements that he so loved are a major barrier for me and thus making it unplayable.  When I read the white box back in the day, I did not get that Nazi vibe.  I guess I should re-read it as some point and see if that still holds true.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2024, 01:34:30 AM
HP Lovecraft WAS a racist, does that mean we shouldn't read his books or play CoC? Is every publisher that uses his mythoss a bad person by proxy too?

Yes, unless you devote a portion of your word count to reminding readers that he was racist and racism is bad.  Bonus virtue signaling points if you say he was a misogynist too (not that he was, but it helps separate the folks who've read up on the guy from the ones who Have Something Important To Say).

If you don't do that, expect "helpful" people to call out your hate crime.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2024, 03:22:48 PM
Is any of that in Tekumel? or any of his other gaming materials?

Immaterial in the first place, and it's not by any reasonable metric, anyway. That's not the point of what's going on here, though. "This COULD be a problem" will soon be "this IS a problem" very shortly, so unless you start bending the knee immediately they're going to dredge up any good thing you said about Tekumel as being proof positive you're a literal Nazi. Might take a couple years, but it's going to happen.

Oh and if you bend the knee, they're just gonna chop your fucking head off first.

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 03:08:55 PM

Quote from: BadApple on February 02, 2024, 01:11:07 PM
I have seen accusations of racism and fascism leveled at all kinds of people that just don't bear tight scrutiny.  Here's a couple:

1.  Henry Ford - Supposedly, he was a big supporter of Hitler so he's a racist and a fascist.  Here's the problem, Hitler was Time Magazine's Man of the Year because he pulled Germany out of an economic death spiral.  His early efforts considerably raised the quality of life for the German people that were truly suffering.  This was during the Great Depression that was seeing Americans starving to death and America was doing better than Germany in 1935.  The horrors of WW!! like the holocaust weren't well known until the concentration camp liberation in 1945; there had been some rumors but many of them had been "debunked."  Once Henry Ford saw what was going on as it really was, he backed the US and the allies 100%.  Many, many prominent figures in the US and in the broader world were pro-fascist up until the late 30s.

People don't say that Henry Ford was an antisemite because he admired Hitler's economic miracle.  People say that Henry Ford was an antisemite because it's a well-documented fact that he hated the Jews and promoted Jew hatred.  After he took over his hometown newspaper, he published antisemitic articles under his byline for many years, collecting them into a series of booklets he called The International Jew.

You also have it exactly the wrong way around.  It was actually Hitler who admired Ford.  Hitler was known to keep a prominent photograph of Ford in his office, and he even said this in 1923 (https://www.newspapers.com/article/chicago-tribune/67239253/):

Quote"I wish that I could send some of my shock troops to Chicago and other big American cities to help in the elections," the young leader of the Bavarian Fascisti party said grimly. "We look on Heinrich Ford as the leader of the growing Fascisti movement in America. We admire particularly his anti-Jewish policy which is the Bavarian Fascisti platform. We have just had his anti-Jewish articles translated and published. The book is being circulated to millions throughout Germany."

Ford ended up with several libel suits being brought against him by Jews he had named as part of the conspiracy and lied about.  Although the first was declared a mistrial, it was utterly embarrassing for Ford, and he quickly settled out of court.  He negotiated an agreement with the American Jewish Committee, promising to stop publishing antisemitic materials.

I'm going to stop there, because this is obviously getting way beyond roleplaying games.

Most of the world was anti-semitic in the early 1900s. That's why in the wake of World War 2, it was determined that the Jewish people needed a country of their own.

For that matter, we westerners think that racism is a great moral sin today, but the unfortunate reality is that the overwhelming majority of humanity is still intensely racist. It's only a rather small, predominantly white percentage of humanity that actually thinks racism is bad.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 02, 2024, 05:04:11 PM
Most of the world was anti-semitic in the early 1900s. That's why in the wake of World War 2, it was determined that the Jewish people needed a country of their own.

Talking about the overall degree of antisemitism in the early 20th century is complicated, and I am not interested in taking this conversation in that direction.  I'll just say that if you do any reading on Ford, you'll find that even a lot of his contemporaries thought his hatred of the Jews was over the top at the time.  That should be obvious, as you'd be hard pressed to find another figure of his stature who bought a newspaper to air his antisemitic conspiracy theories, repackaged those theories as a series of booklets that he sold through his automobile dealerships, and was sued for libel by several specific Jews that he outright lied about.  On top of that, the most infamous Jew hater of all time cited him as an inspiration.  "Most of the world" may have been antisemitic, but Hitler didn't cite most of the world as an inspiration or recommend most of the world's books exposing the international Jewish conspiracy.

But this has nothing to do with roleplaying or any figures involved in roleplaying, so I'm going to leave it at that.

So many RPG content creators are accused and accosted, because they didn't live perfect lives from birth to death.  The loud screeching about nearly everyone and everything, makes it difficult to narrow down your focus; and decide what is good content creation, and what isn't.

I am not a Nazi.  I am not anti-semitic.  I am not an expert on the lives of the creators of every book I own.  I do like D&D / Sword & Sorcery type fantasy RPG content.  I also like coffee.

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 04:36:18 PM
Immaterial in the first place, and it's not by any reasonable metric, anyway. That's not the point of what's going on here, though. "This COULD be a problem" will soon be "this IS a problem" very shortly, so unless you start bending the knee immediately they're going to dredge up any good thing you said about Tekumel as being proof positive you're a literal Nazi. Might take a couple years, but it's going to happen.

Oh and if you bend the knee, they're just gonna chop your fucking head off first.

As I've already said, I'm not one to tell anyone how they should spend their time.  I do not care in the slightest if you enjoy Tekumel and, whether you believe it or not, I'm not interested in going after people who do.  I can promise you that I am never going to call anyone a Nazi for enjoying Tekumel.

However, if someone claims that Barker probably wasn't a Nazi and suggests that the whole thing might be an overreaction to his interest in Hinduism?  I'm going to point out that Barker wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a neo-Nazi organization and that he sat on the advisory committee of a publication that was designed to give cover to Nazis and others engaged in holocaust denialism.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 09:11:54 PM
So many RPG content creators are accused and accosted, because they didn't live perfect lives from birth to death.  The loud screeching about nearly everyone and everything, makes it difficult to narrow down your focus; and decide what is good content creation, and what isn't.

My issue with Barker isn't that he didn't lead a perfect life.  It's that he wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a neo-Nazi organization and sat on the advisory committee of a publication devoted to holocaust denialism for more than a decade.  If you enjoy Tekumel, then enjoy Tekumel.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 09:11:54 PM
So many RPG content creators are accused and accosted, because they didn't live perfect lives from birth to death.  The loud screeching about nearly everyone and everything, makes it difficult to narrow down your focus; and decide what is good content creation, and what isn't.

I am not a Nazi.  I am not anti-semitic.  I am not an expert on the lives of the creators of every book I own.  I do like D&D / Sword & Sorcery type fantasy RPG content.  I also like coffee.

Them: He's a Nazi.
You: Well, nobody's perfect.

Get out of town! LOL.

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 09:41:10 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 04:36:18 PM
Immaterial in the first place, and it's not by any reasonable metric, anyway. That's not the point of what's going on here, though. "This COULD be a problem" will soon be "this IS a problem" very shortly, so unless you start bending the knee immediately they're going to dredge up any good thing you said about Tekumel as being proof positive you're a literal Nazi. Might take a couple years, but it's going to happen.

Oh and if you bend the knee, they're just gonna chop your fucking head off first.

As I've already said, I'm not one to tell anyone how they should spend their time.  I do not care in the slightest if you enjoy Tekumel and, whether you believe it or not, I'm not interested in going after people who do.  I can promise you that I am never going to call anyone a Nazi for enjoying Tekumel.

However, if someone claims that Barker probably wasn't a Nazi and suggests that the whole thing might be an overreaction to his interest in Hinduism?  I'm going to point out that Barker wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a neo-Nazi organization and that he sat on the advisory committee of a publication that was designed to give cover to Nazis and others engaged in holocaust denialism.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 09:11:54 PM
So many RPG content creators are accused and accosted, because they didn't live perfect lives from birth to death.  The loud screeching about nearly everyone and everything, makes it difficult to narrow down your focus; and decide what is good content creation, and what isn't.

My issue with Barker isn't that he didn't lead a perfect life.  It's that he wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a neo-Nazi organization and sat on the advisory committee of a publication devoted to holocaust denialism for more than a decade.  If you enjoy Tekumel, then enjoy Tekumel.

How is the novel, it's publisher or the organization in any way relevant to the question of if Tekumel is any good?

Like I said before, this is yet ANOTHER thread pawsplay has managed to derail with political bullshit, can we please just ignore that fucking Troll?

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 07:04:22 AM
I have the original Tekumel, the GOO one, Gardasiyal, Tirikelu (which is free and probably the best actual game), and Swords and Glory. Two of these had no direct involvement from MAR Barker that I can find, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. They're dense as fuck and have a very consistent theme of a pseudo-ancient society that relies on near-magic technology (and some actual magic) given in the context of an Indian (dot, not feather) caste-based society if it was like 20 thousands years in the future. To me it's basically Dune but some backwater world that got sucked into a pocket universe and developed independently of anything else.

It's been said Barker was the only one who could run a Tekumel game, and I believe it. There are just too many moving pieces to give the setting justice. You CAN just run adventures in the underworld and do tech raids or whatever, typical D&D fare, but that's almost like playing Forgotten Realms and totally ignoring the gods, the time of troubles, the harpers, etc. Kind of defeats the entire purpose of using the game world.

RE: Nazi crap, I saw that mentioned on this messageboard a while back and literally DGAF. Barker was so involved and invested in Hindu culture I wouldn't doubt he had a couple old school swastikas and some retard took it the wrong way. Dredging up this sort of garbage is a waste of everyone's time.

So it's a dense setting to master and run a campaign in, which features a caste-based society; and if you're just running one shots etc., the uniqueness of the setting is not being realized.  That doesn't sound like a good fit for me.  I heard the name mentioned amongst the early settings for OD&D, and was a bit curious.  OD&D has wonderful nostalgia.  The birthing of the genre, etc.

Tekumel is super cool, and obviously he did what he could to keep his politics out of the game.  One way you know this is true is that, until an old book was found after his death, no one ever once put up any complaint against his stuff.  So everything you see people saying now, they just made all that up to try to cancel something that will never be woke.

I guess the glory of theRPGSite is that here you get to see equally silly aguments made from both the Progressive Left and the Libertarian Right.  ;D Most RPG places are orthodox hard Progessive Left, those that aren't are usually strict no-politics. This place reminds me that while I sympathise more with the Libertarians, anyone can make a silly argument.  :D

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2024, 09:51:06 PM

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 09:41:10 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 09:11:54 PM
So many RPG content creators are accused and accosted, because they didn't live perfect lives from birth to death.  The loud screeching about nearly everyone and everything, makes it difficult to narrow down your focus; and decide what is good content creation, and what isn't.

My issue with Barker isn't that he didn't lead a perfect life.  It's that he wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a neo-Nazi organization and sat on the advisory committee of a publication devoted to holocaust denialism for more than a decade.  If you enjoy Tekumel, then enjoy Tekumel.

How is the novel, it's publisher or the organization in any way relevant to the question of if Tekumel is any good?

For some people, it's important that creators be decent people, and they see Ocule's list as helping mark that. For example, in the "Worst People You Have Never Met" thread, Thorn Drumheller expressed it as:

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 31, 2024, 05:51:08 PM
if anything, this whole twatgate rpgdrama had reminded me of Ocule's list. I really will only support creators who I know are decent.

Personally, I don't see much relevance, but then, I also don't see relevance between Steve Jackson supporting abortion rights and the quality of GURPS as a system.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 11:54:43 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2024, 09:51:06 PM

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 09:41:10 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 09:11:54 PM
So many RPG content creators are accused and accosted, because they didn't live perfect lives from birth to death.  The loud screeching about nearly everyone and everything, makes it difficult to narrow down your focus; and decide what is good content creation, and what isn't.

My issue with Barker isn't that he didn't lead a perfect life.  It's that he wrote a neo-Nazi novel that was published by a neo-Nazi organization and sat on the advisory committee of a publication devoted to holocaust denialism for more than a decade.  If you enjoy Tekumel, then enjoy Tekumel.

How is the novel, it's publisher or the organization in any way relevant to the question of if Tekumel is any good?

For some people, it's important that creators be decent people, and they see Ocule's list as helping mark that. For example, in the "Worst People You Have Never Met" thread, Thorn Drumheller expressed it as:

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 31, 2024, 05:51:08 PM
if anything, this whole twatgate rpgdrama had reminded me of Ocule's list. I really will only support creators who I know are decent.

Personally, I don't see much relevance, but then, I also don't see relevance between Steve Jackson supporting abortion rights and the quality of GURPS as a system.

Why do you ALWAYS have to equivocate and make false equivalences?

If you buy Tekumel, does any of that money go to support neo-nazis? Answer: NO.

If you buy anything from SJG, does any of that money go to support murdering babies? Answer: YES.

So, to anyone not trying to make a "who cares, muh both sides" false equivalence there's an obvious difference here.

Do you seriously think if buying Tekumel funded neo-nazis I would be arguing for it?

Regardless of M.A.R.Bs personal political beliefs, so little of it was reflected in Tekumel that many in the LGBT community actively claimed it as their own, and the current guiding voices of the foundation are as left leaning as you can get. The numerous posts on Tekumel and its foundation on this forum are perhaps the most authentic historical record on the matter if you're into that.

Quote from: Quasquetonian on February 02, 2024, 03:08:55 PM
I'm going to stop there, because this is obviously getting way beyond roleplaying games.

Nevertheless I appreciate the history lesson.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2024, 03:22:48 PM
Yet another thread pawsplay has managed to derail onto politics...

Yes, Barker WAS an anti-semite and probably a neo-nazi...

So. Fucking. What!?

Is any of that in Tekumel? or any of his other gaming materials?

NO! Ergo, since the POS is dead and won't benefit from people playing his shit, who fucking cares what kind of lunatic the guy was?

I don't feel his intervention up to this point is a derailment. Some posters were claiming that it was probably a lie that Barker was a neo-nazi, others were saying he might have been racist but was not a full on nazi-supporter; and pawsplay provided the truth, which is that Barker was a member of a  neo-nazi organization for decades and wrote a novel about heroic SS resistance fighters. It was made relevant by other posters trying to claim Barker was not actually what he has been proven to be.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 11:54:43 AM
For some people, it's important that creators be decent people, and they see Ocule's list as helping mark that. For example, in the "Worst People You Have Never Met" thread, Thorn Drumheller expressed it as:

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 31, 2024, 05:51:08 PM
if anything, this whole twatgate rpgdrama had reminded me of Ocule's list. I really will only support creators who I know are decent.

Personally, I don't see much relevance, but then, I also don't see relevance between Steve Jackson supporting abortion rights and the quality of GURPS as a system.

Oh man, I got a citation....I'm hittin the big time :D

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 12:36:22 PM

For some people, it's important that creators be decent people, and they see Ocule's list as helping mark that. For example, in the "Worst People You Have Never Met" thread, Thorn Drumheller expressed it as:

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 31, 2024, 05:51:08 PM
if anything, this whole twatgate rpgdrama had reminded me of Ocule's list. I really will only support creators who I know are decent.

Personally, I don't see much relevance, but then, I also don't see relevance between Steve Jackson supporting abortion rights and the quality of GURPS as a system.

Why do you ALWAYS have to equivocate and make false equivalences?

If you buy Tekumel, does any of that money go to support neo-nazis? Answer: NO.

If you buy anything from SJG, does any of that money go to support murdering babies? Answer: YES.

So, to anyone not trying to make a "who cares, muh both sides" false equivalence there's an obvious difference here.

Do you seriously think if buying Tekumel funded neo-nazis I would be arguing for it?
[/quote]

Yeah, I agree with Geeky here jhkim. You're being pretty disingenuous. There's a difference in who I want my money to go and support, especially with living, present day creators.

But like I said, you do you. Buy what you want.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 12:36:22 PM
Why do you ALWAYS have to equivocate and make false equivalences?

If you buy Tekumel, does any of that money go to support neo-nazis? Answer: NO.

If you buy anything from SJG, does any of that money go to support murdering babies? Answer: YES.

So, to anyone not trying to make a "who cares, muh both sides" false equivalence there's an obvious difference here.

Do you seriously think if buying Tekumel funded neo-nazis I would be arguing for it?

Well. The Tekumel Foundation new the truth for years and sat on it. I do have some reservations about supporting their endeavors. Tekumel isn't a big money maker, but there's some clout there, for some people, in some circles. And someone thought clout was more important than an honest disclosure. So. Do with that what you will.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 03, 2024, 01:45:21 PM
Some posters were claiming that it was probably a lie that Barker was a neo-nazi, others were saying he might have been racist but was not a full on nazi-supporter; and pawsplay provided the truth, which is that Barker was a member of a  neo-nazi organization for decades and wrote a novel about heroic SS resistance fighters. It was made relevant by other posters trying to claim Barker was not actually what he has been proven to be.

Barker never got a chance to explain what his beliefs actually were in life. If no one had found evidence whilst going through his belongings, no one would have known.  It's pretty obvious that for at least awhile he held some set of antisemitic beliefs, because you don't accidentally write a book where Nazis are heroes and then sit on a Holocaust investigation board or whatever, but a lot of the conclusions of his detractors are best-guesses, and who knows what he would say if he had a chance to defend himself. 

Personally, I think he was a Nazi of some sort for probably his entire life.  But he clearly wasn't trying to push that belief under his real name, or anything he published under his real name.  Seems like a green listed product set to me- maybe he spent his life pushing hateful beliefs under a fake name, but that's not what his published product says, and he literally took the secret to the grave, to be unearthed by someone going through his estate, right?

Maybe I have a detail wrong here, but that's what I recall from when this all broke a bit ago.

Quote from: Venka on February 03, 2024, 02:57:48 PM
But he clearly wasn't trying to push that belief under his real name, or anything he published under his real name.

He was an editorial advisor of the Journal of Historical Review (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Historical_Review) for twelve years under his legal name. He retired from teaching in the 1990s, before his involvement with the Journal. It's doubtful he would have had a mainstream academic career with such an association earlier.

As for his real name, I lived my pretty much my whole life without knowing what "M.A.R." stood for. After this stuff came out, I did more reading on him, and when I learned what M.A.R. stands for, my jaw dropped, for reasons I stated toward the beginning of this discussion.

I don't know what his game was, I don't. But he was definitely involved in neo-Nazi activities, fairly openly, under his real name. Some of his actions may have been subtle, others less so. His neo-Nazi preoccupations were obscure, not secret.
He probably published his novel under a pseudonym because, first, he might have wanted to remain somewhat obscure, and second, because it sounds like exactly the sort of drek that gets published by specialty presses with an ideological bent.

I came to Tekumel shortly before all this broke with a great deal of admiration and curiosity for his work. It's hard to accept, but sometimes smart people with geeky obsessions with language and culture and science-fiction turn out to be neo-Nazi shitbirds, through and through. The first time I read through Tekumel, I thought, "This discussion of the inimicals seems like it brings up some really morally ambiguous matters about replacing indigenous peoples, I guess this fits in with the somewhat fatalistic idea that empires go through cycles of rise and fall, in which all of us are destined to be first conqueror and eventually victim, which I treat with skepticism but is congruent with the idea of romantic savagery and 'civilization.'" And then I read it a second time, after everything, and I thought, "Oh, shit, this guy is saying, 'Well, it's so sad we have to exterminate native peoples to make way for civilization, but what can you do? Peace is fundamentally impossible between two peoples who are alien to each other.'" That's just my specific take. But knowing does change the reading. Words themselves never tell the whole story; words are made by people. Everything that is written is written with intent.

So, yeah, you can sometimes view a work separately from the author in many respects. But you can't wholly ignore their word, their context. In this particular case, I think it's very, very difficult to argue that Tekumel doesn't reflect Barker's views as a neo-Nazi, pro-Aryan proponent of antiquated, classic views of "Western civilization."

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 02:49:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 12:36:22 PM
Why do you ALWAYS have to equivocate and make false equivalences?

If you buy Tekumel, does any of that money go to support neo-nazis? Answer: NO.

If you buy anything from SJG, does any of that money go to support murdering babies? Answer: YES.

So, to anyone not trying to make a "who cares, muh both sides" false equivalence there's an obvious difference here.

Do you seriously think if buying Tekumel funded neo-nazis I would be arguing for it?

Well. The Tekumel Foundation new the truth for years and sat on it. I do have some reservations about supporting their endeavors. Tekumel isn't a big money maker, but there's some clout there, for some people, in some circles. And someone thought clout was more important than an honest disclosure. So. Do with that what you will.

Are you claiming the Tekumel foundation is a Neo-Nazi org? If that's your claim I want evidence (because we've established you're a leftist).

If that's not your claim then... So Fucking What?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 03:40:24 PM
Are you claiming the Tekumel foundation is a Neo-Nazi org? If that's your claim I want evidence (because we've established you're a leftist).

If that's not your claim then... So Fucking What?

So fucking what, then. If you don't care, you don't care, and I can't care for you.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:31:51 PM
So, yeah, you can sometimes view a work separately from the author in many respects. But you can't wholly ignore their word, their context. In this particular case, I think it's very, very difficult to argue that Tekumel doesn't reflect Barker's views as a neo-Nazi, pro-Aryan proponent of antiquated, classic views of "Western civilization."

And there it is...I thought it might take a couple years, looks like it just took one page of replies.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 04:03:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 03:40:24 PM
Are you claiming the Tekumel foundation is a Neo-Nazi org? If that's your claim I want evidence (because we've established you're a leftist).

If that's not your claim then... So Fucking What?

So fucking what, then. If you don't care, you don't care, and I can't care for you.

No, I don't fucking care that an organization that's not pushing shit contrary to my values (meaning in this case isn't Neo-Nazi) might benefit from my money.

Likewise dude I don't care about your deranged ass either.

Quote from: Brad on February 03, 2024, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:31:51 PM
So, yeah, you can sometimes view a work separately from the author in many respects. But you can't wholly ignore their word, their context. In this particular case, I think it's very, very difficult to argue that Tekumel doesn't reflect Barker's views as a neo-Nazi, pro-Aryan proponent of antiquated, classic views of "Western civilization."

And there it is...I thought it might take a couple years, looks like it just took one page of replies.

"Western Cicilization" as if it doesn't exist... Classic leftard twatwaffle.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 04:15:05 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 03, 2024, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:31:51 PM
So, yeah, you can sometimes view a work separately from the author in many respects. But you can't wholly ignore their word, their context. In this particular case, I think it's very, very difficult to argue that Tekumel doesn't reflect Barker's views as a neo-Nazi, pro-Aryan proponent of antiquated, classic views of "Western civilization."

And there it is...I thought it might take a couple years, looks like it just took one page of replies.

"Western Cicilization" as if it doesn't exist... Classic leftard twatwaffle.

I'm pretty sure there is no western civilization in Tekumel for the record; it nuked itself out of existence during WWIII many, many thousands of years ago. People don't even know what it is.

Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2024, 07:04:22 AM
RE: Nazi crap, I saw that mentioned on this messageboard a while back and literally DGAF. Barker was so involved and invested in Hindu culture I wouldn't doubt he had a couple old school swastikas and some retard took it the wrong way. Dredging up this sort of garbage is a waste of everyone's time.

Playing Devils not-advocate after playing devils advocate here.

Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

Quote from: S'mon on February 02, 2024, 08:18:26 AM
I run FR without Time of Troubles, and usually without Harpers either. And generally distant non meddling gods. Seems to work.

Barker wrote for an actual neo-Nazi journal. This isn't a misunderstanding. OTOH no one ever saw anything Nazi in Tekumel before they were aware of this.

He did not, far as I know, write for a journal.

He submitted a sci-fi book to a supremacist publisher. And he knew what they were. We just dont know the why of it and the book itself is weirdly not what you'd expect.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 02, 2024, 02:15:05 PM
Given some the posts above, I feel it's important to point out that Serpent's Walk, by MAR Barker, is a novel about heroic SS soldiers.

Quote from: The back cover
"Serpent's Walk ... assumes that Hitler's warrior elite - the SS - didn't give up their struggle for a White world when they lost the Second World War. Instead their survivors went underground and adopted some of the tactics of their enemies: they began building their economic muscle and buying into the opinion-forming media. A century after the war they are ready to challenge the democrats and Jews for the hearts and minds of White Americans, who have begun to have their fill of government-enforced multi-culturalism and "equality."

So actual Nazi stuff. Barker was literally a neo-Nazi.

Except thats not what the book really depicts. It is indeed a bunch of Nazis. But they essentially become a mercenary group and work for about anyone. They slowly do build up an economic and political platform. But from there it skews further and further from any Nazi thinking and the main characters are mostly weirdly accepting for supremacists.

I dissected the thing when this mess all started.

We do not know the why of him deliberately submitting the book or why he was on that academic board. He's dead. All I know is that he knew who the publisher was. Was his submission sincere? Was he fucking with them? We'll never know.

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:05:15 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 02, 2024, 08:18:26 AM
I run FR without Time of Troubles, and usually without Harpers either. And generally distant non meddling gods. Seems to work.

Barker wrote for an actual neo-Nazi journal. This isn't a misunderstanding. OTOH no one ever saw anything Nazi in Tekumel before they were aware of this.

He did not, far as I know, write for a journal.

He submitted a sci-fi book to a supremacist publisher. And he knew what they were. We just dont know the why of it and the book itself is weirdly not what you'd expect.

He is listed as being part of the Editorial Advisory Committee for The Journal of Historical Review, which is explicitly about Holocaust denial. You can see the archive of their credit listing him (as "Phillip Barker PhD of Minneapolis, Minnesota") here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

I do not see him listed as an author offhand among the journal articles, but I also don't see the complete archives.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 03, 2024, 06:45:53 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 04:15:05 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 03, 2024, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:31:51 PM
So, yeah, you can sometimes view a work separately from the author in many respects. But you can't wholly ignore their word, their context. In this particular case, I think it's very, very difficult to argue that Tekumel doesn't reflect Barker's views as a neo-Nazi, pro-Aryan proponent of antiquated, classic views of "Western civilization."

And there it is...I thought it might take a couple years, looks like it just took one page of replies.

"Western Cicilization" as if it doesn't exist... Classic leftard twatwaffle.

I'm pretty sure there is no western civilization in Tekumel for the record; it nuked itself out of existence during WWIII many, many thousands of years ago. People don't even know what it is.

pawsplay wasn't talking about tekumel there, but I'm sure you already knew that.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 03, 2024, 06:45:53 PM
I'm pretty sure there is no western civilization in Tekumel for the record; it nuked itself out of existence during WWIII many, many thousands of years ago. People don't even know what it is.

I was talking about Barker's neo-Nazi views. There are different conceptions of civilization, and different views of European history. Part of the Nazi program involved appropriating historical, political, and philosophical sources, and using them to bolster the intellectual legitimacy of Nazism. In this case I am thinking of works like Spengler's Decline of the West (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West), as an example of a pre-existing system that was recruited to support the Nazi claims to be the future of civilization. Spengler himself was resistant to the idea of strong racial essentialism, and was sidelined by the Nazis later in his career. Spengler is exactly the sort of person who would appeal to a neo-Nazi anti-Semite who writes fantasy novels about heroic SS soldiers and softball their noxious racial attitudes to make them seem more like intellectual and political realists.

If you look at it as a founding myth for something like Tekumel, we see the thousands-years star empire decline and all. On Tekumel, we see "young" new civilizations that have not yet reached their zenith and still like in a kind of ritualistic, sophisticated barbarism. While Tekumel borrows a lot of Meso-American motifs like the "flower war," limited metallurgy, and beastly hot weather, it also borrows heavily from Barker's other interests. He studied languages in India, and India of course is a fascination of the Nazis; the term Aryan refers to some affinities of ancient Indian culture. Later European writers conflated it with Indo-Persian cultural and racial identity. The term swastika itself comes from Sanskrit, and the symbol and its variations still appear in India; it comes to Nazism through an embrace of the Indo-European historical perspective, Orientalism, and European metaphysics and its fascination with Eastern religion. The swastika was adopted by fraternal European societies as having a secret and sacred sense; the Nazis in turn adopted it as representing fraternal societies. So Barker's fascination with India is both present in his Tekumel work, and germane to his pseudo-academic interest in Nazism.

Barker's depiction of the Tsolyani as a less advanced people, who harvest and use ancient technology without understanding it is consonant with certain classicist views of history. I'm not say classicism in general embraces such views, or that they are common in the 21st century; that is why I specifically mentioned outdated views of classicism in relation to his worldview, as reflected in his fictional Tekumel work and his involvement with the slightly less fictional Journal of Historical Review.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 10:21:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:05:15 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 02, 2024, 08:18:26 AM
I run FR without Time of Troubles, and usually without Harpers either. And generally distant non meddling gods. Seems to work.

Barker wrote for an actual neo-Nazi journal. This isn't a misunderstanding. OTOH no one ever saw anything Nazi in Tekumel before they were aware of this.

He did not, far as I know, write for a journal.

He submitted a sci-fi book to a supremacist publisher. And he knew what they were. We just dont know the why of it and the book itself is weirdly not what you'd expect.

He is listed as being part of the Editorial Advisory Committee for The Journal of Historical Review, which is explicitly about Holocaust denial. You can see the archive of their credit listing him (as "Phillip Barker PhD of Minneapolis, Minnesota") here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

I do not see him listed as an author offhand among the journal articles, but I also don't see the complete archives.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 04:56:21 AM

Quote from: WERDNA on February 03, 2024, 06:45:53 PM
I'm pretty sure there is no western civilization in Tekumel for the record; it nuked itself out of existence during WWIII many, many thousands of years ago. People don't even know what it is.

I was talking about Barker's neo-Nazi views. There are different conceptions of civilization, and different views of European history. Part of the Nazi program involved appropriating historical, political, and philosophical sources, and using them to bolster the intellectual legitimacy of Nazism. In this case I am thinking of works like Spengler's Decline of the West (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West), as an example of a pre-existing system that was recruited to support the Nazi claims to be the future of civilization. Spengler himself was resistant to the idea of strong racial essentialism, and was sidelined by the Nazis later in his career. Spengler is exactly the sort of person who would appeal to a neo-Nazi anti-Semite who writes fantasy novels about heroic SS soldiers and softball their noxious racial attitudes to make them seem more like intellectual and political realists.

If you look at it as a founding myth for something like Tekumel, we see the thousands-years star empire decline and all. On Tekumel, we see "young" new civilizations that have not yet reached their zenith and still like in a kind of ritualistic, sophisticated barbarism. While Tekumel borrows a lot of Meso-American motifs like the "flower war," limited metallurgy, and beastly hot weather, it also borrows heavily from Barker's other interests. He studied languages in India, and India of course is a fascination of the Nazis; the term Aryan refers to some affinities of ancient Indian culture. Later European writers conflated it with Indo-Persian cultural and racial identity. The term swastika itself comes from Sanskrit, and the symbol and its variations still appear in India; it comes to Nazism through an embrace of the Indo-European historical perspective, Orientalism, and European metaphysics and its fascination with Eastern religion. The swastika was adopted by fraternal European societies as having a secret and sacred sense; the Nazis in turn adopted it as representing fraternal societies. So Barker's fascination with India is both present in his Tekumel work, and germane to his pseudo-academic interest in Nazism.

Barker's depiction of the Tsolyani as a less advanced people, who harvest and use ancient technology without understanding it is consonant with certain classicist views of history. I'm not say classicism in general embraces such views, or that they are common in the 21st century; that is why I specifically mentioned outdated views of classicism in relation to his worldview, as reflected in his fictional Tekumel work and his involvement with the slightly less fictional Journal of Historical Review.

So, folks, if you ever want to demonstrate to anyone the flaws in modern thinking, just use the post above.  It's the inversion of the scientific method encapsulated.  Normally, in investigating some premise, you would look at what the preponderance of the evidence is.  You'd look at a game system and see what themes and ideas dominate its construction and play.  It's very clear that, until he was outed, no one thought Tekumel was "nazi" in structure, presentation, or composition.  I'd be open to any evidence that someone spotted the "nazi" subtext before the great reveal, but I haven't seen anyone provide any.

Now we come to "modern" thought, as epitomized by the post above.  It starts from the conclusion ("Tekumel must be hiding nazi ideologies, because it was made by a neo-nazi") and then cherry-picks bits and pieces of "evidence" in order to establish the conclusion, without regard to counter-evidence or even the preponderance.  Look at what was claimed!  It boils down to three points:

• The Nazi's used the concept of historical decline of empire and the rise of new civilizations from the ashes as a justification for their rise to power.  Well, so have many other civilizations used that motif, including many non-Western ones.  And just about every fantasy RPG, simply because it offers a fertile ground for adventuring (remnants of the old to explore, little law to hinder you, etc.)  So not evidenc of nazi, unless you are set to see it.
• He uses Indian motifs.  The Nazis liked India and some of their motifs. This is as close to a straight-faced "Hitler drank water, so water is bad" argument as I've ever seen.  So any invocation of Indian motifs makes you a nazi?
• Some societies are more technologically advanced than others.  And Nazi historians pointed that out. No shit, Sherlock, because throughout history some societies have been technologically backwards living on the advances of their forbearers.  Every historian has pointed this out.  So another "Hitler drank water..." argument.

Now, it should come as no surprise that the same person arguing this way is one of our resident progressives.  Because this is how they think.  Conclusion first, then evidence afterwards.  Because, at the root of all progressive thought is narcissism.  It centers on the person, not the thing.  When I invoke Indian motifs, it's not neo-nazi, because I'm a good person.  When you invoke the same motifs, it's evidence of your neo-nazism, because you are a bad person.  I drink water because I am thirsty.  You drink it because of its association with Hitler!  Without knowing that MAR Barker was a neo-nazi, you could never have proven your point.  Once you have him categorized, suddenly you can see it all...

Archive this post!  It's the most blatant and instructive example of progressive "thinking" that has ever been posted here.  And it shows why it is useless to argue with them.  They don't even think in a logical manner.  Their conclusions come before their evidence.  It's also why the invasion of the liberal arts into the sciences has wrought so much damage in the sciences, but that's a discussion for elsewhere...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 04, 2024, 11:11:51 AM
I'd be open to any evidence that someone spotted the "nazi" subtext before the great reveal, but I haven't seen anyone provide any.

As I mentioned before, the treatment of the "inimicals" was always eyebrow-raising, but didn't have a lot of context to ascertain what the author was after.

Here's a review excerpt (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/18/18663.phtml) from someone who considered themselves a Tekumel fan:

Quote from: Endzeitgeist
Picture a super high-tech civilization spanning the stars, a true interstellar empire. They found this world, and it's poisonous and strange - red jungles, poisonous plants, hostile local civilizations. Undaunted, they start terraforming the place and wage war; humanity not only radically annihilates essentially the planet's previous flora and fauna and introduces their own, they also best the local civilizations and force them to retreat, beaten and battered. It is essentially an extreme form of colonialism that subjects the very nature of the planet to the whims of the colonizers.

I won't bother with further Internet archaeology but suffice it to say these themes have never been invisible. They just haven't been clearly situated with respect to the author's beliefs.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 04:44:25 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 04, 2024, 11:11:51 AM
I'd be open to any evidence that someone spotted the "nazi" subtext before the great reveal, but I haven't seen anyone provide any.

As I mentioned before, the treatment of the "inimicals" was always eyebrow-raising, but didn't have a lot of context to ascertain what the author was after.

Here's a review excerpt (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/18/18663.phtml) from someone who considered themselves a Tekumel fan:

Quote from: Endzeitgeist
Picture a super high-tech civilization spanning the stars, a true interstellar empire. They found this world, and it's poisonous and strange - red jungles, poisonous plants, hostile local civilizations. Undaunted, they start terraforming the place and wage war; humanity not only radically annihilates essentially the planet's previous flora and fauna and introduces their own, they also best the local civilizations and force them to retreat, beaten and battered. It is essentially an extreme form of colonialism that subjects the very nature of the planet to the whims of the colonizers.

I won't bother with further Internet archaeology but suffice it to say these themes have never been invisible. They just haven't been clearly situated with respect to the author's beliefs.

Those themes describe every contact between cultures before the twentieth century, from the Romans to the Mayans to the Spanish.  The idea that the quote above establishes a unique "nazi" worldview is laughable, and only visible to you because of your delusions and ignorance.

But thanks for the reply.  Now I have both an example of modern thought and an example of historical ignorance to use.  How about Dunning-Kruger next?  I know you have it in you...

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Playing Devils not-advocate after playing devils advocate here.

Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

This is all rhetorical, of course, because any sane person knows the right answer and any fucking lunatic will say whatever suits their agenda. If Barker was a real Nazi, he certainly sucked at it and didn't want anyone to know from what information has been revealed in this thread.

Just to point out the obvious that seems to be ignored - he was a Muslim and this sort of belief is not exactly uncommon among them.

Yeah, not all of them believe that, not even a majority, but it's still pretty common. The BBC just had a scandal about an employee like that.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 04, 2024, 05:38:48 PM
Those themes describe every contact between cultures before the twentieth century, from the Romans to the Mayans to the Spanish. 

That's definitely not true. The Romans famously preferred to let conquered people retain their own religion and often much of their own government, provided they paid taxes and furnished a few military auxiliaries. When the Spanish conquered Mexico, one of the first things they did was get the leadership to convert to Christianity, making the Emperor into a Spanish viceroy, and turning the vast majority of the Aztec nobility into Spanish lords. The natives of North America and Meso-America were not regarded as inhuman beings with whom harmony was impossible; the Roman church countenanced conquest, indenture, and slavery, as steps they were willing to tolerate in the Christianization and eventual assimilation of the native people. I have no idea how you acquired such a misunderstanding of those specific examples you chose.

The idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual, and are congruent with political and pseudo-intellectual patters somewhat popular from the 18th to early 20th centuries, finally grounding mostly to a halt with the defeat of the Germans and Japanese during WWII. Barker's views, as expressed in the game Tekumel, are more congruent with concepts like American "Manifest Destiny" and Nazi Lebensraum, not mainstream historical views, even during the height of colonialism, the global slave trade, and European adventurism.

"We can never live together, we must destroy their world to make room for ours," is a concept that fits in with Nazism. It does not fit in with the war culture of the Mayans, who placed a high value in the taking of captives as a measure of political and military might. The Mayans were a loosely connected group of political concentrations, who also dominated other similar, linguistically and religiously related nearby peoples. The idea of grafting a pseudo-Mayan civilization onto the narrative of an Old West pacification of the western territories, or the German cleansing of Europe to make way for German-speaking dominion, as Barker does in Tekumel, suggest a very peculiar attitude toward history.

One of the most prominent foes in Tekumel are the Ssú, the so-called Enemies of Man, and right now, I can't even tell you if their name is not some dumb joke about the Sioux.

Barker's Tekumel is not grounded in some neutral appreciation for history and empire, but in a specific ideological field that incorporates the idea of ascendant and decadent civilizations, the extermination of indigenous people to gain land for the settlers' race, and the concept of "great peoples" or empires as organism-like entities with their own particular attributes. These are distinctly views associated with colonialism, white supremacy, and the Nazis (among other ethnic chauvinists), not associated with mainstream views based in humanism, modern science, sociology, and other serious fields of academic study.

Tekumel is a game nestled in the mythological and historical tangle of the American West, the Congo, and 20th century Popland. Those themes were easier to ignore or to treat in a disinterested way. In part, this is because the fantasy and adventure fiction of the 20th century was also steeped in many of these same ideas, consciously and unconsciously. "Let's clear this area of monsters and build a fort and a town," isn't a theme unique to Tekumel, but many early D&D campaigns, and this is an expression of the motifs, though not necessarily the philosophy, of colonialism and settlerism. But with the revelations regarding Barker's completely proven relationship with active neo-Nazi organizations, those ideas can no longer be considered to un-examined biases or lionization, neutral depiction, or detached critique. No, these are clearly conscious notions that Barker was aware of and nurtured within his personal worldview. This is someone who believed we needed to renew Western civilization by punishing the Jews, who was a zealous Holocaust denier and so forth, and so forth. Given Barker's view of real world human difference, his Tekumel is a deliberate expression of the most deadly and racist notions of the 19th and 20th century.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PMThe idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual....

What about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration? It seems like a contradiction to suggest Barker was using non-European cultures as inspiration for a world meant to convey what's being called a uniquely European attitude towards cultural conflict.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 04, 2024, 05:38:48 PM
Those themes describe every contact between cultures before the twentieth century, from the Romans to the Mayans to the Spanish. 

That's definitely not true. The Romans famously preferred to let conquered people retain their own religion and often much of their own government, provided they paid taxes and furnished a few military auxiliaries. When the Spanish conquered Mexico, one of the first things they did was get the leadership to convert to Christianity, making the Emperor into a Spanish viceroy, and turning the vast majority of the Aztec nobility into Spanish lords. The natives of North America and Meso-America were not regarded as inhuman beings with whom harmony was impossible; the Roman church countenanced conquest, indenture, and slavery, as steps they were willing to tolerate in the Christianization and eventual assimilation of the native people. I have no idea how you acquired such a misunderstanding of those specific examples you chose.

The idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual, and are congruent with political and pseudo-intellectual patters somewhat popular from the 18th to early 20th centuries, finally grounding mostly to a halt with the defeat of the Germans and Japanese during WWII. Barker's views, as expressed in the game Tekumel, are more congruent with concepts like American "Manifest Destiny" and Nazi Lebensraum, not mainstream historical views, even during the height of colonialism, the global slave trade, and European adventurism.

"We can never live together, we must destroy their world to make room for ours," is a concept that fits in with Nazism. It does not fit in with the war culture of the Mayans, who placed a high value in the taking of captives as a measure of political and military might. The Mayans were a loosely connected group of political concentrations, who also dominated other similar, linguistically and religiously related nearby peoples. The idea of grafting a pseudo-Mayan civilization onto the narrative of an Old West pacification of the western territories, or the German cleansing of Europe to make way for German-speaking dominion, as Barker does in Tekumel, suggest a very peculiar attitude toward history.

One of the most prominent foes in Tekumel are the Ssú, the so-called Enemies of Man, and right now, I can't even tell you if their name is not some dumb joke about the Sioux.

Barker's Tekumel is not grounded in some neutral appreciation for history and empire, but in a specific ideological field that incorporates the idea of ascendant and decadent civilizations, the extermination of indigenous people to gain land for the settlers' race, and the concept of "great peoples" or empires as organism-like entities with their own particular attributes. These are distinctly views associated with colonialism, white supremacy, and the Nazis (among other ethnic chauvinists), not associated with mainstream views based in humanism, modern science, sociology, and other serious fields of academic study.

Tekumel is a game nestled in the mythological and historical tangle of the American West, the Congo, and 20th century Popland. Those themes were easier to ignore or to treat in a disinterested way. In part, this is because the fantasy and adventure fiction of the 20th century was also steeped in many of these same ideas, consciously and unconsciously. "Let's clear this area of monsters and build a fort and a town," isn't a theme unique to Tekumel, but many early D&D campaigns, and this is an expression of the motifs, though not necessarily the philosophy, of colonialism and settlerism. But with the revelations regarding Barker's completely proven relationship with active neo-Nazi organizations, those ideas can no longer be considered to un-examined biases or lionization, neutral depiction, or detached critique. No, these are clearly conscious notions that Barker was aware of and nurtured within his personal worldview. This is someone who believed we needed to renew Western civilization by punishing the Jews, who was a zealous Holocaust denier and so forth, and so forth. Given Barker's view of real world human difference, his Tekumel is a deliberate expression of the most deadly and racist notions of the 19th and 20th century.

We all know the North American Tribes were holding hands and singing cumbaya.
Same for the Aztecs here in México.
Genghis Kan was famous for his kindness towards the conquered peoples
Africa was a peaceful utopia without war, slavery etc until the arrival of the white devil.
Muslims conquered Europe by sending them love letters...

What is it with the woke and their total history illiteracy?

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PM"We can never live together, we must destroy their world to make room for ours," is a concept that fits in with Nazism.

Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Native American warfare, pre-colonial African warfare... as a matter of fact, societies at "chiefdom" level of development are the MOST genocidal societies, historically. Nazi genocides may have been massive in absolute terms, but proportionally, chiefdoms were far more lethal.

Compared to chiefdom warfare, conquest and enslavement by proper states was an improvement.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 01:20:01 AM
What is it with the woke and their total history illiteracy?

It doesn't fit their internalized narrative of "white man bad". It's actually hilariously racist to think about how all those poor brown people have always been oppressed and were never able to accomplish anything.

Speaking Aztecs, the only reason they got conquered by the Spanish is because of better tech. Anyone who doesn't think the Aztecs wouldn't have gotten on ships and taken over the Iberian peninsula if they had the means is a special kind of stupid.

Quote from: Brad on February 05, 2024, 10:13:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 01:20:01 AM
What is it with the woke and their total history illiteracy?

It doesn't fit their internalized narrative of "white man bad". It's actually hilariously racist to think about how all those poor brown people have always been oppressed and were never able to accomplish anything.

Speaking Aztecs, the only reason they got conquered by the Spanish is because of better tech. Anyone who doesn't think the Aztecs wouldn't have gotten on ships and taken over the Iberian peninsula if they had the means is a special kind of stupid.

Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM
Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

How dare you imply indigenous brown people were bad.

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

Brad, were you on the board of a journal dedicated to Holocaust denial? That's the far more crucial evidence of Barker being a Nazi sympathizer.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhqWbLSESesa_a4vos0e4FGkmQg8HVKGZRtuoZnj8URhglkEE1D5ngXPEyuXCvG0sCkwnE4rP1wDe8ZwCQNQotIvAqldmvp20-XIlXZYzVJLO3TxVmD8G6VH-9BejNVn3CkebIwl1tiKogsPxMybpuKVncUx4CyH9ttUrafBWm5LwqaftDmnyR8Kk1E=w448-h352)

(https://d3525k1ryd2155.cloudfront.net/h/973/374/410374973.0.x.jpg)

You can browse more info about the Journal of Historical Review in archive here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

These are the self-professed goals of Castle Hill Publishers who published the Journal of Historical Review (from their "About" page):

QuoteIt is the goal of Castle Hill Publishers to scientifically investigate historical events, particularly those of the 20th century, without limitations imposed by dogmas or axioms.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to defend human rights and to combat discrimination, especially when it is directed against the German people. This shall be done within the widest possible framework and particularly by means of proper historical research into the events of the 20th century in Europe.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to correct unjust reporting or accounts of events of the 20th century. It is also the Foundation's goal to further public debate about the subject generally described as 'Holocaust'.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to financially assist Revisionists who, due to their work, are subjected to prosecution, physical assault or slander, or who are otherwise victimized or persecuted.

It is also the Foundation's goal to oppose, with all available legal means, those persons, institutions and organizations who denounce, charge, convict or otherwise inflict harm on Revisionists for not believing in the existence of gas chambers.

Welp, here comes the erasure from history. Marxists have been propping up Nazis as the most terrible people in existence for 70 years to cover up their own demonstrably worse atrocities. And retards, many of them "highly educated" eat it up.

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 12:09:28 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

Brad, were you on the board of a journal dedicated to Holocaust denial? That's the far more crucial evidence of Barker being a Nazi sympathizer.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhqWbLSESesa_a4vos0e4FGkmQg8HVKGZRtuoZnj8URhglkEE1D5ngXPEyuXCvG0sCkwnE4rP1wDe8ZwCQNQotIvAqldmvp20-XIlXZYzVJLO3TxVmD8G6VH-9BejNVn3CkebIwl1tiKogsPxMybpuKVncUx4CyH9ttUrafBWm5LwqaftDmnyR8Kk1E=w448-h352)

(https://d3525k1ryd2155.cloudfront.net/h/973/374/410374973.0.x.jpg)

You can browse more info about the Journal of Historical Review in archive here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

These are the self-professed goals of Castle Hill Publishers who published the Journal of Historical Review (from their "About" page):

QuoteIt is the goal of Castle Hill Publishers to scientifically investigate historical events, particularly those of the 20th century, without limitations imposed by dogmas or axioms.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to defend human rights and to combat discrimination, especially when it is directed against the German people. This shall be done within the widest possible framework and particularly by means of proper historical research into the events of the 20th century in Europe.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to correct unjust reporting or accounts of events of the 20th century. It is also the Foundation's goal to further public debate about the subject generally described as 'Holocaust'.

It is also Castle Hill Publishers' goal to financially assist Revisionists who, due to their work, are subjected to prosecution, physical assault or slander, or who are otherwise victimized or persecuted.

It is also the Foundation's goal to oppose, with all available legal means, those persons, institutions and organizations who denounce, charge, convict or otherwise inflict harm on Revisionists for not believing in the existence of gas chambers.

And that impacts the quality of Tekumel exactly how?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 04, 2024, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PMThe idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual....

What about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration? It seems like a contradiction to suggest Barker was using non-European cultures as inspiration for a world meant to convey what's being called a uniquely European attitude towards cultural conflict.

That's why it's a noteworthy observation. When Barker clearly makes a choice, not the obvious one from re-treading what other people have done and said with regard to history and mythology, it's fair to ask why he made that choice.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM
Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

That's basically true. The Aztec empire was built on conquest, and like the Roman Empire and many other empires, eventually began to suffer from internal problems. Many of the nominal citizens of the Aztec empires were very happy to replace Aztec rulers with other rulers, and Aztec religion with a different religion.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:19:44 PM
And that impacts the quality of Tekumel exactly how?

Man, you just seem really eager to suck some Neo-Nazi dick.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:28:49 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 04, 2024, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:08:56 PMThe idea that native people are obstacles to settlement and had to be bodily and entirely destroyed is a notion that gained more popularity during the era of European colonialism. Barker's views are historically unusual....

What about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration? It seems like a contradiction to suggest Barker was using non-European cultures as inspiration for a world meant to convey what's being called a uniquely European attitude towards cultural conflict.

That's why it's a noteworthy observation. When Barker clearly makes a choice, not the obvious one from re-treading what other people have done and said with regard to history and mythology, it's fair to ask why he made that choice.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM
Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

That's basically true. The Aztec empire was built on conquest, and like the Roman Empire and many other empires, eventually began to suffer from internal problems. Many of the nominal citizens of the Aztec empires were very happy to replace Aztec rulers with other rulers, and Aztec religion with a different religion.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:19:44 PM
And that impacts the quality of Tekumel exactly how?

Man, you just seem really eager to suck some Neo-Nazi dick.

LOL, yes, like murdering the subjects by the thousands to appease their gods and engaging in ritual cannibalism (TBF many other cultures did this last part too).

Yes, I'm "sucking Neo-Nazi dick" by not giving a fuck what the deceased author did elsewhere because his beliefs aren't present in Tekumel...

Go suck some "feminine" penis and leave us thinking people alone will you?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:45:54 PM
Go suck some "feminine" penis and leave us thinking people alone will you?

Look, it's a free country. If white knighting a neo-Nazi is how you want to spend your time and energy, it's not my place to tell you to live your life differently.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:50:36 PM
Look, it's a free country. If white knighting a neo-Nazi is how you want to spend your time and energy, it's not my place to tell you to live your life differently.

Why are you white knighting known rapists and child pornographers?

I feel like it should be pointed out that the humanspace empire in the ancient background of Tekumel's lore wasn't presented as particularly moral. In addition to brutally conquering the Ssu, I believe they fought wars against several species they were formerly allied with.

The Pe Choi species on the other hand are often treated positively, notably in the novels. They gave humanity FTL and were generally peaceable and sought understanding between groups. In the spacefaring society of the ancient past, I'd say they played a similar role to Vulcans in Trek.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:50:36 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 02:45:54 PM
Go suck some "feminine" penis and leave us thinking people alone will you?

Look, it's a free country. If white knighting a neo-Nazi is how you want to spend your time and energy, it's not my place to tell you to live your life differently.

Now you are LIYNG about me, I've never said anything in defense of Barker, he's a Neo-Nazi or an Islamist (if you really think those are different).

Is he profiting from people buying Tekumel?

Is the money going to push nazism/islamism?

No?

Well then go suck a "feminine" penis you disingenuous twat.

Geekybugle -- Omega and Brad both posted with doubt about whether Barker was a nazi sympathizer, based on his authoring of Serpent's Walk.

But his participation in the Journal of Historical Review removes that doubt. If you consider their posts off-topic, then take it up with them.

---

That doesn't affect the quality of Tekumel products, but quality isn't the thread topic. In Reply #5 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/where-would-tekumel-the-petal-throne-setting-belong-upon-the-list/msg1275898/#msg1275898), the original poster (Jam the MF) specifically asked about Barker's mindset.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 01:19:13 AM
Ok, I see that later on; the author of Tekumel wrote some very unsavory stuff.

Was his earlier work Tekumel, of a usable nature; or is it held in question too, because of his later writings?  Was he always the person he was later revealed to be; or is it possible that he fell into that later in his writing career?  Some people become converted, to certain mindsets.

To answer - Barker published Serpent's Walk and joined the Journal of Historical Review around 1990, which is after the creation of Tekumel -- but still in the middle of his publications about the setting. He continued to publish three move Tekumel novels after 1990, and oversaw the development of three RPGs set in Tekumel (_Gardásiyal_ in 1994, _Tekumel_ in 2005, and _Bethorm_, published in 2014 two years after his death).

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 04:48:01 PM
Geekybugle -- Omega and Brad both posted with doubt about whether Barker was a nazi sympathizer, based on his authoring of Serpent's Walk.

But his participation in the Journal of Historical Review removes that doubt. If you consider their posts off-topic, then take it up with them.

---

That doesn't affect the quality of Tekumel products, but quality isn't the thread topic. In Reply #5 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/where-would-tekumel-the-petal-throne-setting-belong-upon-the-list/msg1275898/#msg1275898), the original poster (Jam the MF) specifically asked about Barker's mindset.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 02, 2024, 01:19:13 AM
Ok, I see that later on; the author of Tekumel wrote some very unsavory stuff.

Was his earlier work Tekumel, of a usable nature; or is it held in question too, because of his later writings?  Was he always the person he was later revealed to be; or is it possible that he fell into that later in his writing career?  Some people become converted, to certain mindsets.

To answer - Barker published Serpent's Walk and joined the Journal of Historical Review around 1990, which is after the creation of Tekumel -- but still in the middle of his publications about the setting. He continued to publish three move Tekumel novels after 1990, and oversaw the development of three RPGs set in Tekumel (_Gardásiyal_ in 1994, _Tekumel_ in 2005, and _Bethorm_, published in 2014 two years after his death).

I'm taking it with pawsplay, you and everyone else that keeps trying to make the discussion about Barker and not Tekumel.

Are you also claiming that his beliefs are evident in the Tekumel stuff?

If so, provide evidence that ANYONE not privy to his beliefs would consider to be neo-nazi in nature.

If not, then try and keep the discussion about Tekumel. You leftists keep derailing threads, and the other members don't help by not ignoring you lot.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:28:49 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 04, 2024, 11:18:38 PMWhat about the Mesoamerican, Egyptian, Indian and Asian mythologies and cultures from which Barker took most of his inspiration?

That's why it's a noteworthy observation. When Barker clearly makes a choice, not the obvious one from re-treading what other people have done and said with regard to history and mythology, it's fair to ask why he made that choice.

The historical phenomena of invasion, subjugation, violent cultural domination and enforced diasporas are hardly unique to the West. Given that Barker's stated goal in creating Tekumel was, like Tolkien, simply to present a fantasy world surrounding his invented language -- and given that language was designed based on non-European tongues, it would need something other than the bog-standard mediaeval European template -- it seems more in keeping with Occam's razor to me simply to postulate that these things are present in Tekumel because they're present in the source material (i.e. real Eastern history).

Nobody is disputing that Barker was an anti-semite; that now appears beyond reasonable doubt. But to infer that since the Tekumel setting depicts cultures rising and falling by means of mass intercultural violence, it must therefore endorse such violence and must therefore be a work of Nazi advocacy because that's how the Nazis expanded and we know Barker agreed with them, simply seems too far a stretch to pass the plausibility test. Moreover, as has been noted, nobody started making that argument or saw any anti-Semitism in Tekumel at all until the truth of Barker's beliefs had in fact come out, which suggests that if Tekumel was intended to be propaganda, it failed to a ludicrous degree. Sometimes an Eye of Being an Unimpeachable Shield against Foes is just an Eye of Being an Unimpeachable Shield against Foes.

Greetings!

I'm not worried about anything that MAR Barker wrote in some strange, obscure book, or allegedly wrote. I've read the ultimate source of fucking Mein Kampf, written by Adolf Hitler, so I'm sure that MAR Barker has been a light-weight.

Screeching about MAR Barker's obscure book--that includes Nazis in it--but which seldom seem capable of discussing precisely whatever MAR Barker supposedly wrote, seems like yet more Woke fucking REEEing, and a witch hunt.

Tekumel seems like a very cool and interesting game world. If you can get a copy, get it for sure!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2024, 10:00:51 PM
Playing Devils not-advocate after playing devils advocate here.

Actually he apparently DID write and submit a sci-fi book to a neo Nazi publisher. Why? No one knows. But I read the book and its about as non-nazi as it can get while still having supposed nazis in it. I commented on it when this whole blowup happened. Barker is dead and we are never going to find out exactly what went down.

I don't like a lot of fiction, but one of my favorite books is Devil's Guard. The main character is a literal fucking Nazi. For people who don't know the book, the protagonist and some of his SS buddies join the French foreign legion to escape prosecution for war crimes at the tail end of WWII and they end up playing an instrumental part in the First Indochina War. The author passes it off as true, but there are a couple sequels that tend to make it clear it's mostly fiction, probably with some basis in actual truth. Regardless, does my liking this novel/war story/pseudo-biography/whatever make me a Nazi sympathizer simply because it's a cool book about war? Is the author a Nazi sympathizer because he wrote a book that paints some SS guys as being badass soldiers with some redeeming qualities?

This is all rhetorical, of course, because any sane person knows the right answer and any fucking lunatic will say whatever suits their agenda. If Barker was a real Nazi, he certainly sucked at it and didn't want anyone to know from what information has been revealed in this thread.

Greetings!

The book, Devil's Guard, sounds awesome, Brad! I remember seeing a film long ago--black & white, about something similar. An SS officer escaped the ruins of the Reich in 1945, became a mercenary, and also got away with a huge stash of *platinum bars*. He ended up in Indo-China, and was pursued by an American OSS agent. Similar, but the film and the book you mentioned also remind me that, as a historian, it is true that Nazis did become mercenaries after the fall of the Reich. More than a few SS men joined the French Foreign Legion, and fought in wars in Africa, South America, and in South-East Asia. Their training, leadership skills, and ruthless and expert fighting abilities as warriors made them in *very high* demand.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM

Quote from: Brad on February 05, 2024, 10:13:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 01:20:01 AM
What is it with the woke and their total history illiteracy?

It doesn't fit their internalized narrative of "white man bad". It's actually hilariously racist to think about how all those poor brown people have always been oppressed and were never able to accomplish anything.

Speaking Aztecs, the only reason they got conquered by the Spanish is because of better tech. Anyone who doesn't think the Aztecs wouldn't have gotten on ships and taken over the Iberian peninsula if they had the means is a special kind of stupid.

Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

Greetings!

Hey Geeky! Yeah, I've read where the Spanish talked about how badass and absolutely fierce the Aztecs were! Not just the warriors, in battle, but the fight was carried on *for years* with the civilian population, resisting the Sanish, led by surviving veteran warriors and Pagan Aztec priests.

And yes, Cortez soon very early on gained a critical ally--an Aztec woman, I forgot her name. Maybe she was a noble, or a peasant. Either way, she became his lover, confidante, and a key adviser. The Spanish sources discuss how she spoke several native languages, and soon learned Spanish. She was especially important as an interpreter, but even more so, is that she guided Cortez in all of the political and tribal politics and relationships. Soon, Cortez recruited some 50,000 native warriors, from other tribes, to fight against the Aztecs. So, his few thousand Spanish soldiers were not alone.

The Aztecs were powerful, and tough, and while the Spanish had some key advantages in technology--the Aztecs had many, many enemies that were eager to help a group of newcomers in bringing the Aztec Empire to defeat. The Spanish were surprisingly few in relative numbers--but, from my reading, they were all elite, very determined and professional, and absolutely inspired by their faith in God, and in the Spanish Empire.

I remember reading how Pozzaro, and like 500 soldiers, were in South America, the Incas as I recall, and outnumbered by thousands. Facing certain death, the Spanish didn't flinch a muscle. Instead, they drew their swords, and fired their guns, valiantly leaping into ferocious combat against their enemies! Awe-inspiring toughness, and courage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 05, 2024, 07:50:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM

Quote from: Brad on February 05, 2024, 10:13:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 01:20:01 AM
What is it with the woke and their total history illiteracy?

It doesn't fit their internalized narrative of "white man bad". It's actually hilariously racist to think about how all those poor brown people have always been oppressed and were never able to accomplish anything.

Speaking Aztecs, the only reason they got conquered by the Spanish is because of better tech. Anyone who doesn't think the Aztecs wouldn't have gotten on ships and taken over the Iberian peninsula if they had the means is a special kind of stupid.

Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

Greetings!

Hey Geeky! Yeah, I've read where the Spanish talked about how badass and absolutely fierce the Aztecs were! Not just the warriors, in battle, but the fight was carried on *for years* with the civilian population, resisting the Sanish, led by surviving veteran warriors and Pagan Aztec priests.

And yes, Cortez soon very early on gained a critical ally--an Aztec woman, I forgot her name. Maybe she was a noble, or a peasant. Either way, she became his lover, confidante, and a key adviser. The Spanish sources discuss how she spoke several native languages, and soon learned Spanish. She was especially important as an interpreter, but even more so, is that she guided Cortez in all of the political and tribal politics and relationships. Soon, Cortez recruited some 50,000 native warriors, from other tribes, to fight against the Aztecs. So, his few thousand Spanish soldiers were not alone.

The Aztecs were powerful, and tough, and while the Spanish had some key advantages in technology--the Aztecs had many, many enemies that were eager to help a group of newcomers in bringing the Aztec Empire to defeat. The Spanish were surprisingly few in relative numbers--but, from my reading, they were all elite, very determined and professional, and absolutely inspired by their faith in God, and in the Spanish Empire.

I remember reading how Pozzaro, and like 500 soldiers, were in South America, the Incas as I recall, and outnumbered by thousands. Facing certain death, the Spanish didn't flinch a muscle. Instead, they drew their swords, and fired their guns, valiantly leaping into ferocious combat against their enemies! Awe-inspiring toughness, and courage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

La Malinche, but she wasn't Aztec, she was Nahua, from what would become Veracruz, a Princess among her people, sold as a slave by the Aztecs, was Cortez's translator, latter converted to Catholicism, became his lover/concubine, Cortez built a palace for her and all her children were recognized as Cortez's.

Yep, the Spaniards were in awe by the Aztec's ferocity.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 05, 2024, 05:11:00 PM
Nobody is disputing that Barker was an anti-semite; that now appears beyond reasonable doubt.

Stephen - you might consider it beyond reasonable doubt, but Omega, Brad, and now SHARK have all disputed it. SHARK just called it a witch hunt against Barker.

Quote from: SHARK on February 05, 2024, 07:11:17 PM
Screeching about MAR Barker's obscure book--that includes Nazis in it--but which seldom seem capable of discussing precisely whatever MAR Barker supposedly wrote, seems like yet more Woke fucking REEEing, and a witch hunt.

SHARK - it's not just a book that includes Nazis in it. It is an explicitly pro-Nazi novel.

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/41qsYZ-7pBL.jpg)

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/51cGoqJ-oKL.aiimg-w1920h1400ar1cr0.jpg)

And again, it isn't just that he wrote this novel for a neonazi publisher. He was also on the editorial board for a Holocaust-denial journal.

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PMIf Barker was a real Nazi, he certainly sucked at it and didn't want anyone to know from what information has been revealed in this thread.

The best part about Marxists is their heroes are literally pedophiles, rapists, and murderers. And they brag about it with images on t-shirts.

While by the standards of the list, everything Barker wrote (except the Nazi book) should be green.
However, I think it's probably smarter to simply not even put it on the list, just because it'll be used to attack the list, and possibly even to get the list blacklisted from Google. Almost assured the next time some repeat criminal dies while being arrested anyway though.

The only other useful takeaway from this thread is that Brad here is pretty fucking based.

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 08:49:26 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 05, 2024, 05:11:00 PM
Nobody is disputing that Barker was an anti-semite; that now appears beyond reasonable doubt.

Stephen - you might consider it beyond reasonable doubt, but Omega, Brad, and now SHARK have all disputed it. SHARK just called it a witch hunt against Barker.

Quote from: SHARK on February 05, 2024, 07:11:17 PM
Screeching about MAR Barker's obscure book--that includes Nazis in it--but which seldom seem capable of discussing precisely whatever MAR Barker supposedly wrote, seems like yet more Woke fucking REEEing, and a witch hunt.

SHARK - it's not just a book that includes Nazis in it. It is an explicitly pro-Nazi novel.

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/41qsYZ-7pBL.jpg)

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/51cGoqJ-oKL.aiimg-w1920h1400ar1cr0.jpg)

And again, it isn't just that he wrote this novel for a neonazi publisher. He was also on the editorial board for a Holocaust-denial journal.

Greetings!

Cool, Jhkim. So, yeah, he wrote some weird novel. He also wrote an awesome game book.

He was an editor of some journal. Ok. Holocaust denial journal? Ok, so he had some really stupid ideas about politics and history.

What is the point though? David Irving--a scholar and historian--well known, wrote many books on World War II. He is especially famous for a stellar biography about Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. I own this book. A fine book of scholarsship and insight on the famous commander of the Afrika Korps.

Decades later--it comes to light that David Irving denies the Holocaust, and has written some scholarly papers or commentary revealing some historical perspectives that are unfortunate and disappointing, to say the least.

I suppose people change. Various prominent people do X very well, even brilliant--but are also alcoholics, cheat on their spouses, or are otherwise just fucktards as individual people.

What is the point though? It is what it is.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Venka on February 05, 2024, 10:06:28 PM
While by the standards of the list, everything Barker wrote (except the Nazi book) should be green.

Using the regular standards of the List, it should be rated by whoever currently publishes Tekumel, if anyone. If it's being published by Nazis or Communists who publicise their views then it should go on Red, whatever the setting content. It's the publishers who are rated. Wilderlands published by Bob Bledsaw II gets a different rating than Wilderlands published by Rob Conley.

Quote from: S'mon on February 06, 2024, 03:46:54 AM

Quote from: Venka on February 05, 2024, 10:06:28 PM
While by the standards of the list, everything Barker wrote (except the Nazi book) should be green.

Using the regular standards of the List, it should be rated by whoever currently publishes Tekumel, if anyone. If it's being published by Nazis or Communists who publicise their views then it should go on Red, whatever the setting content. It's the publishers who are rated. Wilderlands published by Bob Bledsaw II gets a different rating than Wilderlands published by Rob Conley.

I agree.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 10:21:56 PM
He is listed as being part of the Editorial Advisory Committee for The Journal of Historical Review, which is explicitly about Holocaust denial. You can see the archive of their credit listing him (as "Phillip Barker PhD of Minneapolis, Minnesota") here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210518162602/http://vho.org:80/GB/Journals/JHR/index.html

I do not see him listed as an author offhand among the journal articles, but I also don't see the complete archives.

Thats about all I came up with too. He was editor but apparently not author. I thought I'd found an article when was investigating. But can not find anything now and Im not digging back through it all over again. Its not a pleasant endeavor.  It is still fishy though. If he was not a neo-nazi then what the fuck was he doing? Watchdogging? Spying? Or was he just keeping his wretched activities covert? Though I've never met a neo-nazi who could not shut their damn mouths at some point.

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2024, 06:26:16 PM
This is all rhetorical, of course, because any sane person knows the right answer and any fucking lunatic will say whatever suits their agenda. If Barker was a real Nazi, he certainly sucked at it and didn't want anyone to know from what information has been revealed in this thread.

Exactly. I met him once at a little con running some Tekumel wargame back in the 80s and didnt know it. And he showed not a single indicator and theres nothing in the Tekumel books or novels either.

The underground Nazis in Serpent Walk whos ideals come across as pretty liberal "Leave us alone and we will leave you alone" sort of thing by the end.

This whole sordid tale is fucked up on multiple levels.

Quote from: Brad on February 05, 2024, 11:03:12 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 10:56:35 AM
Nope, the REAL reason the Aztecs got trounced is that they were such a monstrous empire EVERYBODY else hated them, convinced Cortez there was much gold to be had in Tenochtitlan and helped him with warriors and manpower (they helped him build Carabelas to sail the lake!).

How dare you imply indigenous brown people were bad.

Thats a bog thing in woke culture. Censoring the non-whites whenever they point out the truth. Jewish comedians cant make jokes about their own culture. It is VERBOTEN!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2024, 04:12:24 PM

he's a Neo-Nazi or an Islamist (if you really think those are different).

Thought he was a devout Islamist?

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 04:48:01 PM
Geekybugle -- Omega and Brad both posted with doubt about whether Barker was a nazi sympathizer, based on his authoring of Serpent's Walk.

But his participation in the Journal of Historical Review removes that doubt. If you consider their posts off-topic, then take it up with them.

No. I said. Multiple times now. That nothing is positive either way. He's editor on this journal. He wrote and submitted a book to a neo nazi publisher knowingly. But he does practically nothing overt about it. We do not know the why of any of it. Odds are he was. But we can never likely know for sure. He kept it hidden too well.

Contrast this with the creator of Sea Monkies who was openly supporting a neo-nazi group.

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 08:49:26 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 05, 2024, 05:11:00 PM
Nobody is disputing that Barker was an anti-semite; that now appears beyond reasonable doubt.

Stephen - you might consider it beyond reasonable doubt, but Omega, Brad, and now SHARK have all disputed it. SHARK just called it a witch hunt against Barker.

Quote from: SHARK on February 05, 2024, 07:11:17 PM
Screeching about MAR Barker's obscure book--that includes Nazis in it--but which seldom seem capable of discussing precisely whatever MAR Barker supposedly wrote, seems like yet more Woke fucking REEEing, and a witch hunt.

SHARK - it's not just a book that includes Nazis in it. It is an explicitly pro-Nazi novel.

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/41qsYZ-7pBL.jpg)

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/51cGoqJ-oKL.aiimg-w1920h1400ar1cr0.jpg)

And again, it isn't just that he wrote this novel for a neonazi publisher. He was also on the editorial board for a Holocaust-denial journal.

Nice try. But the back blub and the art were likely done by the neo-nazi publisher. Not Baker. The book itself is rather not as pro-nazi as I expected to be. That is the problem and what casts doubt on this whole thing. If hes a neo-nazi then why did he not write a real pro-nazi book?

It's pretty clear that working on the board of a Holocaust Denial Pseudo-academic journal for years makes him a Nazi. No one who isn't a Neo-Nazi would be associated with that. He kept it as secret as he could manage, which makes it clear he knew that if the public found out it would destroy his public life, and yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 06:08:43 AM
It's pretty clear that working on the board of a Holocaust Denial Pseudo-academic journal for years makes him a Nazi. No one who isn't a Neo-Nazi would be associated with that. He kept it as secret as he could manage, which makes it clear he knew that if the public found out it would destroy his public life, and yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

Pushing back here a bit...yes to second part. He knew he'd be ostracized for these views, so kept it a secret, sure. But Ahmadinejad is one of the most vocal and prominent Holocaust deniers in the world today and he's not a Nazi, at least so far as I can tell. So is it possible, like others have said, he was just a hardcore Muslim who held these beliefs and aligned himself with people of the same belief?

I guess in essence, is the only defining factor of Nazism Holocaust denial? There seems to be a lot more to it than that.

As I already said multiple times, immaterial anyway. Dude is dead and Tekumel doesn't have anything to do with Nazism, so as you already stated we should just see who is publishing it and use that as a metric for support (i.e. spending money).

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2024, 06:49:40 AM
Pushing back here a bit...yes to second part. He knew he'd be ostracized for these views, so kept it a secret, sure. But Ahmadinejad is one of the most vocal and prominent Holocaust deniers in the world today and he's not a Nazi, at least so far as I can tell. So is it possible, like others have said, he was just a hardcore Muslim who held these beliefs and aligned himself with people of the same belief?

I get the impression Barker wasn't even a hardcore Muslim as we'd think of it today, not an Islamist, more an Orientalist who thought Islam was cool.

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2024, 06:49:40 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 06:08:43 AM
It's pretty clear that working on the board of a Holocaust Denial Pseudo-academic journal for years makes him a Nazi. No one who isn't a Neo-Nazi would be associated with that. He kept it as secret as he could manage, which makes it clear he knew that if the public found out it would destroy his public life, and yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

Pushing back here a bit...yes to second part. He knew he'd be ostracized for these views, so kept it a secret, sure. But Ahmadinejad is one of the most vocal and prominent Holocaust deniers in the world today and he's not a Nazi, at least so far as I can tell. So is it possible, like others have said, he was just a hardcore Muslim who held these beliefs and aligned himself with people of the same belief?

I guess in essence, is the only defining factor of Nazism Holocaust denial? There seems to be a lot more to it than that.

As I already said multiple times, immaterial anyway. Dude is dead and Tekumel doesn't have anything to do with Nazism, so as you already stated we should just see who is publishing it and use that as a metric for support (i.e. spending money).

Ahmedinajad is a Muslim anti-semite, writing in Muslim circles. Your argument is that maybe M.A.R. Barker, being a Muslim convert, was an anti-semite more for religious rather than neo-nazi ideas. The main flaw I see with that as an historian is that as far as I know, no evidence has been uncovered of his supporting MUSLIM Anti-semitic organizations or contributing in any way to that kind of activity, but he clearly did involve himself, for many many years, in Neo-Nazi organizations.

I did already say that I agree that there's no reason why, now that money from it won't go to Barker, that Tekumel can't continue to be printed. I never saw anything political about it, which is why this revelation about Barkers abominable secret activities were such a shock when they came to light.

Quote from: Omega on February 06, 2024, 11:21:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 08:49:26 PM
SHARK - it's not just a book that includes Nazis in it. It is an explicitly pro-Nazi novel.

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/41qsYZ-7pBL.jpg)

(https://deltapress.com/uploads/files/products/p17738/51cGoqJ-oKL.aiimg-w1920h1400ar1cr0.jpg)

And again, it isn't just that he wrote this novel for a neonazi publisher. He was also on the editorial board for a Holocaust-denial journal.

Nice try. But the back blub and the art were likely done by the neo-nazi publisher. Not Baker. The book itself is rather not as pro-nazi as I expected to be. That is the problem and what casts doubt on this whole thing. If hes a neo-nazi then why did he not write a real pro-nazi book?

Barker chose to work with that neo-nazi publisher, so even if he didn't write the blurb himself, he chose the people to do the blurb for his book. I'm not sure what you expected from a pro-nazi book. Do you have any suggestion of what real pro-nazi novels are like? When I look at the reviews of it on Goodreads.com, I see these comments:

Quote(five stars) Great read.

Quote(four stars) It was actually a pretty entertaining read and contained a good deal of National-Socialist political theory which went along very nicely. I would recommend this book to anyone interested in race or politics. However, while the beginning and end of the book were fast paced, the long middle section was pretty boring.

Quote(three stars) Really not a bad book. Good fiction; would also be good from someone who is open and learning. It's a little on the weak side philosophically and very weak on the Jewish Problem (sort of makes them out to be just another bad group but not special really). But I will say it had a lot more explanations of political stances (from what I can remember) than some other fiction in it's uncommon/rare genre.

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/3684902

So there are people recommending it in a positive sense for those wanting to learn National-Socialist political theory.

Funnily enough, the more the leftists/libtards are whining about Tekumel/Barker, the more I want to play in Tekumel, due to spite if nothing else,
even if I cannot support the man´s personal views.

But to the topic at hand...

Tekumel as a setting itself, that is a tricky question. The Tsolyanu society is clearly rainbow friendly with legions with membership solely of gay men. There are basically a feminist "strong independent woman" type gender status called Aridani, where by a woman can go to a temple and claim a legal status as a male basically, with the male responsibilities connected to it and get a harem of beta males or females. The society allows all kinds of gender/sexual expression fluidity as a norm. Every kind of deviancy is supposedly practised "in some of the temples", and that mean every kind you can think of.

These are one of the reasons why the rainbow community has loved Tekumel so much and have stated their outrage about the Barker´s novel
and have wanted to "separate the art from the artist". Some even basically called for what sounded like stealing the intellectual property of Barker´s (owned by the Foundation, I believe) to "correct" what has been done. These are easy to find from YouTube.

I am not well versed enough about Tekumel to know whether some part of the rainbow stuff are in originally in the first game iteration, though at least the Aridani are, I cannot remember about the rest. I´v read the original Empire of the Petal Throne game book, parts of Sword & Glory and parts of Bethorm, but not Gardasial, Tirikelu etc. though.

To say that Tekumel as a setting has national socialist or antisemitic undertones is one of the most ridiculous things I´v ever heard to be honest, regardless of what kind of values/ideals Barker might have harbored personally.

What comes to UNIgames (current license holder), they are clearly in favor of leftist ideals and have applied to scrap Barker´s name from Bethorm, which was denied by The Tekumel Foundation. Though I can also understand the business side of it where they were scared of getting a "nazi stamp" due to the novel. Then again, Bethorm for example has a character creation chart to generate the gender and sexual preference/deviancy of the player character which itself is seems pretty questionable to me. If it wasn´t such a big deal to them, there would be no need to make such charts to begin with. Some of the UNIgames profits also go to jewish political organization as a "compensation" of Barker´s actions.

The Tekumel Foundation itself is in difficult situation where by they try to retain the legacy of Barker´s, which ever that may be and at the same time not to step on too many toes. I do not know about the ideals of the gentlemen involved, though at least they try look neutral, if that is possible at all in this case.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 05, 2024, 03:22:29 PM
I feel like it should be pointed out that the humanspace empire in the ancient background of Tekumel's lore wasn't presented as particularly moral. In addition to brutally conquering the Ssu, I believe they fought wars against several species they were formerly allied with.

Speaking of which, it looks like the old IX blog that put that Tekumel spin-off pulp sci-fi stuff out is gone.:(  I at least saved some of the posts off it I tended to refer to as PDF's though.

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 08, 2024, 03:38:57 AM
Tekumel as a setting itself, that is a tricky question. The Tsolyanu society is clearly rainbow friendly with legions with membership solely of gay men. There are basically a feminist "strong independent woman" type gender status called Aridani, where by a woman can go to a temple and claim a legal status as a male basically, with the male responsibilities connected to it and get a harem of beta males or females. The society allows all kinds of gender/sexual expression fluidity as a norm. Every kind of deviancy is supposedly practised "in some of the temples", and that mean every kind you can think of.

Essentially all of that was lifted from the cultures Barker was copying from. Many, if not most, native American groups have multiple acknowledged genders. Claiming a legal status as a "man" is something that was practiced in a number of Plains Indians groups, where they were otherwise treated more like valuable property. The Dine (Navajo) have four acknowledged genders, and didn't seem to get very perplexed about people coloring outside the lines; sometimes their conception of transgenderism, fluidity, and the like is called a fifth gender. The Spanish missionaries in the Americas were constantly perplexed, amazed, and occasionally enraged by the native peoples' accommodations with what we call homosexuality, transgender, gender non-comformity, etc. If you look globally, many societies with otherwise rigid gender roles come up with "escape hatches" and special roles for people who just won't or can't conform.

Tekumel also draws on Barker's pet interest, India, and in India, the hijra still exists in some form. These were intersex, eunuch, transgender, and other gender non-conforming people with a feminine presentation. They are culturally and legally recognized throughout the region as a third gender. Although their ability to do conventional work is often limited, they do have acknowledged social and ceremonial roles with a positive connotation.

I don't read too much into it ideologically. Barker viewed the Tsolyani patronizingly anyway. As a linguist with some minor interest in history and archaeology, Barker was aware that such variations in gender and sexuality are common throughout the world and throughout history. There are a lot of things he had choices about, that he chose because it made a better game. He decided it was hot and metal was rare, which made the civilization look more like the Mayans and so forth, and also justified putting topless women on every other page. The "woman who assumes the status of a man" concept was useful, because it allowed him both to have harems of subject women, and exotic fighting women who could then have hot hero sex with other women or with men. He had gay warrior fraternties, who knows? Because it amused him, because he was taking a dig at Ernst Rohm, because it was a noteworthy detail to his traveler mind, because it was an interesting parallel to the Theban Band, the Spartans, Athenian pederasty, etc. He was a mid 20th century man in love with late 19th century tourism and colonialism. Very little about his work feels surprising in light of that.  Like a Robert Howard who never grew out of it. That is what I though he WAS, just that, before all the Nazi stuff came out.

As to the question, "How do you feel about the people publishing his work now?" They continued to publish, and promote, the work of a neo-Nazi without letting people know the score. I know my criteria are different from those of the people who keep "the list," but in my mind, riding on someone else's clout, without acknowledging they were a neo-Nazi shirbird, sucks.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 05:52:03 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 08, 2024, 03:38:57 AM
Tekumel as a setting itself, that is a tricky question. The Tsolyanu society is clearly rainbow friendly with legions with membership solely of gay men. There are basically a feminist "strong independent woman" type gender status called Aridani, where by a woman can go to a temple and claim a legal status as a male basically, with the male responsibilities connected to it and get a harem of beta males or females. The society allows all kinds of gender/sexual expression fluidity as a norm. Every kind of deviancy is supposedly practised "in some of the temples", and that mean every kind you can think of.

Essentially all of that was lifted from the cultures Barker was copying from. Many, if not most, native American groups have multiple acknowledged genders. Claiming a legal status as a "man" is something that was practiced in a number of Plains Indians groups, where they were otherwise treated more like valuable property. The Dine (Navajo) have four acknowledged genders, and didn't seem to get very perplexed about people coloring outside the lines; sometimes their conception of transgenderism, fluidity, and the like is called a fifth gender. The Spanish missionaries in the Americas were constantly perplexed, amazed, and occasionally enraged by the native peoples' accommodations with what we call homosexuality, transgender, gender non-comformity, etc. If you look globally, many societies with otherwise rigid gender roles come up with "escape hatches" and special roles for people who just won't or can't conform.

Tekumel also draws on Barker's pet interest, India, and in India, the hijra still exists in some form. These were intersex, eunuch, transgender, and other gender non-conforming people with a feminine presentation. They are culturally and legally recognized throughout the region as a third gender. Although their ability to do conventional work is often limited, they do have acknowledged social and ceremonial roles with a positive connotation.

I don't read too much into it ideologically. Barker viewed the Tsolyani patronizingly anyway. As a linguist with some minor interest in history and archaeology, Barker was aware that such variations in gender and sexuality are common throughout the world and throughout history. There are a lot of things he had choices about, that he chose because it made a better game. He decided it was hot and metal was rare, which made the civilization look more like the Mayans and so forth, and also justified putting topless women on every other page. The "woman who assumes the status of a man" concept was useful, because it allowed him both to have harems of subject women, and exotic fighting women who could then have hot hero sex with other women or with men. He had gay warrior fraternties, who knows? Because it amused him, because he was taking a dig at Ernst Rohm, because it was a noteworthy detail to his traveler mind, because it was an interesting parallel to the Theban Band, the Spartans, Athenian pederasty, etc. He was a mid 20th century man in love with late 19th century tourism and colonialism. Very little about his work feels surprising in light of that.  Like a Robert Howard who never grew out of it. That is what I though he WAS, just that, before all the Nazi stuff came out.

As to the question, "How do you feel about the people publishing his work now?" They continued to publish, and promote, the work of a neo-Nazi without letting people know the score. I know my criteria are different from those of the people who keep "the list," but in my mind, riding on someone else's clout, without acknowledging they were a neo-Nazi shirbird, sucks.

Ah yes, the famous Nazi tolerance for gays and other cultures...

He either wasn't one (press X to doubt) or his beliefs aren't in Tekumel and you are a lying twat.

I guess youj're just as mad towards those publishing Mao's little red book right?

Fucking lying twat.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2024, 06:01:12 PM
Ah yes, the famous Nazi tolerance for gays and other cultures...

Ernst Rohm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm)

Nazis tolerated absolutely anything and everything that was useful to them. Hitler made several of his Jewish-descended acquaintances from the old days, such as his chauffeur and some Wermacht officers, into Honorary Aryans so he could continue to enjoy their friendship and services instead of deporting them. The Japanese were "honorary Aryans." Every last one of them.

So I get you're going for hyperbole, but the Nazis weren't known for their integrity. First and foremost, Nazism is about power, and the first rule of power is that it's greatest if you're allowed to do something, and someone else isn't.

Nazis had no problem with sex tourism in Asia and Africa, I don't know why you think Barker would be any different.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 05:52:03 PMAs to the question, "How do you feel about the people publishing his work now?" They continued to publish, and promote, the work of a neo-Nazi without letting people know the score. I know my criteria are different from those of the people who keep "the list," but in my mind, riding on someone else's clout, without acknowledging they were a neo-Nazi shirbird, sucks.

I feel the same about scumbags that support domestic terrorists Antifa, and race grifters BLM.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 06:35:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 05:52:03 PMAs to the question, "How do you feel about the people publishing his work now?" They continued to publish, and promote, the work of a neo-Nazi without letting people know the score. I know my criteria are different from those of the people who keep "the list," but in my mind, riding on someone else's clout, without acknowledging they were a neo-Nazi shirbird, sucks.

I feel the same about scumbags that support domestic terrorists Antifa, and race grifters BLM.

So they should get the same rating?

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 06:45:12 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 06:35:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 05:52:03 PMAs to the question, "How do you feel about the people publishing his work now?" They continued to publish, and promote, the work of a neo-Nazi without letting people know the score. I know my criteria are different from those of the people who keep "the list," but in my mind, riding on someone else's clout, without acknowledging they were a neo-Nazi shirbird, sucks.

I feel the same about scumbags that support domestic terrorists Antifa, and race grifters BLM.

So they should get the same rating?

Rating on what? The Richter scale?

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 06:52:40 PM
Rating on what? The Richter scale?

(points to thread title)

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 07:06:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 06:52:40 PM
Rating on what? The Richter scale?

(points to thread title)

As people have told you ad nauseum, the setting has nothing to do with Nazism, and none of the sales going to helping Nazism. As opposed to the extant publishers you support, that push and fund dangerous ideologies.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 07:36:00 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 07:06:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 06:52:40 PM
Rating on what? The Richter scale?

(points to thread title)

As people have told you ad nauseum, the setting has nothing to do with Nazism, and none of the sales going to helping Nazism. As opposed to the extant publishers you support, that push and fund dangerous ideologies.

Listen, princess, the only publisher I support is me.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 09:44:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 07:36:00 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 07:06:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2024, 06:52:40 PM
Rating on what? The Richter scale?

(points to thread title)

As people have told you ad nauseum, the setting has nothing to do with Nazism, and none of the sales going to helping Nazism. As opposed to the extant publishers you support, that push and fund dangerous ideologies.

Listen, princess, the only publisher I support is me.

That's good, because no customers do.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 06:08:43 AMand yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

That is the big one there. He did it despite knowing damn well that if found out it was not going to end well. If he was doing it to mess with them then its in bad taste at the very least. But Ive seen it before so who knows. But at the end of the day he was up to something and all we have are his scant comments. All of which lean to it not being a joke.

Theres also the weird way he goes at it. Really secretive. And yet out in the open too. Part of me feels like this validates my observation before about neo-nazis not being able to keep a lid on their activities.

Years ago I found that out the hard way. Was talking with a video game developer and I disagreed with something he said and out of the blue he starts screaming "You Jew! You filthy Jew!" and that was the last I had to do with them or their game. A game they never delivered. Funny how that is.

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2024, 06:49:40 AM
As I already said multiple times, immaterial anyway. Dude is dead and Tekumel doesn't have anything to do with Nazism, so as you already stated we should just see who is publishing it and use that as a metric for support (i.e. spending money).

Depends on who gets ahold of it. Look what happened to the fake Star Frontiers.

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 05:20:32 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 06:08:43 AMand yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

That is the big one there. He did it despite knowing damn well that if found out it was not going to end well. If he was doing it to mess with them then its in bad taste at the very least. But Ive seen it before so who knows. But at the end of the day he was up to something and all we have are his scant comments. All of which lean to it not being a joke.

Theres also the weird way he goes at it. Really secretive. And yet out in the open too. Part of me feels like this validates my observation before about neo-nazis not being able to keep a lid on their activities.

Years ago I found that out the hard way. Was talking with a video game developer and I disagreed with something he said and out of the blue he starts screaming "You Jew! You filthy Jew!" and that was the last I had to do with them or their game. A game they never delivered. Funny how that is.

I had a friend, a progressive alternative rock guy. Then a couple of years later, he was talking about how rap wasn't music and there was nothing wrong with ethno-socialism. So then I got to thinking about how years earlier we had gotten into an argument because he said GURPS was about "point-jewing" and I objected to the term, and he said I was being stupid, and no one said stuff like that seriously. So that's when I realized he  must have been basically, you know, that all along. And there's that movie This is England. That's really how it is. People present themselves a certain way: they're a hippie, they're a Mormon, they're an Eagle Scout, they're a best-selling children's author, whatever. And then you scratch the paint and you find out something else about them, and it's surprising and depressing. I don't know.

With Barker, he joined the editorial board of the Journal of Historical Review after basically retiring from mainstream academia. To me that really just says it all. When he didn't have to stop pretending any more, that's who he was. He had a career as an intellectual, and when he had a choice, he decided to get into the Holocaust denial business. He had success with Tekumel, and then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that. It seems pretty straightforward to me, that was his deal, that was who he was, if you asked him in his heart of hearts, that's what he believed. He was an authoritarian, intellectually dishonest racist, who thought it was very important that we not shed unnecessary tears for Jews.

It's not just objectionable matter here or there. If you look at the timeline, there is a story. Beginning, middle, end.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:01:48 PMand then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that.

Except the book is not as pro-Nazi. In fact the characters are weirdly accepting. By the end of the book its more socialist or neo-communist than straight up Nazi spiel.

So it is not as clear whats going on with Barkers actions as it should be. He's doing X and Y for sure. But Y doesnt ring quite as true.

But you still have the problem he did it. And even if it was some fucked up lark, it is still well past fucked up. I dont care if he planned this as some sort of big journalistic expose "I spent 5 years as a Nazi!" book. It just comes across as in bad taste. And theres no indicators other than the bits in Serpent Walk to even suggest that, far as I have come across.

But none of that show in Tekumel. Thank god.

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 06:30:49 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:01:48 PMand then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that.

Except the book is not as pro-Nazi.

Oh, fuck off.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:40:10 PM
Oh, fuck off.

What an excellent refutation and compelling argument. You have convinced me never to read another Tekumel book ever again.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 09:55:11 PM
Ahmedinajad is a Muslim anti-semite, writing in Muslim circles. Your argument is that maybe M.A.R. Barker, being a Muslim convert, was an anti-semite more for religious rather than neo-nazi ideas. The main flaw I see with that as an historian is that as far as I know, no evidence has been uncovered of his supporting MUSLIM Anti-semitic organizations or contributing in any way to that kind of activity, but he clearly did involve himself, for many many years, in Neo-Nazi organizations.

I did already say that I agree that there's no reason why, now that money from it won't go to Barker, that Tekumel can't continue to be printed. I never saw anything political about it, which is why this revelation about Barkers abominable secret activities were such a shock when they came to light.

Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute. He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job. He's dead and can't defend himself either way. Tekumel is certainly not Nazi-oriented whatsoever and his publishers aren't Nazis, either, so I'm gonna just treat him like HPL and say he might have been a horrible person but Tekumel is a good product and no Nazis are profiting so this is merely an exercise in character assassination to sully the TEKUMEL PROPERTY and make anyone who likes Tekumel a fucking Nazi by some ludicrous associative property." I just brought up Ahmedinajad as a real-world example to dispute the notion that Holocaust denial is a definitive Nazi-only view.

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2024, 06:49:49 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 09:55:11 PM
Ahmedinajad is a Muslim anti-semite, writing in Muslim circles. Your argument is that maybe M.A.R. Barker, being a Muslim convert, was an anti-semite more for religious rather than neo-nazi ideas. The main flaw I see with that as an historian is that as far as I know, no evidence has been uncovered of his supporting MUSLIM Anti-semitic organizations or contributing in any way to that kind of activity, but he clearly did involve himself, for many many years, in Neo-Nazi organizations.

I did already say that I agree that there's no reason why, now that money from it won't go to Barker, that Tekumel can't continue to be printed. I never saw anything political about it, which is why this revelation about Barkers abominable secret activities were such a shock when they came to light.

Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute. He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job. He's dead and can't defend himself either way. Tekumel is certainly not Nazi-oriented whatsoever and his publishers aren't Nazis, either, so I'm gonna just treat him like HPL and say he might have been a horrible person but Tekumel is a good product and no Nazis are profiting so this is merely an exercise in character assassination to sully the TEKUMEL PROPERTY and make anyone who likes Tekumel a fucking Nazi by some ludicrous associative property." I just brought up Ahmedinajad as a real-world example to dispute the notion that Holocaust denial is a definitive Nazi-only view.

Greetings!

Excellent analysis, Brad! That is exactly my view of this MAR Barker, and Tekumel.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

When this news broke 2 years ago I went and found a pdf of MAR Barker's novel Serpent's Walk online.

And I read it. Cover to cover.

It is a pro-Nazi screed written as revenge porn for the white nationalist pseudointellectuals of the English world: the Jews won the Second World War, the SS went underground and learned from the Jews. They invested for a century, built up their networks, built up their economic clout, and began controlling the media. Just like the Jews do now, you see.

There's a love interest. There are some "good Jews" that eventually get what's coming to them. There is some worldbuilding and discussion of how things under white rule will be better, once the Jews are finally defeated.

There is nothing redeeming or unambiguous about Serpent's Walk and its author's views. The fact that an esteemed academic like MAR Barker sat on the board of a notorious faux-historical academic (non-peer reviewed!) journal devoted to denying the Holocaust is a testament to just how stupid Jew-hate makes people. Even people who are otherwise smart.

As for the people who publish Tekumel: it seems about as "problematic" as all the other fantasy worlds out there already. Interpret my air quotes as you will.  The publishers aren't Nazis, and no money is going towards Holocaust denial or Nazi causes. I don't know what the big deal is.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:40:10 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 06:30:49 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:01:48 PMand then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that.

Except the book is not as pro-Nazi.

Oh, fuck off.

That you do not like it does not change the fact that Serpent Walk is a bit of a failure at being pro-Nazi. I read through the damn thing. Its still a bunch of Nazis trying to bring world peace. "Live and let live." These two things should not go together.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on February 10, 2024, 10:35:10 PM
When this news broke 2 years ago I went and found a pdf of MAR Barker's novel Serpent's Walk online.

And I read it. Cover to cover.

Apparently without actually reading it if you came to those conclusions.

And lets be clear.

I read it EXPECTING to come away with the same conclusions as you.

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2024, 06:49:49 PM
Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute.

It's not.

Quote
He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job.

Check your dates. He joined the editorial board after the end of his conventional academic career. He knew it would be career ending, so he waited until he was more or less retired, and then on the record as a Holocaust denying neo-Nazi. Interpret his motivations as you will.

One big difference between Barker and Lovecraft is that I don't play in Lovecraft's world. He had all this alien and mysticism stuff, and then there was New England. If I play Call of Cthulhu, I'm not adopting his experience of living in Rhode Island, I don't accept his racism as founded in fact, I'm not creating fan fiction for Racist New England With Aliens In It. I'm just adopting the supernatural elements, and depending on what flavor I'm playing, I may be playing in the same decade and in the same geographic region.

If you run Tekumel out of the book, and I don't see any way it's likely to be run, you are playing in an imaginary world that exists only in Barker's brain. Maybe it's not a bad idea to get caught up on your intellectual inoculations before you go full Tekumel. There is a hardcore Tekumel fandom out there, they've had conventions and stuff, they do cosplay and LARP, and if they aren't reeling from all this stuff, there's something wrong with them.

With Lovecraft, it's like, "foreigners are scary!" and I'm like, eh, not so much, Howard. With Barker, you are entering a world where the natives are hostile, and will only ever be hostile, and peace with the indigenous people is impossible. They have to be stamped out for humans to survive. Not the same thing. And someone is about to say, "Oh, well, the aliens in Tekumel are so alien, of course!" but they were were created in the mind of a real person, and that person was Barker, who felt this was the best way to express his vision for his fantasy world.

It's not even the same, and that's assuming you find vanilla Lovecraft acceptable in the first place, which is not something I would automatically assume. Lovecraft's work invites commentary, a response. Barker's work can only be changed.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 11, 2024, 12:18:47 AMLovecraft's work invites commentary, a response. Barker's work can only be changed.

You're not fit to comment on Lovecraft's bowel movements, never mind the man's actual work. It's kind of Lovecraftian though, the microbe trying to understand something too large for its understanding.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 11, 2024, 12:18:47 AM

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2024, 06:49:49 PM
Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute.

It's not.

Quote
He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job.

Check your dates. He joined the editorial board after the end of his conventional academic career. He knew it would be career ending, so he waited until he was more or less retired, and then on the record as a Holocaust denying neo-Nazi. Interpret his motivations as you will.

One big difference between Barker and Lovecraft is that I don't play in Lovecraft's world. He had all this alien and mysticism stuff, and then there was New England. If I play Call of Cthulhu, I'm not adopting his experience of living in Rhode Island, I don't accept his racism as founded in fact, I'm not creating fan fiction for Racist New England With Aliens In It. I'm just adopting the supernatural elements, and depending on what flavor I'm playing, I may be playing in the same decade and in the same geographic region.

If you run Tekumel out of the book, and I don't see any way it's likely to be run, you are playing in an imaginary world that exists only in Barker's brain. Maybe it's not a bad idea to get caught up on your intellectual inoculations before you go full Tekumel. There is a hardcore Tekumel fandom out there, they've had conventions and stuff, they do cosplay and LARP, and if they aren't reeling from all this stuff, there's something wrong with them.

With Lovecraft, it's like, "foreigners are scary!" and I'm like, eh, not so much, Howard. With Barker, you are entering a world where the natives are hostile, and will only ever be hostile, and peace with the indigenous people is impossible. They have to be stamped out for humans to survive. Not the same thing. And someone is about to say, "Oh, well, the aliens in Tekumel are so alien, of course!" but they were were created in the mind of a real person, and that person was Barker, who felt this was the best way to express his vision for his fantasy world.

It's not even the same, and that's assuming you find vanilla Lovecraft acceptable in the first place, which is not something I would automatically assume. Lovecraft's work invites commentary, a response. Barker's work can only be changed.

That's a lot of words to basically say you're a fucking idiot.

Quote from: Brad on February 11, 2024, 03:42:43 PM
That's a lot of words to basically say you're a fucking idiot.

Better an idiot than a batboy for the SS. You keep acting like Barker's academic legacy is defensible. Why would you even argue that, if you didn't sense that Tekumel was a rotten apple? You're trying to claim Barker wasn't a neo-Nazi, probably because you want to claim it's therefore impossible Tekumel was tainted by his neo-Nazism.

This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Why?  So far, the only thing I think that has been firmly established is that MAR Barker was a racist piece of shit.  I've still not seen anything (outside some post-modernist ramblings by some reality-challenged posters) that even asserts his views are promoted in the game itself.  Yellow and red are for publishers who use their games and platforms to preach ideology at you, and, based off of the fact that we're just discussing this many years after his death, it's kind of hard to accuse Tekumel of that...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 15, 2024, 06:45:23 AM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Why?  So far, the only thing I think that has been firmly established is that MAR Barker was a racist piece of shit.  I've still not seen anything (outside some post-modernist ramblings by some reality-challenged posters) that even asserts his views are promoted in the game itself.  Yellow and red are for publishers who use their games and platforms to preach ideology at you, and, based off of the fact that we're just discussing this many years after his death, it's kind of hard to accuse Tekumel of that...

Well, first of all, fuck you, darling, but anyway my impression was "the list" is supposed to be about publishers who are bad for their customers in various ways, including ethically, and while you may feel differently, I tend to think that sitting on the fact that Tekumel was written by a neo-Nazi Holocast denier and not giving people the information to make an informed choice is pretty much the definition of unethical.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 15, 2024, 11:00:44 AM
Well, first of all, fuck you, darling, but anyway my impression was "the list" is supposed to be about publishers who are bad for their customers in various ways, including ethically, and while you may feel differently, I tend to think that sitting on the fact that Tekumel was written by a neo-Nazi Holocast denier and not giving people the information to make an informed choice is pretty much the definition of unethical.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/consumers-guide-to-ttrpgs/

Why don't you go ask Ocule if it's about "publishers who are bad for their customers in various ways"?  The fact that the only change that happened as a result of this was the publisher putting some disclaimer and some totally unrelated Jewish charity getting free dollars means that this isn't really about any actual standard the list has set.

The only thing that's really the non-lefty intolerant version of what WotC and friends openly engage in is something like Myfarog by Vikernes, a  comedicly intolerant weirdo who appears to be more racially exclusive than the Nazi's ideology or policies. This was essentially a one-man racist  operation, of course, and the reason it's on the list is implied by the text to be that the work itself seems created to actually carry the racist views.

By contrast, Tekumel has all these wacky accusations like "well this fantasy world has some races that suck" and "M.A.R. Barker noticed the same thing a lot of historians do about history", none of which are anywhere close to "Vikernes literally has blacks and Jews with bad racial stats and disparaging sentences about them" and nothing even rises to the level of "guys like me can't leave fast enough" out of WotC executives.

Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

So no, the work itself is not really tainted, though of course some people might not want to buy it on account of the man who wrote it (even if that man is dead and the money wouldn't go to his causes).

Quote from: pawsplay on February 14, 2024, 09:36:54 PM
Better an idiot than a batboy for the SS. You keep acting like Barker's academic legacy is defensible. Why would you even argue that, if you didn't sense that Tekumel was a rotten apple? You're trying to claim Barker wasn't a neo-Nazi, probably because you want to claim it's therefore impossible Tekumel was tainted by his neo-Nazism.

You mad, bro?

Classic example of a Marxist getting upset when someone pokes holes in their horseshit argument.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

So no, the work itself is not really tainted, though of course some people might not want to buy it on account of the man who wrote it (even if that man is dead and the money wouldn't go to his causes).

But that's just it. I am/was legitimately perplexed about this whole thing because I can't see ANYTHING that seems Nazi-esque in Tekumel at all. I'm not the world's biggest fan or anything, but it always just seemed like some weird fucked up demon worshiping Indian-inspired Thundarr the Barbarian gaming world. I even was going over Swords and Glory last night and unless this is another, "Hitler drank water!" scenario, I doubt anyone with a functioning brain could read this stuff and think Barker was a Nazi. If you want to get into a debate about whether or not to support the Tekumel foundation because of stuff he did, well, whatever, but that's not what's happening and everyone, with a functioning brain who isn't a Marxist shill, can see that.

Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2024, 07:29:28 PMbut that's not what's happening and everyone, with a functioning brain who isn't a Marxist shill, can see that.

Your statement seems redundant. Have you ever encountered a Marxist shill with a functional brain?

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation. When the neo-Nazi came out, it just made the context more clear and explicit, whereas the motivations or prejudices weren't crystal clear before. "And in this setting, genocide is completely justified," just raises a few hairs on the necks.

I think you just didn't hear more about criticism of the setting, because the fanbase was aging. The diehards would not be eager to criticize something they were completely in love with, and a lot of people simply never read the source. I first read anything actually Tekumel starting with the Guardians of Order book, and only got the POD reprints of the original sets of Drivethru maybe a year before the information about Barker broke.

It's not "a secret group of SS soldiers emerging to retake Western civilization" grade stuff, but it was always problematic material, and that would have always have been obvious to a lot of people who read it. It was just on the "summer reading list" of RPGs... something you were told was important, but very few people actually read it.

It is *not* subtle.

Quote
Extensive terraforming was required. Human technology defeated the Ssu, the Hlyss, and the deadly flora and fauna of Tekumel. The planet was gradually turned into another Earth (now long-lost, far away across the galaxy). The blood-purplish jungles were poisoned with chemicals and replaced with the family plants of the hundred worlds of Humanspace. The oceans were empited of most of their deadly inhabitants. The Ssu and others were allowed to survive only upon remote "reservations," closely watched by human defensive technology.

So on page 3, we learn that the Sioux were exterminated and placed on reservations, and the native ecosystem was replaced by the colonizers.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation. When the neo-Nazi came out, it just made the context more clear and explicit, whereas the motivations or prejudices weren't crystal clear before. "And in this setting, genocide is completely justified," just raises a few hairs on the necks.

I think you just didn't hear more about criticism of the setting, because the fanbase was aging. The diehards would not be eager to criticize something they were completely in love with, and a lot of people simply never read the source. I first read anything actually Tekumel starting with the Guardians of Order book, and only got the POD reprints of the original sets of Drivethru maybe a year before the information about Barker broke.

It's not "a secret group of SS soldiers emerging to retake Western civilization" grade stuff, but it was always problematic material, and that would have always have been obvious to a lot of people who read it. It was just on the "summer reading list" of RPGs... something you were told was important, but very few people actually read it.

It is *not* subtle.

Quote
Extensive terraforming was required. Human technology defeated the Ssu, the Hlyss, and the deadly flora and fauna of Tekumel. The planet was gradually turned into another Earth (now long-lost, far away across the galaxy). The blood-purplish jungles were poisoned with chemicals and replaced with the family plants of the hundred worlds of Humanspace. The oceans were empited of most of their deadly inhabitants. The Ssu and others were allowed to survive only upon remote "reservations," closely watched by human defensive technology.

So on page 3, we learn that the Sioux were exterminated and placed on reservations, and the native ecosystem was replaced by the colonizers.

Why do you always lie?

"I always felt it was problematic!" No, you didn't you lying cunt, neither did anyone else in leftardistan.

The Ssu, the Hlyss WEREN'T "exterminated" they were put on reservations, also not the Sioux you lying cunt.

As for replacin the flora and fauna, it's called terraforming you imbecilic lying cunt.

Greetings!

So, what is wrong with changing an environment full of dangerous, and hostile animals and plants? We do this all the time, every day, and everywhere. Construction companies, Extermination companies, chemical companies, and whole gardening and landscape industries are largely built upon such a foundation.

As for dangerous, alien races? Yeah, they need to be crushed. No one feels all weepy and bent out of shape when you step on and crush a cockroach. Or trap and kill rats. Or hunt down and crush the effing spiders. Many women, as you may be quite familiar, *demand* that these dangerous creatures be crushed and wiped out at every opportunity. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM
So on page 3, we learn that the Sioux were exterminated and placed on reservations, and the native ecosystem was replaced by the colonizers.

Like what? Now you're just becoming a parody of yourself at this point.

Quote from: SHARK on February 16, 2024, 04:13:35 AM
So, what is wrong with changing an environment full of dangerous, and hostile animals and plants? We do this all the time, every day, and everywhere. Construction companies, Extermination companies, chemical companies, and whole gardening and landscape industries are largely built upon such a foundation.

As for dangerous, alien races? Yeah, they need to be crushed. No one feels all weepy and bent out of shape when you step on and crush a cockroach.

I haven't read enough of Tekumel to have an opinion on neonazi themes in it. (I own Swords & Glory, but I've only ever played in two one-shots that someone else ran.) I'm reading Serpent's Walk now, though.

Any student of history knows that things like the Trail of Tears, reservations, and camps happened as part of colonization. So having aliens forced onto reservations as part of colonization isn't a signal of neonazi anything. It's a reference to real-world history. But the question is, is there a distinctly neonazi take on colonization that is different from how others would write about it? To illustrate, one of the big points of Holocaust denial is denying the gas chambers. Neonazis like to say that many Jewish people died in the camps, but what happened to Jewish people in Germany isn't any different than what happened to Native American people, or what happened in Belgian Congo, or any other clashes of culture.

Neonazi science fantasy colonization would likely be different than Star Wars and Star Trek, where aliens and humans coexist and are often buddies with each other.

Has anyone read Barker's Tekumel novels, like Man of Gold? I think that might signal a little more clearly his views on Tekumel colonization, and it would be interesting to compare to Serpent's Walk.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation. When the neo-Nazi came out, it just made the context more clear and explicit, whereas the motivations or prejudices weren't crystal clear before. "And in this setting, genocide is completely justified," just raises a few hairs on the necks.

And had Barker donated to Jewish orphanages, this guy would have been "neato, what an creative guy."

Hindsight/confirmation bias is a hell of a drug folks.

Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2024, 01:48:10 PM
I'm reading Serpent's Walk now, though.

Nazis walk among us!!  :o ;D

Seriously, why give them what they want? Some things are better ignored. I feel like reading Far Left or Far Right stuff, a little piece of my soul dies.

Should Raymond E. Feist and all of his millions of fans now be castigated as Neo-Nazi sympathizers since Feist clearly wholesale ripped off Tekumel for his Riftwar books? I mean... those brown-skinned Aztec/Japanese samurai were clearly influenced by Nazi ideology as they broke through interdimensional barriers to exterminate a world full of natives for their resources.

... of course maybe Ray Feist was showing forethought in that those natives were European analogs and he was trying to wipe out Whitey... I mean it's possible right? /sarcasm off.

So 40-years and nearly 30-novels later, and no one claimed Ray Feist's clear interpretation of Tekumel is Nazi propaganda for obvious reasons. pawsplay, you're an idiot.


Edit: and for all the "Bury My Heart and Wounded Knee" fans, I highly recommend "Empire of the Summer Moon" as a counterpoint. I can't stand the noble savage myth that everyone pretends all Native Americans are the same and as if "they" didn't commit atrocities as a matter of course... yes horrible shit was done on both sides, and pretending the conflict was solely to blame on the more organized and powerful Europeans is *stupid* argument, when in reality it was two cultures colliding inevitably towards one another with obvious detrimental results.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM...for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought {that Tekumel was advocating for racist worldviews} until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation.

Historically, almost every civilization and nation-group has conflicted with others, and demonized and exploited the losers of such conflicts. Are you saying there is no way to depict this phenomenon in a fictional setting, among fictional cultures and species, without it serving as an effective endorsement of racial/bio-supremacism in real life? Or that because the intended primary home culture for PCs, the Tsolyani Empire, is depicted as the winner (or at least a surviving descendant of the winner) of such conflicts, the players are intended to pick up the supremacist attitudes of the Tsolyani?

I think it is within the bounds of reason to acknowledge that Barker held racist beliefs and to assert that Tekumel in particular was neither meant to teach those beliefs nor in fact ever actually taught them, even accidentally. If that message is being read into Tekumel simply because the work doesn't explicitly state to the reader racial-supremacy beliefs are objectively false and/or morally wrong... well, there is no way to falsify that argument, but an unfalsifiable argument is too easily applied to too many things to be convincing.

Quote from: S'mon on February 16, 2024, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2024, 01:48:10 PM
I'm reading Serpent's Walk now, though.

Nazis walk among us!!  :o ;D

Seriously, why give them what they want? Some things are better ignored. I feel like reading Far Left or Far Right stuff, a little piece of my soul dies.

Eh. It's a good idea to judge something on it's real aspects and not what others report. If one is going to comment on the book, they really should read it first.
One of jhkim's redeeming qualities is that he does do some of the grunt work in that respect.

Quote from: tenbones on February 16, 2024, 04:38:48 PM
Should Raymond E. Feist and all of his millions of fans now be castigated as Neo-Nazi sympathizers since Feist clearly wholesale ripped off Tekumel for his Riftwar books? I mean... those brown-skinned Aztec/Japanese samurai were clearly influenced by Nazi ideology as they broke through interdimensional barriers to exterminate a world full of natives for their resources.

... of course maybe Ray Feist was showing forethought in that those natives were European analogs and he was trying to wipe out Whitey... I mean it's possible right? /sarcasm off.

So 40-years and nearly 30-novels later, and no one claimed Ray Feist's clear interpretation of Tekumel is Nazi propaganda for obvious reasons. pawsplay, you're an idiot.


Edit: and for all the "Bury My Heart and Wounded Knee" fans, I highly recommend "Empire of the Summer Moon" as a counterpoint. I can't stand the noble savage myth that everyone pretends all Native Americans are the same and as if "they" didn't commit atrocities as a matter of course... yes horrible shit was done on both sides, and pretending the conflict was solely to blame on the more organized and powerful Europeans is *stupid* argument, when in reality it was two cultures colliding inevitably towards one another with obvious detrimental results.

As an actual "Native American" (everyone I know still says American Indian...) I can safely say the tribes ranged from savages to erudite sophisticates. But not one of them ever thought they weren't the center of the universe, nor the only race of people who should be on top and in charge. And what's wrong with that? Just like the Japanese got buttfucked in WWII and found out who the real masters were, so did the Indians. And the ones who embraced the superior culture thrived, others wallowed in misery and did jack shit. Smart people do what works to advance, dumbasses cling to failed ideologies. The Cherokees developed a written language and became an exalted group, the Comanche were crushed and eradicated. So basically, life is nasty, brutish, and short. Adapt and overcome.

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Tekumel the setting and RPG is not even remotely in the yellow. Try again please.

Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2024, 01:48:10 PM
Has anyone read Barker's Tekumel novels, like Man of Gold? I think that might signal a little more clearly his views on Tekumel colonization, and it would be interesting to compare to Serpent's Walk.

I read Man of Gold. Nothing in it just like theres nothing in the RPG. My only quibble is that it is a bit disjointed in the flow of action. I have the other book but have not yet gotten around to reading it.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 09, 2024, 06:09:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2024, 06:01:12 PM
Ah yes, the famous Nazi tolerance for gays and other cultures...

Ernst Rohm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm)

Nazis tolerated absolutely anything and everything that was useful to them. Hitler made several of his Jewish-descended acquaintances from the old days, such as his chauffeur and some Wermacht officers, into Honorary Aryans so he could continue to enjoy their friendship and services instead of deporting them. The Japanese were "honorary Aryans." Every last one of them.

So I get you're going for hyperbole, but the Nazis weren't known for their integrity. First and foremost, Nazism is about power, and the first rule of power is that it's greatest if you're allowed to do something, and someone else isn't.

Nazis had no problem with sex tourism in Asia and Africa, I don't know why you think Barker would be any different.

Why Nazis don't sound homophobic, antisemitic, or racist, at all.

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 06:30:49 PM
Except the book is not as pro-Nazi. In fact the characters are weirdly accepting. By the end of the book its more socialist or neo-communist than straight up Nazi spiel.

[butterfly meme] is this a Nazi?

Quote from: Venka on February 15, 2024, 11:26:33 AM
The only thing that's really the non-lefty intolerant version of what WotC and friends openly engage in is something like Myfarog by Vikernes,

Ironically the game is quite anti-capitalist though.

Gosh, but ideologies sure are inconsistent.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 17, 2024, 01:23:49 AM
Ironically the game is quite anti-capitalist though.
Gosh, but ideologies sure are inconsistent.

That National Socialists are anti-Capitalist isn't inconsistent at all. Clue is in the name. Nazis think Capitalists and Communists are two sides of the same (Jewish) coin. Same as Communists think Nazis and Capitalists are two side of the same coin.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 16, 2024, 07:33:19 PM
Eh. It's a good idea to judge something on it's real aspects and not what others report. If one is going to comment on the book, they really should read it first.
One of jhkim's redeeming qualities is that he does do some of the grunt work in that respect.

In this case I don't think there's any serious dispute about its "Nazis are cool" contents.
I don't think there's any serious dispute about Tekumel not having any Real Nazi (TM) content, either. Obviously blowhards will bloviate and cranks will crank.
But yes in the case of a serious & specific allegation, like the ones made against Zak and Pundit and Mearls etc etc, reading the evidence rather than taking people's word for it is definitely a good idea. Or if I really cared about exactly how Nazi the Nazi book published by the Nazi publisher is, I'd want to read it. But I'm aware that comes with a cost in 'emotional labour' as the SJWs put it. Another example - Natural Born Killers is a disgusting film, if I really had to watch it again for research on exactly what Stone was going for then I'd do so. But I'd much rather not.

Quote from: Omega on February 16, 2024, 11:41:40 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Tekumel the setting and RPG is not even remotely in the yellow. Try again please.

I've never read any Tekumel.

If I take this thread at face value, the author was indisputably some kind of Islamist and/or neo-nazi, and nobody knew about this for some indeterminate length of time because it never showed up in his work.

That sounds like the very definition of green.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 17, 2024, 08:29:18 AM

Quote from: Omega on February 16, 2024, 11:41:40 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Tekumel the setting and RPG is not even remotely in the yellow. Try again please.

I've never read any Tekumel.

If I take this thread at face value, the author was indisputably some kind of Islamist and/or neo-nazi, and nobody knew about this for some indeterminate length of time because it never showed up in his work.

That sounds like the very definition of green.

Sure, if you don´t count the advocacy group part as being political, the "apolitical" is part of the Green rating. Resisting one type of politics is politics imo. though personally I don´t care either way, I´m more interested about the results on the concensus of this than anything else.

The author is dead and does not profit from his book. If he were alive, and would stand to profit from his book, he should be right besides Olivia Hill and Varg. But as he's not, his game world can be judged on its own merit, and that of whoever is the current publisher.

What was the last Tekumel product Barker put out?

Last thing I saw at cons was the Growing up/Adventures in series of solos?

Quote from: Brad on February 16, 2024, 08:20:19 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 16, 2024, 04:38:48 PM
Should Raymond E. Feist and all of his millions of fans now be castigated as Neo-Nazi sympathizers since Feist clearly wholesale ripped off Tekumel for his Riftwar books? I mean... those brown-skinned Aztec/Japanese samurai were clearly influenced by Nazi ideology as they broke through interdimensional barriers to exterminate a world full of natives for their resources.

... of course maybe Ray Feist was showing forethought in that those natives were European analogs and he was trying to wipe out Whitey... I mean it's possible right? /sarcasm off.

So 40-years and nearly 30-novels later, and no one claimed Ray Feist's clear interpretation of Tekumel is Nazi propaganda for obvious reasons. pawsplay, you're an idiot.


Edit: and for all the "Bury My Heart and Wounded Knee" fans, I highly recommend "Empire of the Summer Moon" as a counterpoint. I can't stand the noble savage myth that everyone pretends all Native Americans are the same and as if "they" didn't commit atrocities as a matter of course... yes horrible shit was done on both sides, and pretending the conflict was solely to blame on the more organized and powerful Europeans is *stupid* argument, when in reality it was two cultures colliding inevitably towards one another with obvious detrimental results.

As an actual "Native American" (everyone I know still says American Indian...) I can safely say the tribes ranged from savages to erudite sophisticates. But not one of them ever thought they weren't the center of the universe, nor the only race of people who should be on top and in charge. And what's wrong with that? Just like the Japanese got buttfucked in WWII and found out who the real masters were, so did the Indians. And the ones who embraced the superior culture thrived, others wallowed in misery and did jack shit. Smart people do what works to advance, dumbasses cling to failed ideologies. The Cherokees developed a written language and became an exalted group, the Comanche were crushed and eradicated. So basically, life is nasty, brutish, and short. Adapt and overcome.

Yep. I'm filipino - tons of different tribes. All of them enslaved for 350+years. No one gripes about it because its history. Life happens. And yes, we're former cannibals, and we eat dogs (some still do), and other horrible things people in the west would freak out over. But there are many Filipinos that likewise freak out over those things, and not all tribes did those things. Ultimately, though, it's the monolith grouping of everyone together for the purposes of making some stupid point *outside* of the complexities of reality that Shit does, in fact, Happen(tm) and carrying a chip on ones shoulder for stuff you didn't live through, nor *have* to live through now, isn't necessarily beneficial for the purposes of moving forward.

Unless you have an agenda (not you Brad). Which is why pawsplay is an idiot.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 16, 2024, 05:33:38 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM...for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought {that Tekumel was advocating for racist worldviews} until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation.

Historically, almost every civilization and nation-group has conflicted with others, and demonized and exploited the losers of such conflicts. Are you saying there is no way to depict this phenomenon in a fictional setting, among fictional cultures and species, without it serving as an effective endorsement of racial/bio-supremacism in real life? Or that because the intended primary home culture for PCs, the Tsolyani Empire, is depicted as the winner (or at least a surviving descendant of the winner) of such conflicts, the players are intended to pick up the supremacist attitudes of the Tsolyani?

I think it is within the bounds of reason to acknowledge that Barker held racist beliefs and to assert that Tekumel in particular was neither meant to teach those beliefs nor in fact ever actually taught them, even accidentally. If that message is being read into Tekumel simply because the work doesn't explicitly state to the reader racial-supremacy beliefs are objectively false and/or morally wrong... well, there is no way to falsify that argument, but an unfalsifiable argument is too easily applied to too many things to be convincing.

If only there were some way to tell what Barker's actual attitudes toward supremacy and colonization were. I guess we'll never know.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 19, 2024, 03:03:25 AM
If only there were some way to tell what Barker's actual attitudes toward supremacy and colonization were. I guess we'll never know.

That the man had vile beliefs does not necessarily mean every bit of his work is reprehensible. I'd not read Flamesong and Man of Gold for twenty years, so pulled them off the wall over the weekend and started on a reread. That a thing is depicted in a book does not mean the  author is promoting it, even if we have external evidence that the author might favour something similar.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 17, 2024, 10:54:05 PM
The author is dead and does not profit from his book. If he were alive, and would stand to profit from his book, he should be right besides Olivia Hill and Varg. But as he's not, his game world can be judged on its own merit, and that of whoever is the current publisher.

The difference is they never used their RPG work as a vehicle to promote their ideology like the latter two are.