Ok, there's a bunch of products with very similar names and overlapping ... mess.
Can someone point me where to (legitimately) get useful early (or retroclone) D&D products?
I'm still interested in putting together a 5e microlite something or other, but it'd help to have some perspective on other early games.
http://www.dndclassics.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic)
From there you can fins all else. Prices arent bad usually, but not allways.
In an interest toward 'illustrative/good ideas,' any other editions you'd suggest?
Quote from: Will;802744Ok, there's a bunch of products with very similar names and overlapping ... mess.
Can someone point me where to (legitimately) get useful early (or retroclone) D&D products?
I'm still interested in putting together a 5e microlite something or other, but it'd help to have some perspective on other early games.
What do you have already?
Basic Fantasy (//www.basicfantasy.org) is a great clone of B/X D&D, with a few modern tweaks (ascending AC, etc.). It's also free in PDF, and sold at cost on Amazon.
And then there's also OSRIC (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/), for a similarly "free in PDF, cheap in hardcopy" take on AD&D 1e.
You can also buy the Rules Compendium from dndclassics.com which is the BECMI version of Basic (minus Immortals).
Quote from: misterguignol;802754What do you have already?
5e and Pathfinder
Quote from: Will;8027615e and Pathfinder
In that case I'd recommend getting the B/X pdfs from drivethrurpg or just downloading the free Labyrinth Lord pdf. (LL is a clone of B/X and it's probably 97% the same as B/X.)
You also might want to take a look at 1st edition AD&D, since it was a design that inspired a lot of stuff over the years. For a free clone, OSRIC is the way to go.
After looking at those two "sets," I think the other editions and clones more or less repeat the same ideas with very small changes or additions.
I'm a big fan of Beyond the Wall, so that's the one I'd recommend if you want to take a look at a modernized version of earlier D&D with lots of tweaks. (Lifepath systems, different magic system, very different setting/inspiration assumptions, etc.)
D&D Basic Set - Player's Manual (BECMI ed.) (Mentzer, 1983) (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/116578/DD-Basic-Set--Players-Manual-BECMI-ed-Basic?filters=0_0_44699)
D&D Basic Set - DM's Rulebook (BECMI ed.) (Mentzer, 1983) (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/116619/DD-Basic-Set--DMs-Rulebook-BECMI-ed-Basic?filters=0_0_44699)
D&D Basic Set Rulebook (B/X ed.) (Moldvay, 1981) (Levels 1-3) (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?filters=0_0_44699)
D&D Expert Set Rulebook (B/X ed.) (Basic) (Moldvay, 1981) (Levels 4-14) (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/110792/DD-Expert-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?filters=0_0_44699)
D&D Rules Cyclopedia (Basic) (Levels 1-36) (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1&filters=0_0_44699)
Swords and Wizardry (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/ebookfinal9.pdf)
Labyrinth Lord (http://goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html)
Basic Fantasy (http://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html)
Quote from: misterguignol;802768I'm a big fan of Beyond the Wall, so that's the one I'd recommend if you want to take a look at a modernized version of earlier D&D with lots of tweaks. (Lifepath systems, different magic system, very different setting/inspiration assumptions, etc.)
Seconding this. Beyond the Wall is probably one of my absolute favorites for its mood, simplicity and especially for its lifepath character creation system. You can download a bunch of their playbooks for free on DriveThru (legitimately): they give you a really good idea what that lifepath system is like.
For my next 5e campaign, I will be adapting BtW's character creation system.
Quote from: Necrozius;802788For my next 5e campaign, I will be adapting BtW's character creation system.
Could you post that somewhere when you've got it written? I'd love to see that.
(I tried writing a bunch of lifepath stuff using the ones in BtW as a guide, and it felt like a TON of work. Much respect to the writers of BtW.)
I am a HUGE fan of lifepath systems. Intrigued.
The only problem is that one would have to modify how many ability score points one could get. Theoretically, a PC could get really lucky and end up with a stat much higher than 20 (taking a combat-oriented playbook, I calculated the final ability scores if a player got the boosts to Strength every time)
Quote from: Will;802794I am a HUGE fan of lifepath systems. Intrigued.
Basically, you pick a "playbook" (character class like Witch's Apprentice, Village Hero, etc.) and roll the dice on the playbook's tables to generate your ability scores, skills, special abilities, and the events of your background.
One of the neatest parts is that you make characters as a group and one of the events always involves another character--which they get a bonus for when you aided them or they aided you, or whatever. It's really excellent for making groups of characters that actually have reasons to be together.
Quote from: misterguignol;802798Basically, you pick a "playbook" (character class like Witch's Apprentice, Village Hero, etc.) and roll the dice on the playbook's tables to generate your ability scores, skills, special abilities, and the events of your background.
That sounds very Darklands-like to me, so consider me intrigued.
How do these lifepath tables compare to, say, Classic Traveller, Mongoose-Traveller or Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0? Is it all mechanical, or does it also have background implications and adventure hooks?
Can the same tables be used for NPCs? Does it have random tables to flesh out wilderness, adventure sites, NPCs and so on?
Quote from: Will;802752In an interest toward 'illustrative/good ideas,' any other editions you'd suggest?
Good ideas for what?
BX coveres quite a bit all on its own.
But if you want endgame and beyond level play then BECMI/Cyclopedia is a good suggestion as it has domain rules and how to become a god.
If you want more robust random dungeon and terrain gen then go with AD&D DMGs rules.
Quote from: Skyrock;802800How do these lifepath tables compare to, say, Classic Traveller, Mongoose-Traveller or Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0? Is it all mechanical, or does it also have background implications and adventure hooks?
I can't speak to how it compares with Traveller, as I've never read any versio of it. And to be honest I only have the dimmest memories of playing Cyberpunk 2020 in the mid 90s. I feel mostly-confident in saying that the tables in each playbook are shorter and more focused in BtW than they are in 2020.
The BtW playbooks definitely mix background implications and adventure hooks with the mechanical aspects of the character. For example, you might get an item as a result of one of your rolls that is left undefined...a DM could easily weave a plot around what that thing is and what it does.
QuoteCan the same tables be used for NPCs? Does it have random tables to flesh out wilderness, adventure sites, NPCs and so on?
You could use them for NPCs, but I'm not sure they be very efficient for that. There are tables for generating locations (like the starting village that all the characters are from), and for generating adventures (each adventure pack has random roll tables to customize the adventure).
Quote from: Herne's Son;802757Basic Fantasy (//www.basicfantasy.org) is a great clone of B/X D&D, with a few modern tweaks (ascending AC, etc.). It's also free in PDF, and sold at cost on Amazon.
And then there's also OSRIC (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/), for a similarly "free in PDF, cheap in hardcopy" take on AD&D 1e.
Basic Fantasy is a very good game, but it's not B/X. Most notably, it separates class and race.
Labyrinth Lord is the B/X clone.
I would reccomend B/X, or Labrynth Lord if you want it in one book. BECMI broke up the progression too much (the Thief abilities are broken up over 30+ levels). What I love about B/X is you have two books the size of modules that are the entire game.
Naturally, AD&D first is also a great read, and OD&D would be a good choice. Check out LotFP as well (the last edition is up on his site for free). Whitehack wasn't a bad microlite system either.
There's a Holmes clone called 'Blueholme' floating around the net somewhere as well (Vile had a thread on it in the Design & Development subforum).
Quote from: JeremyR;802834Basic Fantasy is a very good game, but it's not B/X. Most notably, it separates class and race.
Labyrinth Lord is the B/X clone.
Hence the "etc." after "modern tweaks".
Are you planning to run a campaign or three using the older systems? I'm not sure that a read-through will give much depth of perception as to what their strengths are.
No. And if not, oh well.
I'll glean what I can.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;802840There's a Holmes clone called 'Blueholme' floating around the net somewhere as well (Vile had a thread on it in the Design & Development subforum).
Here it is: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3982/Dreamscape-Design
Lulu print-on-demand coming soon! ;-)
If you don't want to fork out money, Labyrinth Lord (for BX) and OSRIC (for AD&D) are about as close to the originals as retro-clones get.
Quote from: Will;802794I am a HUGE fan of lifepath systems. Intrigued.
I enjoyed that in
Legendary Lives, not a clone - White Wolf magazine praised its innovative system design - but quite naively 'retro' in spirit before that was even a thing (late '80s - early '90s). The creators/owners have put the revised edition - a thick tome compared with the original two booklets, more page flipping to get a full picture - up for free in pdf (plus Lost Souls, a game about ghosts).
Tomorrow I have to take some time aside to follow up these great suggestions. Thanks. ;)
If you wanna save some download time, Will, I have a bajillion pdfs of most retroclones. I will happily email them to you.