Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 06:08:43 AMand yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

That is the big one there. He did it despite knowing damn well that if found out it was not going to end well. If he was doing it to mess with them then its in bad taste at the very least. But Ive seen it before so who knows. But at the end of the day he was up to something and all we have are his scant comments. All of which lean to it not being a joke.

Theres also the weird way he goes at it. Really secretive. And yet out in the open too. Part of me feels like this validates my observation before about neo-nazis not being able to keep a lid on their activities.

Years ago I found that out the hard way. Was talking with a video game developer and I disagreed with something he said and out of the blue he starts screaming "You Jew! You filthy Jew!" and that was the last I had to do with them or their game. A game they never delivered. Funny how that is.

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2024, 06:49:40 AM
As I already said multiple times, immaterial anyway. Dude is dead and Tekumel doesn't have anything to do with Nazism, so as you already stated we should just see who is publishing it and use that as a metric for support (i.e. spending money).

Depends on who gets ahold of it. Look what happened to the fake Star Frontiers.

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 05:20:32 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 06:08:43 AMand yet he kept right on doing it at that enormous risk. No one is doing that for shits and giggles.

That is the big one there. He did it despite knowing damn well that if found out it was not going to end well. If he was doing it to mess with them then its in bad taste at the very least. But Ive seen it before so who knows. But at the end of the day he was up to something and all we have are his scant comments. All of which lean to it not being a joke.

Theres also the weird way he goes at it. Really secretive. And yet out in the open too. Part of me feels like this validates my observation before about neo-nazis not being able to keep a lid on their activities.

Years ago I found that out the hard way. Was talking with a video game developer and I disagreed with something he said and out of the blue he starts screaming "You Jew! You filthy Jew!" and that was the last I had to do with them or their game. A game they never delivered. Funny how that is.

I had a friend, a progressive alternative rock guy. Then a couple of years later, he was talking about how rap wasn't music and there was nothing wrong with ethno-socialism. So then I got to thinking about how years earlier we had gotten into an argument because he said GURPS was about "point-jewing" and I objected to the term, and he said I was being stupid, and no one said stuff like that seriously. So that's when I realized he  must have been basically, you know, that all along. And there's that movie This is England. That's really how it is. People present themselves a certain way: they're a hippie, they're a Mormon, they're an Eagle Scout, they're a best-selling children's author, whatever. And then you scratch the paint and you find out something else about them, and it's surprising and depressing. I don't know.

With Barker, he joined the editorial board of the Journal of Historical Review after basically retiring from mainstream academia. To me that really just says it all. When he didn't have to stop pretending any more, that's who he was. He had a career as an intellectual, and when he had a choice, he decided to get into the Holocaust denial business. He had success with Tekumel, and then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that. It seems pretty straightforward to me, that was his deal, that was who he was, if you asked him in his heart of hearts, that's what he believed. He was an authoritarian, intellectually dishonest racist, who thought it was very important that we not shed unnecessary tears for Jews.

It's not just objectionable matter here or there. If you look at the timeline, there is a story. Beginning, middle, end.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:01:48 PMand then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that.

Except the book is not as pro-Nazi. In fact the characters are weirdly accepting. By the end of the book its more socialist or neo-communist than straight up Nazi spiel.

So it is not as clear whats going on with Barkers actions as it should be. He's doing X and Y for sure. But Y doesnt ring quite as true.

But you still have the problem he did it. And even if it was some fucked up lark, it is still well past fucked up. I dont care if he planned this as some sort of big journalistic expose "I spent 5 years as a Nazi!" book. It just comes across as in bad taste. And theres no indicators other than the bits in Serpent Walk to even suggest that, far as I have come across.

But none of that show in Tekumel. Thank god.

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 06:30:49 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:01:48 PMand then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that.

Except the book is not as pro-Nazi.

Oh, fuck off.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:40:10 PM
Oh, fuck off.

What an excellent refutation and compelling argument. You have convinced me never to read another Tekumel book ever again.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 09:55:11 PM
Ahmedinajad is a Muslim anti-semite, writing in Muslim circles. Your argument is that maybe M.A.R. Barker, being a Muslim convert, was an anti-semite more for religious rather than neo-nazi ideas. The main flaw I see with that as an historian is that as far as I know, no evidence has been uncovered of his supporting MUSLIM Anti-semitic organizations or contributing in any way to that kind of activity, but he clearly did involve himself, for many many years, in Neo-Nazi organizations.

I did already say that I agree that there's no reason why, now that money from it won't go to Barker, that Tekumel can't continue to be printed. I never saw anything political about it, which is why this revelation about Barkers abominable secret activities were such a shock when they came to light.

Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute. He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job. He's dead and can't defend himself either way. Tekumel is certainly not Nazi-oriented whatsoever and his publishers aren't Nazis, either, so I'm gonna just treat him like HPL and say he might have been a horrible person but Tekumel is a good product and no Nazis are profiting so this is merely an exercise in character assassination to sully the TEKUMEL PROPERTY and make anyone who likes Tekumel a fucking Nazi by some ludicrous associative property." I just brought up Ahmedinajad as a real-world example to dispute the notion that Holocaust denial is a definitive Nazi-only view.

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2024, 06:49:49 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 07, 2024, 09:55:11 PM
Ahmedinajad is a Muslim anti-semite, writing in Muslim circles. Your argument is that maybe M.A.R. Barker, being a Muslim convert, was an anti-semite more for religious rather than neo-nazi ideas. The main flaw I see with that as an historian is that as far as I know, no evidence has been uncovered of his supporting MUSLIM Anti-semitic organizations or contributing in any way to that kind of activity, but he clearly did involve himself, for many many years, in Neo-Nazi organizations.

I did already say that I agree that there's no reason why, now that money from it won't go to Barker, that Tekumel can't continue to be printed. I never saw anything political about it, which is why this revelation about Barkers abominable secret activities were such a shock when they came to light.

Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute. He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job. He's dead and can't defend himself either way. Tekumel is certainly not Nazi-oriented whatsoever and his publishers aren't Nazis, either, so I'm gonna just treat him like HPL and say he might have been a horrible person but Tekumel is a good product and no Nazis are profiting so this is merely an exercise in character assassination to sully the TEKUMEL PROPERTY and make anyone who likes Tekumel a fucking Nazi by some ludicrous associative property." I just brought up Ahmedinajad as a real-world example to dispute the notion that Holocaust denial is a definitive Nazi-only view.

Greetings!

Excellent analysis, Brad! That is exactly my view of this MAR Barker, and Tekumel.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

When this news broke 2 years ago I went and found a pdf of MAR Barker's novel Serpent's Walk online.

And I read it. Cover to cover.

It is a pro-Nazi screed written as revenge porn for the white nationalist pseudointellectuals of the English world: the Jews won the Second World War, the SS went underground and learned from the Jews. They invested for a century, built up their networks, built up their economic clout, and began controlling the media. Just like the Jews do now, you see.

There's a love interest. There are some "good Jews" that eventually get what's coming to them. There is some worldbuilding and discussion of how things under white rule will be better, once the Jews are finally defeated.

There is nothing redeeming or unambiguous about Serpent's Walk and its author's views. The fact that an esteemed academic like MAR Barker sat on the board of a notorious faux-historical academic (non-peer reviewed!) journal devoted to denying the Holocaust is a testament to just how stupid Jew-hate makes people. Even people who are otherwise smart.

As for the people who publish Tekumel: it seems about as "problematic" as all the other fantasy worlds out there already. Interpret my air quotes as you will.  The publishers aren't Nazis, and no money is going towards Holocaust denial or Nazi causes. I don't know what the big deal is.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:40:10 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 10, 2024, 06:30:49 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 10, 2024, 06:01:48 PMand then he decided he never really got around to writing that pro-Nazi heroic SS novel he always wanted to write, so he did that.

Except the book is not as pro-Nazi.

Oh, fuck off.

That you do not like it does not change the fact that Serpent Walk is a bit of a failure at being pro-Nazi. I read through the damn thing. Its still a bunch of Nazis trying to bring world peace. "Live and let live." These two things should not go together.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on February 10, 2024, 10:35:10 PM
When this news broke 2 years ago I went and found a pdf of MAR Barker's novel Serpent's Walk online.

And I read it. Cover to cover.

Apparently without actually reading it if you came to those conclusions.

And lets be clear.

I read it EXPECTING to come away with the same conclusions as you.

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2024, 06:49:49 PM
Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute.

It's not.

Quote
He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job.

Check your dates. He joined the editorial board after the end of his conventional academic career. He knew it would be career ending, so he waited until he was more or less retired, and then on the record as a Holocaust denying neo-Nazi. Interpret his motivations as you will.

One big difference between Barker and Lovecraft is that I don't play in Lovecraft's world. He had all this alien and mysticism stuff, and then there was New England. If I play Call of Cthulhu, I'm not adopting his experience of living in Rhode Island, I don't accept his racism as founded in fact, I'm not creating fan fiction for Racist New England With Aliens In It. I'm just adopting the supernatural elements, and depending on what flavor I'm playing, I may be playing in the same decade and in the same geographic region.

If you run Tekumel out of the book, and I don't see any way it's likely to be run, you are playing in an imaginary world that exists only in Barker's brain. Maybe it's not a bad idea to get caught up on your intellectual inoculations before you go full Tekumel. There is a hardcore Tekumel fandom out there, they've had conventions and stuff, they do cosplay and LARP, and if they aren't reeling from all this stuff, there's something wrong with them.

With Lovecraft, it's like, "foreigners are scary!" and I'm like, eh, not so much, Howard. With Barker, you are entering a world where the natives are hostile, and will only ever be hostile, and peace with the indigenous people is impossible. They have to be stamped out for humans to survive. Not the same thing. And someone is about to say, "Oh, well, the aliens in Tekumel are so alien, of course!" but they were were created in the mind of a real person, and that person was Barker, who felt this was the best way to express his vision for his fantasy world.

It's not even the same, and that's assuming you find vanilla Lovecraft acceptable in the first place, which is not something I would automatically assume. Lovecraft's work invites commentary, a response. Barker's work can only be changed.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 11, 2024, 12:18:47 AMLovecraft's work invites commentary, a response. Barker's work can only be changed.

You're not fit to comment on Lovecraft's bowel movements, never mind the man's actual work. It's kind of Lovecraftian though, the microbe trying to understand something too large for its understanding.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 11, 2024, 12:18:47 AM

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2024, 06:49:49 PM
Well my argument is more like, "He was a dude entrenched in Indian and Islamic cultures and turns out aligned with Neo-Nazi idealism to some degree that is still in dispute.

It's not.

Quote
He was in academia and contributed to a Neo-Nazi journal in some meaningful way. He hid all that stuff for some reason, probably so he wouldn't lose his job.

Check your dates. He joined the editorial board after the end of his conventional academic career. He knew it would be career ending, so he waited until he was more or less retired, and then on the record as a Holocaust denying neo-Nazi. Interpret his motivations as you will.

One big difference between Barker and Lovecraft is that I don't play in Lovecraft's world. He had all this alien and mysticism stuff, and then there was New England. If I play Call of Cthulhu, I'm not adopting his experience of living in Rhode Island, I don't accept his racism as founded in fact, I'm not creating fan fiction for Racist New England With Aliens In It. I'm just adopting the supernatural elements, and depending on what flavor I'm playing, I may be playing in the same decade and in the same geographic region.

If you run Tekumel out of the book, and I don't see any way it's likely to be run, you are playing in an imaginary world that exists only in Barker's brain. Maybe it's not a bad idea to get caught up on your intellectual inoculations before you go full Tekumel. There is a hardcore Tekumel fandom out there, they've had conventions and stuff, they do cosplay and LARP, and if they aren't reeling from all this stuff, there's something wrong with them.

With Lovecraft, it's like, "foreigners are scary!" and I'm like, eh, not so much, Howard. With Barker, you are entering a world where the natives are hostile, and will only ever be hostile, and peace with the indigenous people is impossible. They have to be stamped out for humans to survive. Not the same thing. And someone is about to say, "Oh, well, the aliens in Tekumel are so alien, of course!" but they were were created in the mind of a real person, and that person was Barker, who felt this was the best way to express his vision for his fantasy world.

It's not even the same, and that's assuming you find vanilla Lovecraft acceptable in the first place, which is not something I would automatically assume. Lovecraft's work invites commentary, a response. Barker's work can only be changed.

That's a lot of words to basically say you're a fucking idiot.

Quote from: Brad on February 11, 2024, 03:42:43 PM
That's a lot of words to basically say you're a fucking idiot.

Better an idiot than a batboy for the SS. You keep acting like Barker's academic legacy is defensible. Why would you even argue that, if you didn't sense that Tekumel was a rotten apple? You're trying to claim Barker wasn't a neo-Nazi, probably because you want to claim it's therefore impossible Tekumel was tainted by his neo-Nazism.