Quote from: jhkim on April 13, 2023, 03:07:13 PMLater TSR and Palladium were known for suing third-party producers. As far as I know, most other companies were happy to have third-party producers.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Palladium. They were overly litigious as well. So three companies from that era that I've suing people for questionable stuff: TSR, White Wolf and Palladium.

White Wolf IIRC would sue anyone, even outside of TTRPGs, who made anything even remotely resembling Vampire: The Masquerade (stuff dealing with vampire societies and such).

I think we're drifting off the topic, so I'll be brief. Look at it from a 1980s POV. TSR acted aggressively, and in some individual cases probably overreacted. Understandable if you invented a genre of games, watched tons of competitors launch product, and (eventually) developed financial problems. But asserting your ownership of an IP was a given. Anyway, would a TSR of today allow for the OSR? I'd say so, if there was enough of that going on in the industry. But again, I don't know who came up with the idea at WOTC or approved it. Maybe that same person would be at TSR. Who can say? I thought this thread was going to talk about product lines and so on.

One thing I think would change, OGL aside, is that 3e, and especially 4e and 5e might be much closer to 2e. I still use some 2e monsters for my B/X games; most TSR stuff is vaguely compatible. Same happens for CoC (and Runequest, Pendragon, etc.), Savage Worlds, and even GURPS 4e is closer to 3e than D&D 4e is to 3e.

D&D is the only RPG that changed so radically over editions (Kult is the only other one that comes to mind; Shadowrun might be another example but I've stopped playing a while ago).

I'm not saying that this is good or bad, there I things I enjoy about modern editions - especially the OGL, of course.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 13, 2023, 03:59:18 PM
One thing I think would change, OGL aside, is that 3e, and especially 4e and 5e might be much closer to 2e. I still use some 2e monsters for my B/X games; most TSR stuff is vaguely compatible. Same happens for CoC (and Runequest, Pendragon, etc.), Savage Worlds, and even GURPS 4e is closer to 3e than D&D 4e is to 3e.

D&D is the only RPG that changed so radically over editions (Kult is the only other one that comes to mind; Shadowrun might be another example but I've stopped playing a while ago).

I'd point out that most games simply haven't been around as long as D&D has. Call of Cthulhu is the rare exception. Most RPGs have an effective lifespan of much shorter active development, after which they become a legacy system which is just getting reprints. I'd also disagree about some of these.

• RuneQuest 2E to 3E was a pretty huge change, by making it generic instead of Glorantha specific, with a lot of mechanical differences as well.
• Champions 3E to HERO System 4E was similarly a big change from superheroes to a generic system. It replaced a lot of the skill system.
• While it might be less radical than D&D 4E, GURPS 3E to 4E is still a very big change, especially the changes to core attributes.
• Paranoia has completely replaced its core system multiple times. Gamma World, Blue Rose, and others have also changed their core system.

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 03:25:06 PM
I think we're drifting off the topic, so I'll be brief. Look at it from a 1980s POV. TSR acted aggressively, and in some individual cases probably overreacted. Understandable if you invented a genre of games, watched tons of competitors launch product, and (eventually) developed financial problems. But asserting your ownership of an IP was a given. Anyway, would a TSR of today allow for the OSR? I'd say so, if there was enough of that going on in the industry. But again, I don't know who came up with the idea at WOTC or approved it. Maybe that same person would be at TSR. Who can say? I thought this thread was going to talk about product lines and so on.

We're not talking about TSR suing 3rd party publishers over stuff that they were trying to sell in stores, we're talking about literally suing people who put things on the internet like "The Netbook of Spells," which was nothing more than a compilation of houserules. Just spells and stuff for D&D-like games. Hence, if THAT TSR existed still, the OSR would NOT exist in any way, shape, or form. So, we are talking about product lines, of sorts. Almost a minuscule amount of 3rd party support, if any. Contrast that with the heyday of d20...the sheer glut of crap was out of control.

EDIT: Lemme add this...when I say TSR went after stuff we'd consider ridiculous, I mean it. They would send C&D letters to people running rudimentary websites with a variant Paladin class. Crap like that. It was pretty fucking insane, so stuff that was put on the internet was sort of "underground". I remember having to dig for a long time to find those netbooks...today, we'd think that was ludicrous.

Quote from: Festus on April 12, 2023, 03:49:15 PMAnybody making a clone or something "too close" to D&D would get sued. He was extremely jealous and protective of his IP. You wouldn't be able to play D&D unless you were playing *his* D&D. And because he loved the money, that would mean whatever D&D "official" version TSR was currently selling. Anything else you'd have to buy used on the secondary market, and he'd make that as hard to get as he could.

The recurring lie.

Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2023, 05:52:09 PM
EDIT: Lemme add this...when I say TSR went after stuff we'd consider ridiculous, I mean it. They would send C&D letters to people running rudimentary websites with a variant Paladin class. Crap like that. It was pretty fucking insane, so stuff that was put on the internet was sort of "underground". I remember having to dig for a long time to find those netbooks...today, we'd think that was ludicrous.

Here's some blog posts detailing events:

https://dmdavid.com/tag/1994-tsr-declares-war-on-the-internets-dd-fans/

Quote from: Jam The MF on April 13, 2023, 12:31:47 AM
You need to go back to the full product offering, for 1st Edition AD&D; and brainstorm what Gary would have done, or what he would have allowed trusted writers to do with that.  Forget about everything that came after his departure from TSR.  None of what followed counts, for this discussion.  1E AD&D was Gary's big splash.  Although, I'm curious what he would have done with B/X D&D?

Man I don't wanna pull a Troy and try to sound all authoritative...so let me say that this is pure speculation but based on what I talked with Gary about was that he was trying hard to market D&D.  Remember, he had a movie in the works, he had the cartoon going on.  Gary wanted to market D&D hard.  As to Basic D&D?  He thought it was grand - it was double-dipping, it made the company more profit and was therefore good.  His future revisions to AD&D which would have seen the elimination of the assassin (yes - turned into an NPC only class), the creation of the Jester and Hunter as well as the Mountebank, and probably folded the monsters into the Dungeon Masters Guide, so there'd just be two books - DMG and PHB.

People for whatever reason don't like to admit it but Gary was a very good guide for TSR when he did have some modicum of control.  He came back from California to a company in financial ruins and turned it 180' around.  His problem was he trusted the wrong people (the Blumes, then Lorraine).  Had he not made those two critical errors, TSR would have done fine.

No there likely wouldn't have been an OGL, but (A)D&D would still have been tall in the saddle.

As to TSR cucking to the Christian Right, again, not Gary's decision.  Totally on Lorraine, Brian, & Kevin.  Gary's attitude was "They have to buy the books if they want to burn them." (although it did bother him that people saw D&D as evil)

A lot of people think AD&D would have become a "softer" game because of what we got in Unearthed Arcana but my own personal opinion is that UA was a cash-patch to try and stop the hemorrhaging of money (which it did) but if Gary had had more time to craft and develop we likely wouldn't have gotten much of the sillyness that book brought to the table.

If if if...

Quote from: Omega on April 13, 2023, 07:37:05 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 12, 2023, 03:49:15 PMAnybody making a clone or something "too close" to D&D would get sued. He was extremely jealous and protective of his IP. You wouldn't be able to play D&D unless you were playing *his* D&D. And because he loved the money, that would mean whatever D&D "official" version TSR was currently selling. Anything else you'd have to buy used on the secondary market, and he'd make that as hard to get as he could.

The recurring lie.

I was going to address this but you did much more succinctly, thank you.

Quote from: jhkim on April 13, 2023, 04:39:31 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 13, 2023, 03:59:18 PM
One thing I think would change, OGL aside, is that 3e, and especially 4e and 5e might be much closer to 2e. I still use some 2e monsters for my B/X games; most TSR stuff is vaguely compatible. Same happens for CoC (and Runequest, Pendragon, etc.), Savage Worlds, and even GURPS 4e is closer to 3e than D&D 4e is to 3e.

D&D is the only RPG that changed so radically over editions (Kult is the only other one that comes to mind; Shadowrun might be another example but I've stopped playing a while ago).

I'd point out that most games simply haven't been around as long as D&D has. Call of Cthulhu is the rare exception. Most RPGs have an effective lifespan of much shorter active development, after which they become a legacy system which is just getting reprints. I'd also disagree about some of these.

• RuneQuest 2E to 3E was a pretty huge change, by making it generic instead of Glorantha specific, with a lot of mechanical differences as well.
• Champions 3E to HERO System 4E was similarly a big change from superheroes to a generic system. It replaced a lot of the skill system.
• While it might be less radical than D&D 4E, GURPS 3E to 4E is still a very big change, especially the changes to core attributes.
• Paranoia has completely replaced its core system multiple times. Gamma World, Blue Rose, and others have also changed their core system.

Fair enough, especially about Gamma World, Blue Rose and Paranoia.... although you could say these are more "setting" than "system".

But I still maintain that GURPS, probably Runequest, and maybe Talislanta haven't had radical change like 3e to 4e, and Champion/Hero apparently are called different names (not "editions" of the same game - although you mention 3e to 4e? I wouldn't know).

Quote from: jhkim on April 12, 2023, 04:17:12 PM
Presumably if Gygax was hired in the 1990s to take over D&D again, the game would look more like his works of the 1990s - namely Dangerous Journeys (1992) and Lejendary Adventure (1999).

D&D today under TSR and Gary would be terrible.

1st edition was already terrible*. UA made it even worse. 2nd edition was way too safe and TSR waffled by making it a collection of optional rules, rather than a cohesively designed system.

Interestingly, while B/X and BECMI have their problems, they are far better designed games than 1e/2e because for whatever reason the designers were allowed to do their job.

This often happens with innovators, they make the initial breakthrough, but others "get" it better.


* yeah, like you I still love it, but rereading it objectively the books are a mess.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 14, 2023, 09:08:17 AM

Quote from: jhkim on April 13, 2023, 04:39:31 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 13, 2023, 03:59:18 PM
One thing I think would change, OGL aside, is that 3e, and especially 4e and 5e might be much closer to 2e. I still use some 2e monsters for my B/X games; most TSR stuff is vaguely compatible. Same happens for CoC (and Runequest, Pendragon, etc.), Savage Worlds, and even GURPS 4e is closer to 3e than D&D 4e is to 3e.

D&D is the only RPG that changed so radically over editions (Kult is the only other one that comes to mind; Shadowrun might be another example but I've stopped playing a while ago).

I'd point out that most games simply haven't been around as long as D&D has. Call of Cthulhu is the rare exception. Most RPGs have an effective lifespan of much shorter active development, after which they become a legacy system which is just getting reprints. I'd also disagree about some of these.

• RuneQuest 2E to 3E was a pretty huge change, by making it generic instead of Glorantha specific, with a lot of mechanical differences as well.
• Champions 3E to HERO System 4E was similarly a big change from superheroes to a generic system. It replaced a lot of the skill system.
• While it might be less radical than D&D 4E, GURPS 3E to 4E is still a very big change, especially the changes to core attributes.
• Paranoia has completely replaced its core system multiple times. Gamma World, Blue Rose, and others have also changed their core system.

Fair enough, especially about Gamma World, Blue Rose and Paranoia.... although you could say these are more "setting" than "system".

But I still maintain that GURPS, probably Runequest, and maybe Talislanta haven't had radical change like 3e to 4e, and Champion/Hero apparently are called different names (not "editions" of the same game - although you mention 3e to 4e? I wouldn't know).

The universal HERO System released in 1989 is still identified as "4th edition". They released it as both a "Hero System" universal rulebook and a longer all-in-one "Champions" book that has identical rules plus additional sections for superhero genre and background.

I'm not entirely disagreeing. Yes, the change from D&D 3.5E to 4E was a big change, bigger than GURPS or RQ -- but it wasn't unprecedented. Besides the other examples, I think the change from OD&D to either the Basic Set or AD&D was at least as big a change. One could call them different games, but they were the replacement under the same brand from the same company.

My other point is that most RPG editions happen quickly, because most systems have a much shorter time of growth, after which they become legacy systems with not much active support. Champions had four editions over eight years (1981 to 1989). RuneQuest had three editions over six years (1978 to 1984). By the time D&D 4E came out, the game had been around for 35 years.

Fair points!

My dream scenario is like the current history except Gary stops worrying about game mechanics and continues to churn out high quality modules for Wizards or as part of his own company.

Quote from: jhkim on April 15, 2023, 12:57:27 PM
By the time D&D 4E came out, the game had been around for 35 years.

They may have called it 4e, but there were way more than 3 iterations of D&D prior to it.