This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Why?  So far, the only thing I think that has been firmly established is that MAR Barker was a racist piece of shit.  I've still not seen anything (outside some post-modernist ramblings by some reality-challenged posters) that even asserts his views are promoted in the game itself.  Yellow and red are for publishers who use their games and platforms to preach ideology at you, and, based off of the fact that we're just discussing this many years after his death, it's kind of hard to accuse Tekumel of that...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 15, 2024, 06:45:23 AM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on February 14, 2024, 11:16:08 PM
This conversation is droning on and on with the same arguments
from all sides of the spectrum. I would assume by now that we
can safely say that Tekumel as a setting would be in Yellow category
but what about the current license holder (UNIgames who sends their
proceeds to ethnic/religious advocacy group) and IP holder (The Tekumel
Foundation) there ain't a clear answer for this other than that they ain't Green,
so it is either Yellow or Red, which one is it?

Why?  So far, the only thing I think that has been firmly established is that MAR Barker was a racist piece of shit.  I've still not seen anything (outside some post-modernist ramblings by some reality-challenged posters) that even asserts his views are promoted in the game itself.  Yellow and red are for publishers who use their games and platforms to preach ideology at you, and, based off of the fact that we're just discussing this many years after his death, it's kind of hard to accuse Tekumel of that...

Well, first of all, fuck you, darling, but anyway my impression was "the list" is supposed to be about publishers who are bad for their customers in various ways, including ethically, and while you may feel differently, I tend to think that sitting on the fact that Tekumel was written by a neo-Nazi Holocast denier and not giving people the information to make an informed choice is pretty much the definition of unethical.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 15, 2024, 11:00:44 AM
Well, first of all, fuck you, darling, but anyway my impression was "the list" is supposed to be about publishers who are bad for their customers in various ways, including ethically, and while you may feel differently, I tend to think that sitting on the fact that Tekumel was written by a neo-Nazi Holocast denier and not giving people the information to make an informed choice is pretty much the definition of unethical.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/consumers-guide-to-ttrpgs/

Why don't you go ask Ocule if it's about "publishers who are bad for their customers in various ways"?  The fact that the only change that happened as a result of this was the publisher putting some disclaimer and some totally unrelated Jewish charity getting free dollars means that this isn't really about any actual standard the list has set.

The only thing that's really the non-lefty intolerant version of what WotC and friends openly engage in is something like Myfarog by Vikernes, a  comedicly intolerant weirdo who appears to be more racially exclusive than the Nazi's ideology or policies. This was essentially a one-man racist  operation, of course, and the reason it's on the list is implied by the text to be that the work itself seems created to actually carry the racist views.

By contrast, Tekumel has all these wacky accusations like "well this fantasy world has some races that suck" and "M.A.R. Barker noticed the same thing a lot of historians do about history", none of which are anywhere close to "Vikernes literally has blacks and Jews with bad racial stats and disparaging sentences about them" and nothing even rises to the level of "guys like me can't leave fast enough" out of WotC executives.

Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

So no, the work itself is not really tainted, though of course some people might not want to buy it on account of the man who wrote it (even if that man is dead and the money wouldn't go to his causes).

Quote from: pawsplay on February 14, 2024, 09:36:54 PM
Better an idiot than a batboy for the SS. You keep acting like Barker's academic legacy is defensible. Why would you even argue that, if you didn't sense that Tekumel was a rotten apple? You're trying to claim Barker wasn't a neo-Nazi, probably because you want to claim it's therefore impossible Tekumel was tainted by his neo-Nazism.

You mad, bro?

Classic example of a Marxist getting upset when someone pokes holes in their horseshit argument.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

So no, the work itself is not really tainted, though of course some people might not want to buy it on account of the man who wrote it (even if that man is dead and the money wouldn't go to his causes).

But that's just it. I am/was legitimately perplexed about this whole thing because I can't see ANYTHING that seems Nazi-esque in Tekumel at all. I'm not the world's biggest fan or anything, but it always just seemed like some weird fucked up demon worshiping Indian-inspired Thundarr the Barbarian gaming world. I even was going over Swords and Glory last night and unless this is another, "Hitler drank water!" scenario, I doubt anyone with a functioning brain could read this stuff and think Barker was a Nazi. If you want to get into a debate about whether or not to support the Tekumel foundation because of stuff he did, well, whatever, but that's not what's happening and everyone, with a functioning brain who isn't a Marxist shill, can see that.

Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2024, 07:29:28 PMbut that's not what's happening and everyone, with a functioning brain who isn't a Marxist shill, can see that.

Your statement seems redundant. Have you ever encountered a Marxist shill with a functional brain?

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation. When the neo-Nazi came out, it just made the context more clear and explicit, whereas the motivations or prejudices weren't crystal clear before. "And in this setting, genocide is completely justified," just raises a few hairs on the necks.

I think you just didn't hear more about criticism of the setting, because the fanbase was aging. The diehards would not be eager to criticize something they were completely in love with, and a lot of people simply never read the source. I first read anything actually Tekumel starting with the Guardians of Order book, and only got the POD reprints of the original sets of Drivethru maybe a year before the information about Barker broke.

It's not "a secret group of SS soldiers emerging to retake Western civilization" grade stuff, but it was always problematic material, and that would have always have been obvious to a lot of people who read it. It was just on the "summer reading list" of RPGs... something you were told was important, but very few people actually read it.

It is *not* subtle.

Quote
Extensive terraforming was required. Human technology defeated the Ssu, the Hlyss, and the deadly flora and fauna of Tekumel. The planet was gradually turned into another Earth (now long-lost, far away across the galaxy). The blood-purplish jungles were poisoned with chemicals and replaced with the family plants of the hundred worlds of Humanspace. The oceans were empited of most of their deadly inhabitants. The Ssu and others were allowed to survive only upon remote "reservations," closely watched by human defensive technology.

So on page 3, we learn that the Sioux were exterminated and placed on reservations, and the native ecosystem was replaced by the colonizers.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation. When the neo-Nazi came out, it just made the context more clear and explicit, whereas the motivations or prejudices weren't crystal clear before. "And in this setting, genocide is completely justified," just raises a few hairs on the necks.

I think you just didn't hear more about criticism of the setting, because the fanbase was aging. The diehards would not be eager to criticize something they were completely in love with, and a lot of people simply never read the source. I first read anything actually Tekumel starting with the Guardians of Order book, and only got the POD reprints of the original sets of Drivethru maybe a year before the information about Barker broke.

It's not "a secret group of SS soldiers emerging to retake Western civilization" grade stuff, but it was always problematic material, and that would have always have been obvious to a lot of people who read it. It was just on the "summer reading list" of RPGs... something you were told was important, but very few people actually read it.

It is *not* subtle.

Quote
Extensive terraforming was required. Human technology defeated the Ssu, the Hlyss, and the deadly flora and fauna of Tekumel. The planet was gradually turned into another Earth (now long-lost, far away across the galaxy). The blood-purplish jungles were poisoned with chemicals and replaced with the family plants of the hundred worlds of Humanspace. The oceans were empited of most of their deadly inhabitants. The Ssu and others were allowed to survive only upon remote "reservations," closely watched by human defensive technology.

So on page 3, we learn that the Sioux were exterminated and placed on reservations, and the native ecosystem was replaced by the colonizers.

Why do you always lie?

"I always felt it was problematic!" No, you didn't you lying cunt, neither did anyone else in leftardistan.

The Ssu, the Hlyss WEREN'T "exterminated" they were put on reservations, also not the Sioux you lying cunt.

As for replacin the flora and fauna, it's called terraforming you imbecilic lying cunt.

Greetings!

So, what is wrong with changing an environment full of dangerous, and hostile animals and plants? We do this all the time, every day, and everywhere. Construction companies, Extermination companies, chemical companies, and whole gardening and landscape industries are largely built upon such a foundation.

As for dangerous, alien races? Yeah, they need to be crushed. No one feels all weepy and bent out of shape when you step on and crush a cockroach. Or trap and kill rats. Or hunt down and crush the effing spiders. Many women, as you may be quite familiar, *demand* that these dangerous creatures be crushed and wiped out at every opportunity. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM
So on page 3, we learn that the Sioux were exterminated and placed on reservations, and the native ecosystem was replaced by the colonizers.

Like what? Now you're just becoming a parody of yourself at this point.

Quote from: SHARK on February 16, 2024, 04:13:35 AM
So, what is wrong with changing an environment full of dangerous, and hostile animals and plants? We do this all the time, every day, and everywhere. Construction companies, Extermination companies, chemical companies, and whole gardening and landscape industries are largely built upon such a foundation.

As for dangerous, alien races? Yeah, they need to be crushed. No one feels all weepy and bent out of shape when you step on and crush a cockroach.

I haven't read enough of Tekumel to have an opinion on neonazi themes in it. (I own Swords & Glory, but I've only ever played in two one-shots that someone else ran.) I'm reading Serpent's Walk now, though.

Any student of history knows that things like the Trail of Tears, reservations, and camps happened as part of colonization. So having aliens forced onto reservations as part of colonization isn't a signal of neonazi anything. It's a reference to real-world history. But the question is, is there a distinctly neonazi take on colonization that is different from how others would write about it? To illustrate, one of the big points of Holocaust denial is denying the gas chambers. Neonazis like to say that many Jewish people died in the camps, but what happened to Jewish people in Germany isn't any different than what happened to Native American people, or what happened in Belgian Congo, or any other clashes of culture.

Neonazi science fantasy colonization would likely be different than Star Wars and Star Trek, where aliens and humans coexist and are often buddies with each other.

Has anyone read Barker's Tekumel novels, like Man of Gold? I think that might signal a little more clearly his views on Tekumel colonization, and it would be interesting to compare to Serpent's Walk.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 16, 2024, 02:12:46 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2024, 02:50:26 PM
Let's put it this way: anyone could read Vikernes' book and without knowing anything at all about the author would think "this RPG seems to be making some kind of message about real world race". Whereas for 45 years, thousands and thousands of people read Tekumel and NOT ONE PERSON thought that until the secret life of Barker was revealed.

That's just not true. I was pretty new to the original source material before all that stuff came out, but I did read it, and I definitely found the notion of the "inimicals" troubling. I just chalked it up to unconscious aping of colonist tropes, or maybe a somewhat deliberate invocation. When the neo-Nazi came out, it just made the context more clear and explicit, whereas the motivations or prejudices weren't crystal clear before. "And in this setting, genocide is completely justified," just raises a few hairs on the necks.

And had Barker donated to Jewish orphanages, this guy would have been "neato, what an creative guy."

Hindsight/confirmation bias is a hell of a drug folks.

Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2024, 01:48:10 PM
I'm reading Serpent's Walk now, though.

Nazis walk among us!! 

Seriously, why give them what they want? Some things are better ignored. I feel like reading Far Left or Far Right stuff, a little piece of my soul dies.

Should Raymond E. Feist and all of his millions of fans now be castigated as Neo-Nazi sympathizers since Feist clearly wholesale ripped off Tekumel for his Riftwar books? I mean... those brown-skinned Aztec/Japanese samurai were clearly influenced by Nazi ideology as they broke through interdimensional barriers to exterminate a world full of natives for their resources.

... of course maybe Ray Feist was showing forethought in that those natives were European analogs and he was trying to wipe out Whitey... I mean it's possible right? /sarcasm off.

So 40-years and nearly 30-novels later, and no one claimed Ray Feist's clear interpretation of Tekumel is Nazi propaganda for obvious reasons. pawsplay, you're an idiot.


Edit: and for all the "Bury My Heart and Wounded Knee" fans, I highly recommend "Empire of the Summer Moon" as a counterpoint. I can't stand the noble savage myth that everyone pretends all Native Americans are the same and as if "they" didn't commit atrocities as a matter of course... yes horrible shit was done on both sides, and pretending the conflict was solely to blame on the more organized and powerful Europeans is *stupid* argument, when in reality it was two cultures colliding inevitably towards one another with obvious detrimental results.