Where would Dungeons and Dragons be today if TSR (the original) still existed?

Baron · April 13, 2023, 12:38:13 AM

We would've seen Castle Greyhawk and the dungeons beneath. Got the actual Gygax version of City of Greyhawk. Oriental Adventures would've remained set on Greyhawk, not the Realms. Tournaments would've continued as a convention thing.

I don't know if there would've been a need for Basic as a separate thing once Arneson was all settled. Maybe. Basic as a rules-lite game, compared to Advanced.

I would've liked to see more board games and war games. Since that was what the old guard played, it could've been a thing. Connecting it to D&D and Greyhawk, as GDW's board games were often tied in to Traveller, could've helped make them popular.

Baron · April 13, 2023, 02:14:49 AM

Oh, likely we would've seen a slew of Rob Kuntz' adventures, since he was Gygax' DM and co-DM.

GhostNinja · April 13, 2023, 09:20:11 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 12, 2023, 05:22:03 PM
Mmm, in 2009 Hasbro/WOTC pulled access to all legitimate PDFs. They didn't backpedal on that until 2013. Anyone can get proprietary about their intellectual property. Chaosium was known for going after online writers too, they still do today. And don't get me started about the Tekumel Foundation. Dave Morris, who'd released the Tirikelu rules set years back for free online, updated his downloads with a re-formatted version for printing. He was immediately threatened and had to pull it. So would TSR have calmed down? Hard to say. The online world grew and attitudes changed, who's to say how TSR might've evolved?

Did Davie Morris post the rules verbatim or were they alternate rules? I am curious.

I hate Over litigious companies. The fans are putting out things to enhance their game, let them as long as they aren't giving the entire game away for free.

GhostNinja · April 13, 2023, 09:20:57 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 06:50:54 PM
The sweet spot timeline is one where Gygax is retained as Creative Lead, with full control over game decisions; while someone who is financially savvy but actually cares about the hobby (this is essential to avoid the post-70's short term profit version of corporate Capitalism) steering the ship.

See this would have been perfect. They would also have to not sue anyone who puts out something that enhances the game. Then that would be the perfect TSR.

LordBP · April 13, 2023, 09:54:14 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 12:38:13 AM
We would've seen Castle Greyhawk and the dungeons beneath. Got the actual Gygax version of City of Greyhawk. Oriental Adventures would've remained set on Greyhawk, not the Realms. Tournaments would've continued as a convention thing.

I don't know if there would've been a need for Basic as a separate thing once Arneson was all settled. Maybe. Basic as a rules-lite game, compared to Advanced.

I would've liked to see more board games and war games. Since that was what the old guard played, it could've been a thing. Connecting it to D&D and Greyhawk, as GDW's board games were often tied in to Traveller, could've helped make them popular.

If you read the Gord the Rogue books, Gygax fleshed out the City of Greyhawk quite a bit in them.

Baron · April 13, 2023, 11:34:58 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 13, 2023, 09:20:11 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 12, 2023, 05:22:03 PM
Mmm, in 2009 Hasbro/WOTC pulled access to all legitimate PDFs. They didn't backpedal on that until 2013. Anyone can get proprietary about their intellectual property. Chaosium was known for going after online writers too, they still do today. And don't get me started about the Tekumel Foundation. Dave Morris, who'd released the Tirikelu rules set years back for free online, updated his downloads with a re-formatted version for printing. He was immediately threatened and had to pull it. So would TSR have calmed down? Hard to say. The online world grew and attitudes changed, who's to say how TSR might've evolved?

Did Davie Morris post the rules verbatim or were they alternate rules? I am curious.

I hate Over litigious companies. The fans are putting out things to enhance their game, let them as long as they aren't giving the entire game away for free.

Dave is the author of Tirikelu. He's a fan of Tekumel. Tirikelu is a free rules set for Tekumel that he wrote many years ago. The updated file was just a reformat.

GhostNinja · April 13, 2023, 12:34:25 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 11:34:58 AM
Dave is the author of Tirikelu. He's a fan of Tekumel. Tirikelu is a free rules set for Tekumel that he wrote many years ago. The updated file was just a reformat.

Ok, I have heard of Tekumel but I have never looked at it or tirikelu so I had no idea.

Brad · April 13, 2023, 01:55:09 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 12, 2023, 05:22:03 PM
Mmm, in 2009 Hasbro/WOTC pulled access to all legitimate PDFs. They didn't backpedal on that until 2013. Anyone can get proprietary about their intellectual property. Chaosium was known for going after online writers too, they still do today. And don't get me started about the Tekumel Foundation. Dave Morris, who'd released the Tirikelu rules set years back for free online, updated his downloads with a re-formatted version for printing. He was immediately threatened and had to pull it. So would TSR have calmed down? Hard to say. The online world grew and attitudes changed, who's to say how TSR might've evolved?

Pulling PDFs is not the same as WotC threatening people with blogs. It'd be like if they told Pundit to stop posting about how to do world development in D&D or something. Although, the PDF pulling was...problematic. Exposed the whole DRM/electronic stuff as nothing more than pure trash.

RE: Tirkelu, you can still get the PDF, so it doesn't look like he had to pull it, just couldn't make a print copy available. That's not even close to proto-WWW TSR-level shenanigans.

Festus · April 13, 2023, 02:22:49 PM

Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2023, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: Baron on April 12, 2023, 05:22:03 PM
Mmm, in 2009 Hasbro/WOTC pulled access to all legitimate PDFs. They didn't backpedal on that until 2013. Anyone can get proprietary about their intellectual property. Chaosium was known for going after online writers too, they still do today. And don't get me started about the Tekumel Foundation. Dave Morris, who'd released the Tirikelu rules set years back for free online, updated his downloads with a re-formatted version for printing. He was immediately threatened and had to pull it. So would TSR have calmed down? Hard to say. The online world grew and attitudes changed, who's to say how TSR might've evolved?

Pulling PDFs is not the same as WotC threatening people with blogs. It'd be like if they told Pundit to stop posting about how to do world development in D&D or something. Although, the PDF pulling was...problematic. Exposed the whole DRM/electronic stuff as nothing more than pure trash.

RE: Tirkelu, you can still get the PDF, so it doesn't look like he had to pull it, just couldn't make a print copy available. That's not even close to proto-WWW TSR-level shenanigans.

Yep. Didn't matter if it was Gygax-Blume TSR or Williams TSR - they were no friend to anyone but TSR, and an active enemy of anything D&D related that wasn't TSR. When it comes to 3PP's and fan created D&D content, I think the RPG world is much better off without TSR.

I really comes down to an open source philosophy vs. a strict IP enforcement philosophy. If you favor the former, then TSR's demise was a good thing. If you favor the latter, only then does "what would Gygax have done with D&D?" become a relevant question.

Baron · April 13, 2023, 02:29:47 PM

I'd be happy to stand corrected if someone has examples, but to my knowledge there were no companies that were "open source" during TSR's lifespan. So how can you fault a company for not doing something that no one else was doing?

VisionStorm · April 13, 2023, 02:49:32 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 02:29:47 PM
I'd be happy to stand corrected if someone has examples, but to my knowledge there were no companies that were "open source" during TSR's lifespan. So how can you fault a company for not doing something that no one else was doing?

There's not being open source, and then there's being litigious to the point of suing people for absurd crap absolutely NO ONE would consider IP infringement. And TSR falls into the second camp. IIRC, TSR sued Gary Gygax himself over Dangerous Journeys, which looks absolutely NOTHING like D&D. Though, I did hear similarly ridiculous stuff about White Wolf as well, but don't recall any other TTRPG companies that were as litigious from that era.

Festus · April 13, 2023, 02:51:33 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 02:29:47 PM
I'd be happy to stand corrected if someone has examples, but to my knowledge there were no companies that were "open source" during TSR's lifespan. So how can you fault a company for not doing something that no one else was doing?

There's not having an open license, and then there's being extremely litigious and aggressive when protecting your IP.

No one was open source at the time, but also no one was anywhere close to being as litigious and bullying as TSR.

The OP's question is where would D&D be if TSR still existed. So the comparison is between TSR and WotC after it acquired D&D. The latter went open source, which literally changed the RPG hobby landscape forever.

jhkim · April 13, 2023, 03:07:13 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 02:29:47 PM
I'd be happy to stand corrected if someone has examples, but to my knowledge there were no companies that were "open source" during TSR's lifespan. So how can you fault a company for not doing something that no one else was doing?

There wasn't an open-source license, but there were a number of third-party producers. How things worked at that time was that some companies would have cordial relations with third-party producers, while other companies would sue them.

Later TSR and Palladium were known for suing third-party producers. As far as I know, most other companies were happy to have third-party producers.

Some notable third-party producers/products were Judges Guild modules (1976-1982), Chaosium's Thieves World (1981), Mayfair Games' Role Aids (1982-1995), and Wizards of the Coasts' Primal Order/Capsystem (1992-1995).

Baron · April 13, 2023, 03:13:48 PM

Sorry, but this strikes me as disingenuous. If someone wanted to publish for an IP they acquired a license or approval. Without that, the IP owner needed to assert their rights or lose ownership.

Those approvals could be rescinded or expire. JG's license was not renewed. Mayfair got sued. Chaosium got special permission from the owners of each game system published in Thieves World.

jhkim · April 13, 2023, 03:17:27 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 03:13:48 PM
Sorry, but this strikes me as disingenuous. If someone wanted to publish for an IP they acquired a license or approval. Without that, the IP owner needed to assert their rights or lose ownership.

Those approvals could be rescinded or expire. JG's license was not renewed. Mayfair got sued. Chaosium got special permission from the owners of each game system published in Thieves World.

Third party publishing is not inherently a violation of either copyright or trademark. It's a courtesy to try work out an arrangement, but it's not legally required. In many fields, it's the norm. I have some case history here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/copyright/supplements.html