After 6e fiasco, what do you think is the best course for Shadowrun to take in future editions?
I think it's time it reinvents itself, myself, in a way not so diffferent from what D&D has been doing over it's editions. And perhaps try the current zeitgeist of simpler and faster systems, something OSR-inspired (or -PbtA) would be cool, IMO.
The recent crpg video games were quite popular but they haven't been able to capitalise on that success.
It needs to come up with a truly streamlined system. That may alienate some but I'm not sure it will survive by relying on its current hardcore fanbase.
As long as Catalyst has nothing to do with it, it has a chance of success.
Quote from: Itachi;1137405After 6e fiasco, what do you think is the best course for Shadowrun to take in future editions?
I think it's time it reinvents itself, myself, in a way not so diffferent from what D&D has been doing over it's editions. And perhaps try the current zeitgeist of simpler and faster systems, something OSR-inspired (or -PbtA) would be cool, IMO.
There's already Cyberpunk genre PbtA games, what would you need Shadowrun for? PbtA isn't worth anything in a setting with 30 years of canon. You want to leverage that, not flush it all down the toilet in the generic setting creation phase most PbtA games have.
What Shadowrun needs is to Get the Band Back Together. Take over Catalyst or form a company with the heavy lifters of old FASA (Which will have a great hole in it without Nigel Findley, RIP) and go back to 2nd edition with a more streamlined Matrix system. Pick up where they left off.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1137448There's already Cyberpunk genre PbtA games, what would you need Shadowrun for? PbtA isn't worth anything in a setting with 30 years of canon. You want to leverage that, not flush it all down the toilet in the generic setting creation phase most PbtA games have.
1) There are PbtA games with settings.
2) I argued for PbtA/OSR-
inspired, which means taking ideas from those, not copy-pasting them.
Ie:
Use OSR -inspired generation tables for a system of job offers from johnsons and fixers based on your reputation with them. Do it in a
simple way, instead of the janky mess that SR sub-systems historically do things.
The Sprawl has a neat tool where, before play commences, players state what organizations they want to see and get entangled with, and then tie their characters to those through backstory. This gives a initial focus to the campaign (streets, barrens, government, corporate, military, crime, etc) with lots of hooks ready for the GM to use, including grudges/debts/compromises between players and/or those organizations.
Fusing the above ideas one could have a system where the crew starts at a field (say, streets) and go expanding to others (say, corporate, governm, etc) as they rise in reputation and get acquainted to new johnsons and fixers.
etc.
But nothing of that will work if you waste 2 hours on chargen, another 2 on combat and a whole session on hacking. So the whole system must be simplified. This would be the priority IMO.
Quote from: Nephil;1137443As long as Catalyst has nothing to do with it, it has a chance of success.
I so much agree with this.^
It needs to go as far
away from Catalyst as possible and in turn
towards real editors.
IMO, any attempts to streamline Shadowrun should be kept within its own system--using d6 dice pools to count successes (but perhaps simplifying its subsystems and skill lists)--rather than a adopt another system's mechanics. It ain't Shadowrun unless you're rolling a dozen d6's every time you do something in the game.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1137487IMO, any attempts to streamline Shadowrun should be kept within its own system--using d6 dice pools to count successes (but perhaps simplifying its subsystems and skill lists)--rather than a adopt another system's mechanics. It ain't Shadowrun unless you're rolling a dozen d6's every time you do something in the game.
I agree but would prefer to see the pools reduced. Like in say, Cortex Plus, Mutant Year Zero or Blades in the Dark, for eg.
I was a fan of SR big pools once. These days I find they just make the computing process longer without adding much.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1137482I so much agree with this.^
It needs to go as far away from Catalyst as possible and in turn towards real editors.
Absolutely!
Quote from: Itachi;1137493I agree but would prefer to see the pools reduced. Like in say, Cortex Plus, Mutant Year Zero or Blades in the Dark, for eg.
I was a fan of SR big pools once. These days I find they just make the computing process longer without adding much.
I really don't think that would be a good idea.
Rolling these big pools of D6 is just something else and feels great. You'd immediately lose most fans if you cut the dice pool.
It is also very difficult, on a mathematical level, to get the same statistics and balances of challenge ratings, etc. from a lower pool of dice. You can't replace "roll many dice" with "roll much fewer dice, but maybe add bonuses" easily.
Increase a skill by 1 and gain 1 dice - won't get much simpler than that.
Maybe you could increase the general cost of raising a skill, but then you'd also have to scale down attribute ranges and... ugh.
"Never change a running system" - much truth in that. And there's no need to change this aspect about SR.
Lots of other things need changing, though.
Good rulebooks would be a start - which you can get, if you are German (lucky me!), because Pegasus doesn't fuck their shit up as bad as Catalyst does. Honestly, if Pegasus would just get the rights to distribute globally, things would improve already.
But what might be even more (or just as) important would be what happens digitally.
There is no digital environment for SR, no strategy.
No semi-official sites like dndbeyond that offer a great character creator, finding tables, etc.
What you have right now is a few forums, which is simply too old school for many people nowadays, a few Discord channels, some excel sheets and Chummer. Meh.
An official character creator that is actually good and funded combined with some easy method to find tables online on whatever platform... A truly unified digital experience - now that would be a game changer, not even DnD really has that.
But none of it will happen before there is an actually good new SR edition, and I have my doubts by now if that will ever happen.
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137501But what might be even more (or just as) important would be what happens digitally.
There is no digital environment for SR, no strategy.
No semi-official sites like dndbeyond that offer a great character creator, finding tables, etc.
What you have right now is a few forums, which is simply too old school for many people nowadays, a few Discord channels, some excel sheets and Chummer. Meh.
An official character creator that is actually good and funded combined with some easy method to find tables online on whatever platform... A truly unified digital experience - now that would be a game changer, not even DnD really has that.
For an official digital character builder for SR may I direct you to Hero Lab https://www.wolflair.com/hlo/
Classic Hero Lab which is a buy once and install program (not the current monthly subscription bs) has data packs for SR 4th and 5th.
---Added---
And I agree that SR needs to get away from Catalyst. Return to 2nd/3rd ed mechanics as a basis for the rules. And get back in touch with the setting of 2nd ed.
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1137516For an official digital character builder for SR may I direct you to Hero Lab https://www.wolflair.com/hlo/
Classic Hero Lab which is a buy once and install program (not the current monthly subscription bs) has data packs for SR 4th and 5th.
Oh, I forgot about that one, actually.
I've used it a bit for Mutants & Masterminds.
But I was talking about a truly official character builder, built by the people behind SR themselves (or, well, paid by them, anyway ;) ), as one part of a complete online experience akin to dndbeyond (character editing/storing/exporting, rules, campaign helps, community, bots/modules/addons for vtt platforms like roll20, Discord, Fantasy Ground, etc.).
The current thing is... this: https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/
Just look at it, it's like a mediocre-amateur-webdesign fan page. The site doesn't even have an icon, ffs.
It makes me sad, really.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1137448...in a setting with 30 years of canon...
30 years of canon is not a positive for new players or GMs. You need to strip that shit down so there is a vivid background and setting to play but we don't need WoD levels of over-complicated background.
Quote from: Rhiannon;113757130 years of canon is not a positive for new players or GMs. You need to strip that shit down so there is a vivid background and setting to play but we don't need WoD levels of over-complicated background.
Yeah, this.
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137501I really don't think that would be a good idea.
Rolling these big pools of D6 is just something else and feels great. You'd immediately lose most fans if you cut the dice pool.
Shadowrun is in need of converting new fans more than keeping old ones, in my opinion. The new videogames made it more popular than ever for a new audience, but the RPG can't capitalize on that due to an overly complex ruleset and a bad publisher.
QuoteIt is also very difficult, on a mathematical level, to get the same statistics and balances of challenge ratings, etc. from a lower pool of dice. You can't replace "roll many dice" with "roll much fewer dice, but maybe add bonuses" easily.
But why keep same statistics? Just redo it's pool system from scratch. There are other dice pool systems out there, most more practical, simpler and faster than SR. Those should be top priorities for a new edition IMO.
Quote"Never change a running system" - much truth in that. And there's no need to change this aspect about SR.
Except Shadowrun is
crawling, not running. It's system is so overly complex and slow that some sub-systems became notorious cases of unplayability over the years. And this problem exists since 1st edition - chargen always took a little too long, combat slows to a crawl except for a small number of participants, decking halts the whole session, etc. None of that was invented in 4E. Again, IMHO. :)
P.S: something I would love to see: Fria Ligan's Shadowrun. Or some good OSR author (Mothership's? Mork Borg's? Beyond the Wall?) take on Shadowrun.
Might as well throw in my own personal wishes. I want a new Shadowrun revamped to be more consistent with Earthdawn. Essentially the way things used to be, only even more(and more consistently) so. I'd like to see a system heavily based on Earthdawn's system, but built from the ground up to handle all the near-future and cyberpunk stuff as well. And I mean that - talents, disciplines, strings, passions and questors, the works.
That's a neat idea, GeekEclectic. Tell us more! How are Earthdawn rules and how could it be tweaked to SR? What are talents, strings, passions, etc?
I'm not convinced that Earthdawn is super newbie friendly. I love it more than anything else I've ever played but the step system is very hard to work with especially once you get past Step 14 or so. "Okay so I know I have a d20 in there but what do I promote to after the d4? Okay it just goes d4, d6, d8 but what after that?" Plus the time adjusting steps for modifiers its a lot of time looking up tables YMMV.
The math is super elegant and the integration into the world is amazing.
Talents are like magically powered skills. There's mundane stuff like Melee Weapons which Adepts can enhance by spending Karma in order to be better than a non-Adept if it is a Discipline talent.
Disciplines are like Daos or Yogas -- paths that one follows to reach enlightenment. Each has a certain outlook on the universe and how it works and you seek to attune to that pattern. An Adept follows a Discipline -- think Physical Adept from SR.
Strings might be a misspelling of Steps? Basically you have a Step rating for most dice rolls and you look it up on a table to determine which dice you roll.
Passions are the Deities of the setting and Questors are those who have dedicated their efforts to the Passions. This is not Discipline specific so anyone could become a Questor for any Passion.
I've used Earthdawn for Shadowrun in the past but unfortunately did not keep the rules. It's fairly easy in that you just take the Blood Charms and call Cyber/bio/gene modification as technological version of that. Rules all stay the same and you keep Blood Charms in the game for Adepts and anyone who wants to make a weird Techno-Magical Cyborg.
Quote from: KingCheops;1137612Strings might be a misspelling of Steps?
No, I meant strings. As in strings, patterns, and matrices. I'd expect spellcasting to have matrices(immortal beings who have a vested interest in keeping spellcasting as safe as possible exist, after all), but not be nearly as dangerous to perform raw as it is in Earthdawn. The invae are present in some places, but actual proper horrors are still pretty rare and don't have a very good foothold yet. I would appreciate clearer rules on how to tie strings to objects, though, and an actual system for turning regularly-used-gear into Named items(at least some general guidelines and examples). I don't think Shadowrun characters used strings at all, and that's a whole thing just for Earthdawn. So I want Shadowrun, but with the string stuff(and related things like patterns, pattern items, named items, spell matrices, and maybe etc.).
The rest of your description was spot-on. Couldn't have said it better. And as far as actually working out the maths and systems for a cyberpunk setting, . . . I haven't gone anywhere near that rabbit hole. Like I know it's a pipe dream, but here was this thread, so . . . no harm in voicing desires when asked, yeah?
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1137628No, I meant strings. As in strings, patterns, and matrices. I'd expect spellcasting to have matrices(immortal beings who have a vested interest in keeping spellcasting as safe as possible exist, after all), but not be nearly as dangerous to perform raw as it is in Earthdawn. The invae are present in some places, but actual proper horrors are still pretty rare and don't have a very good foothold yet. I would appreciate clearer rules on how to tie strings to objects, though, and an actual system for turning regularly-used-gear into Named items(at least some general guidelines and examples). I don't think Shadowrun characters used strings at all, and that's a whole thing just for Earthdawn. So I want Shadowrun, but with the string stuff(and related things like patterns, pattern items, named items, spell matrices, and maybe etc.).
The rest of your description was spot-on. Couldn't have said it better. And as far as actually working out the maths and systems for a cyberpunk setting, . . . I haven't gone anywhere near that rabbit hole. Like I know it's a pipe dream, but here was this thread, so . . . no harm in voicing desires when asked, yeah?
I remember it running pretty well actually. It was just a matter of figuring out a few more rules interactions for modern combat and vehicles. The Earthdawn vehicle rules are not a selling point...
Strings. Ah okay Threads. Yeah the magic system is very cool. I touched on that a bit in the Discipline description but basically any Named thing (note the capitalization) has a True Pattern which is the weave of its existence. Each pattern is made out of threads that are woven together. People who learn about the fundamental nature of that thing can learn how to weave threads from their Pattern to that Pattern and thus gain some sort of power when interacting with it. In the case of spellcasting each spell is a specific weave that is potentially missing 1 or more threads. You take an action to weave the pattern of the spell and an extra action for each thread needed to complete the spell. There's the concept of Spell Matrices which are like containers used to hold the spell in a "clean" area of Astral Space so you don't suffer Drain to use the SR term.
If people are more interested in hearing about Earthdawn we can open a new post to avoid derailing this one further. Also my knowledge is mostly with 1e, 2e, and RedBrick Classic so I can't really speak to the currently published versions.
SR needs new owners, but the main financial value is the IP for video games. Because of the success of the IP beyond the tabletop game, the price for SR will be monstrously high. There's strong media value in the IP and eventually Disney may snatch it up and then the current owners are set for lifetimes.
If you want to see a "new SR", then its gonna have to be a retroclone that scratches the initials off the nameplate enough to avoid lawsuits. I doubt we'll see a "good" SR ruleset come out of any company owning SR, especially in the age of SJW idiocracy. More effort will go into virtue signalling than into the game math.
I've been working (for freaking years now) on a OSR(ish) version of SR(ish). CoronaChan fooked up my playtests and as we continue to descend into dystopia, I don't know if there's a market for a dark cyber-fantasy game in the coming "recession market". My instinct has been to shelve the project for the next year. In the meantime, I've switched gears to finish my "Not-Dark Sun" RPG instead.
Quote from: Itachi;1137589Shadowrun is in need of converting new fans more than keeping old ones, in my opinion. The new videogames made it more popular than ever for a new audience, but the RPG can't capitalize on that due to an overly complex ruleset and a bad publisher.
But why keep same statistics? Just redo it's pool system from scratch. There are other dice pool systems out there, most more practical, simpler and faster than SR. Those should be top priorities for a new edition IMO.
Except Shadowrun is crawling, not running. It's system is so overly complex and slow that some sub-systems became notorious cases of unplayability over the years. And this problem exists since 1st edition - chargen always took a little too long, combat slows to a crawl except for a small number of participants, decking halts the whole session, etc. None of that was invented in 4E. Again, IMHO. :)
I think it is pretty clear from this that you want SR to become a no-crunch system for dummies.
Hell, no!
There are more than enough "streamlined" systems out there for people who are unable to calculate 10+3-4 in their heads and unwilling to actually spend some time with their character creation.
You can easily take no-brainer systems with a complete lack of nuance and crunch like 5E and slap some cyberpunk on it, but please leave SR and other more meaty systems alone for those who are looking for more than just a narrative experience with a minimum of rules.
SR never was as huge as DnD and never will be.
To sell its soul in a desperate attempt for growth that is guaranteed to fail anyway would be way less productive than trying to remain true to its core while fixing the problems.
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137546But I was talking about a truly official character builder, built by the people behind SR themselves (or, well, paid by them, anyway ;) ), as one part of a complete online experience akin to dndbeyond (character editing/storing/exporting, rules, campaign helps, community, bots/modules/addons for vtt platforms like roll20, Discord, Fantasy Ground, etc.).
The current thing is... this: https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/
The current site for Shadowrun is https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/
But the current company is so incompetent they haven't bothered taking the old one down and linking everything over to the new site.
Hey TheSHEEEP,
Do you at least agree the game needs more agility in it's processes, even if it goes back to 2E/3E and the original pools and variable TN, etc? Don't you think chargen/combat/rigging/decking always took a bit too long and could be streamlined?
I can see where you're coming from. I'm also a SR vet who started in 2E/3E and have fond memories of it, but I find it already had problems back then.
The type who claims 5e is lacking in crunch will ensure that SR will slowly die as a system as surely as Hero and Gurps have slowly become more talked about than played systems.
Quote from: Itachi;1137735Hey TheSHEEEP,
Do you at least agree the game needs more agility in it's processes, even if it goes back to 2E/3E and the original pools and variable TN, etc? Don't you think chargen/combat/rigging/decking always took a bit too long and could be streamlined?
I do agree that rigging & decking could do with some streamlining. I know the latter at least is often not even used due to how complicated it is.
But chargen SHOULD take a longer time.
If you can build a character without much effort in less than 20 minutes, you have 0 investment in that character. That is one of the reasons people in 5E DnD and other simple systems online ghost and leave games so often.
If you didn't invest any time in your character, you lose nothing by just abandoning it and creating a new one. It just becomes a throwaway thing then.
If, however, you really need to sit down and think about how you build your character, you are already motivated to stick with it and have a much deeper connection.
People who are too lazy to do that are people I'd never play with to start with.
No idea why you think combat takes a long time, though. Especially with the modifiers from the health tracks, combat is actually rather quick in SR due to how everyone gets worse over the rounds.
If you want combat that really takes an eternity, I suggest you look at The Dark Eye ;)
Quote from: Rhiannon;1137752The type who claims 5e is lacking in crunch will ensure that SR will slowly die as a system as surely as Hero and Gurps have slowly become more talked about than played systems.
That may be a case, but then the question is: Who is this for? Make Shadowrun for the people that HATE Shadowrun and tell people that like Shadowrun to blow themselves?
Is it better to die then become a soulless lich?
And this is coming from a person that generally feels Shadowrun is over mechanized.
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137769I do agree that rigging & decking could do with some streamlining. I know the latter at least is often not even used due to how complicated it is.
We agree here.
QuoteBut chargen SHOULD take a longer time... if you can build a character without much effort in less than 20 minutes, you have 0 investment in that character.
Come on man, this doesn't make sense. Investment is in the eye of the beholder, and has little to do with specific systems. I built my last OSR char by rolling stats randomly concluding it in 30 min and I was completely hooked. I tried building a Shadowrun char in 5E and halfway through I dropped it as I realized the alocated priorities meant the resulting character was nothing like I envisioned it so now I had to redo the whole priority thing. It was an exercise in frustration, not investment. My point being: investment has more to do with how each person gets motivated or excited in relation to a given character, and while system may be a factor in this equation, it's far from being the only one, or most important one.
QuoteNo idea why you think combat takes a long time, though. Especially with the modifiers from the health tracks, combat is actually rather quick in SR due to how everyone gets worse over the rounds.
On the contrary, actually: the negative modifiers make hitting each other more difficult as combat goes by, thus making it taking even longer. There's a reason the concept of "death spiral" became frowned upon by designers since the 90s, because it risks making things boring with little gain except "muh realism".
And really? Anyone who played Shadowrun knows it's combat can take hours easily if you have more than a handful participants involved. Take 2 teams of 5 competent members each going at each other (say, experienced runners vs experienced corp security) and you can expect 2 hours minimum with all the "calculate initiative passes for each participant, calculate dice pools for each participant, calculate situational modifiers for each action.. consulting from a table with dozen ones like dim light, moving attacker, speed of target, weight of your weapon in relation to your strenght, fire mode (burst fire, full auto, single shot, etc), negative modifiers due to damage, etc. and that's just for a single action (of which everyone has two per turn!). Also remembering each rigger's drone and shaman spirit has their own initiative passes and modifiers and damage tracking,... All the while the decker has to keep facing trule procedural nightmares for the most banal of actions like turning off the lights or an alarm! And then everybody roll and calculate initiative again at each new round!
....and that's for each participant, NPCS included.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/9b5dfff59d70d79f328766802048d463/tenor.gif)
Anyone sane can see how that will make a game slow to a crawl. We dropped entire adventures because a combat took too long and someone had to go home. And a month from there when it was time to pick up where we let it off, everyone dreaded at the possibility of going back to that nightmare of slowness and granularity that was combat, and we preferred to assume it was resolved and start playing in a fresh situation.
Shadowrun don't need to lose it's identity of dice pools or variable target numbers or whatever, but it would be wise to take a look at how the hobby changed since and get some ideas from it. Otherwise it will become the new GURPS and HERO as Rhiannon says above, a game exclusively for grognards with little appeal to young players.
RE: Character Creation. In my experience prolonged character creation is no guarantee for player investment. At the contrary, it's usually an impediment for actual play.
I can't count the number of times I've been having trouble getting a group together, and when we finally do, we spend the ENTIRE session--not just two hours, but 4+ hours between session zero and going through every character option, buying equipment, etc. Then after that everyone is just spent, goes home, and next time we meet half the people can't make it, a handful of people who weren't there that day show up, most aren't even hot about the original campaign concept, setting or game, so we end up rolling new characters and playing something else.
Meanwhile with fast character creation there's no dicking around. You just make a few selections, your character is good, so let's go! You can make your character and play that same day. And unlike your prolonged character you spent hours agonizing over to never play, you have actual experiences with your new character to motivate you to play them again.
What happens after your last adventure? What do you do with all the treasure you found? Do we make it back to town to return the hostages we rescued or is there more trouble on the road back? Etc. Those are the things that bring people back to play in my experience. Not agonizing for hours to make a character they may or may not play.
VisionStorm post reflects exactly my experience.
There are also inbetweens of course. I generally dislike arguments based on 'The market'. Because you can always boil it down to the point that even a comatose player can play it.
And to a degree prepping and equipment helps flesh out a game like Shadowrun (Based on mercenary quick strikes) then 5e D&D (A fast and loose dungeon crawler).
Of course, there is always too much of anything, and Shadowrun has too much in spades, and also wildly unbalanced.
Conceptual levels Shadowrun has always struggled with more than its rules Id say (Only Mages deal with spirits and only hackers interact with a whole hacking subsystem). There has to be ways for the subsystems to tie into each other more.
This explains everything that's wrong with Shadowrun, IMO, even if the tone is a tad exaggerated:
http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-things-hate-shadowrun/
Quote from: Shrieking Bansheeand Shadowrun has too much in spades, and also wildly unbalanced
Yep, that's more or less the conclusion of the above article.
Quote from: Itachi;1137803Come on man, this doesn't make sense. Investment is in the eye of the beholder, and has little to do with specific systems. I built my last OSR char by rolling stats randomly concluding it in 30 min and I was completely hooked. I tried building a Shadowrun char in 5E and halfway through I dropped it as I realized the alocated priorities meant the resulting character was nothing like I envisioned it so now I had to redo the whole priority thing. It was an exercise in frustration, not investment.
Oh, don't get me wrong, that priority thing is something that never made much sense to begin with. It restricts you unnecessarily and is also wildly unbalanced.
It's one of the things I'd just take out of SR.
But: It is also optional, we used it once for our sessions and then moved right back to normal point buy because nobody liked it.
Quote from: Itachi;1137803My point being: investment has more to do with how each person gets motivated or excited in relation to a given character, and while system may be a factor in this equation, it's far from being the only one, or most important one.
Maybe if you are in it only for the narrative experience.
But if you are in it also for the crunch and the rules, then the system is a major factor.
You could give me the best DM, but if I'm playing 5E, I won't feel any connection to my character because the system doesn't allow me to build anything interesting that would really feel like "mine".
Quote from: Itachi;1137803And really? Anyone who played Shadowrun knows it's combat can take hours easily if you have more than a handful participants involved.
And yet, you are talking to someone who played SR for 10+ years without any such problems... seems to me you did it wrong.
Quote from: Itachi;1137803Take 2 teams of 5 competent members each going at each other (say, experienced runners vs experienced corp security) and you can expect 2 hours minimum with all the "calculate initiative passes for each participant, calculate dice pools for each participant, calculate situational modifiers for each action.. consulting from a table with dozen ones like dim light, moving attacker, speed of target, weight of your weapon in relation to your strenght, fire mode (burst fire, full auto, single shot, etc), negative modifiers due to damage, etc. and that's just for a single action (of which everyone has two per turn!). Also remembering each rigger's drone and shaman spirit has their own initiative passes and modifiers and damage tracking,... All the while the decker has to keep facing trule procedural nightmares for the most banal of actions like turning off the lights or an alarm! And then everybody roll and calculate initiative again at each new round!
1. Don't manually calculate everything, use tools. Get a laptop, get a phone. Many good tools around for initiative, etc. Nobody forces you to go full analog to draw things out unnecessarily. It's a scifi setting, go with the flow ;)
2. Don't calculate initiative every round. It's completely unnecessary, really. But hey, here you got a point you can easily convince me to streamline. Thumbs up! Didn't even remember you are supposed to do that in SR.
3. Players calculate their own rolls and should have everything in their heads anyway. It takes a few seconds to get the number of dice you have. For experienced players, anyway, of course things take longer if people are new. If you have a bunch of experienced players and combat still takes hours, then I don't know what to tell you. Go back to class?
4. Deckers... yeah, true, but we covered that already.
Quote from: Itachi;1137803And a month from there when it was time to pick up where we let it off everyone dreaded at the possibility of going back to that nightmare of slowness and granularity that was combat, and we preferred to assume it was resolved and start playing in a fresh situation.
Sounds to me like you got a bunch of inexperienced (in the system) players together, maybe even a DM inexperienced in it, and expected it go totally smoothly using a system that has some crunch and calculations.
And then went on to blame the system for your own shortcomings and wrong expectations.
Also, I'd never play in a game that isn't at least bi-weekly. It's just too much time, rips you out too much.
Quote from: Itachi;1137803Otherwise it will become the new GURPS and HERO as Rhiannon says above, a game exclusively for grognards with little appeal to young players.
I'm fine with that.
Not everything needs to be streamlined to death in a way to appeal to the apparently ever-shrinking intellectual and attention capabilities of younger players.
I'd rather see SR fizzle out at a high point than try to appeal to an audience that already has more than enough other alternatives.
Better to stick to your core audience and make those happy.
Not that Catalyst would be able to do that, so this is all highly theoretical.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1137806RE: Character Creation. In my experience prolonged character creation is no guarantee for player investment. At the contrary, it's usually an impediment for actual play.
I can't count the number of times I've been having trouble getting a group together, and when we finally do, we spend the ENTIRE session--not just two hours, but 4+ hours between session zero and going through every character option, buying equipment, etc. Then after that everyone is just spent, goes home, and next time we meet half the people can't make it, a handful of people who weren't there that day show up, most aren't even hot about the original campaign concept, setting or game, so we end up rolling new characters and playing something else.
Meanwhile with fast character creation there's no dicking around. You just make a few selections, your character is good, so let's go! You can make your character and play that same day. And unlike your prolonged character you spent hours agonizing over to never play, you have actual experiences with your new character to motivate you to play them again.
What happens after your last adventure? What do you do with all the treasure you found? Do we make it back to town to return the hostages we rescued or is there more trouble on the road back? Etc. Those are the things that bring people back to play in my experience. Not agonizing for hours to make a character they may or may not play.
There are many things wrong here....
Most importantly, you don't create characters in the session, you do it beforehand. In case of inexperienced players, you can do it with the DM, communicate online, obviously - in any case, the final characters have to be signed off by the DM. You don't waste session time for character creation.
In my ~20 years of playing PnP, I have never created a character during a designated PnP session, nor have I seen anyone do that. It honestly sounds insane to me.
Players unwilling to spend that time to create their characters outside of a session are players I'd never want to play with. They have already shown their lack of commitment.
If someone has so little free time as to not being able to spend a few hours over the course of a week or two on char creation, what the heck are they doing with a hobby like PnP?
This is not a hobby for extremely busy people.
If they are just doing it for the narrative experience, okay, but then SR is just not for them.
Also, and maybe this is a cultural thing, but if I agree to join a game, then I will stick with it as long as I can and not quit after a single session if something didn't work out perfectly.
If I agree to join a game known to have more crunch than other systems, I won't quit because "there's too much dice rolling" - wtf, do your research.
Every system has kinks you need to houserule over, and you need to encounter and "suffer" those kinks at least once until you know - and then the next time it will be better.
Quote from: Itachi;1137856Yep, that's more or less the conclusion of the above article.
Its funny because I found the listed examples....Generally not bad. Lots of stuff written is just stuff they seem to not like personally. 'You take penalties for running! Thats not fun!'. Thats just whiny.
The case is if you want uber simple and fun play with so many other systems that exist. I still think Shadowrun has too much stuff in places (The treading water rules are an example), and not enough quickgen GMrules. Also AWFUL editing. Words and words of babble. Mixing fluff and crunch together willy nilly.
I think Shadowruns rules are better then something like Exalted 3e. And that gets played. There is value in knowing your market.
I think Shadowrun needs a tune up, cleaned up wording, some conceptual revisions. But if it wants to be an uber lite who gives a shit system, why even bother since so many exist already?
I think my position and TheSHEEEP 's illustrate the dillema that Shadowrun is facing these days. Old grognards who love the game with all it's 80s quirks x new faces who want something simpler and faster as seen in modern media. I don't think it's an easy situation to solve, because if the pendulum pends to one side it risks alienating the other. Ie: I doubt many modern faces would like the "spend a whole session for chargen" that TheSHEEEP advocates; neither would a grognard like the "create a char in 45min max and start playing" I advocate for.
Shadowrun Anarchy seems to be an answer for the new faces, but as with everything Catalyst it was apparently released incomplete and full of quirks of it's own (Mr. johnsons paying jobs with karma cause there's no Nuyen in game? Wut?). Who knows, maybe in a second edition Anarchy can actually become good.
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137866There are many things wrong here....
Most importantly, you don't create characters in the session, you do it beforehand. In case of inexperienced players, you can do it with the DM, communicate online, obviously - in any case, the final characters have to be signed off by the DM. You don't waste session time for character creation.
In my ~20 years of playing PnP, I have never created a character during a designated PnP session, nor have I seen anyone do that. It honestly sounds insane to me.
Players unwilling to spend that time to create their characters outside of a session are players I'd never want to play with. They have already shown their lack of commitment.
If someone has so little free time as to not being able to spend a few hours over the course of a week or two on char creation, what the heck are they doing with a hobby like PnP?
This is not a hobby for extremely busy people.
If they are just doing it for the narrative experience, okay, but then SR is just not for them.
Also, and maybe this is a cultural thing, but if I agree to join a game, then I will stick with it as long as I can and not quit after a single session if something didn't work out perfectly.
If I agree to join a game known to have more crunch than other systems, I won't quit because "there's too much dice rolling" - wtf, do your research.
Every system has kinks you need to houserule over, and you need to encounter and "suffer" those kinks at least once until you know - and then the next time it will be better.
There seems to be many assumptions here...
First, most players don't even have their own books. Maybe they do where you live, but most people I know don't even play RPGs regularly. And the task of actually knowing the rules tends to fall largely on to the GM, at least as far as a significant portion of players are involved. And even when they do know the rules or own some of their own books, there's no guarantee that they'll know a game like a Shadowrun specifically. Usually its just D&D. Back in the day (the 90s) it might have been RIFTS or some other Palladium game as well (which seemed to be more popular where I live than SR). But usually, if I want to play some non-D&D game its just me who owns the books, and I have to explain them to everyone else and let them browse them during session.
So what am I supposed to do? Turn players away cuz they fail to meet to extreme standard that requires them to know the rules and have their own books before they try to join the game? Plus session zero and meeting to roll characters is almost like tradition in RPGs and it helps establish a relation and let me know what players are making and what sort of characters they want to play.
Additionally, most people have other responsibilities or life just happens sometimes. I've had players who joined one session, then their work schedules got shifted the week after and couldn't come again at the agreed time and day, cuz they had to work weekends now. Sometimes its an issue of commitment as well, but I have to work with the players I have, not the players I wish I did. People who play RPGs aren't that common where I live. And turning people away cuz they might not be committed enough and ready to put their lives on hold cuz of a game seems a little extreme. How am I supposed to get new people interested in the game if they have to meet some stringent standard and already know the rules and show up prepared from session 1 for a game they may have never even played?
Quote from: VisionStorm;1137910So what am I supposed to do? Turn players away cuz they fail to meet to extreme standard that requires them to know the rules and have their own books before they try to join the game?
Requiring players to know the rules is an extreme standard? You wanna play the modern-day game, most rules are easily available online through websites or PDFs.
Whats with it for DEMANDING a niche bends the knee to somebody else?
Again I advocate for streamlining myself but I really dislike arguments originating from the place: 'I don't like what you like. Change it for me'. The majority like beer and pretzel games usually about as complicated as checkers or jenga. Should D&D forcing people to the extreme standard of not being inebriated to play?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137916Requiring players to know the rules is an extreme standard? You wanna play the modern-day game, most rules are easily available online through websites or PDFs.
It is if they've never even played a RPG before or aren't terribly experienced with them. But I suppose I could just reject new players out of hand.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137916Whats with it for DEMANDING a niche bends the knee to somebody else?
Again I advocate for streamlining myself but I really dislike arguments originating from the place: 'I don't like what you like. Change it for me'. The majority like beer and pretzel games usually about as complicated as checkers or jenga. Should D&D forcing people to the extreme standard of not being inebriated to play?
Where did I argue ANY of this? I was replying to a reply to a post I made regarding character creation speed, not "demanding" that the game be changed.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137916Requiring players to know the rules is an extreme standard? You wanna play the modern-day game, most rules are easily available online through websites or PDFs.
There's a lot of casual players who don't have interest in knowing the rules past a superficial level. I play in 2 groups, of half a dozen people each, and one has a majority of casual players: people who don't have the time in their adult lives, nor the inclination, to learn complex rules of the kind you spend a whole session just to create a character. They still love the Shadowrun setting (which some met through the videogames) and woud like to continue playing.
What do you propose? That I kick them out for not having a deep knowledge of the rules?
Quote from: VisionStorm;1137920Where did I argue ANY of this? I was replying to a reply to a post I made regarding character creation speed, not "demanding" that the game be changed.
It's like saying 'Your food is terrible and I'm allergic to peanuts. I'm just saying'. It kinda expects a resolution.
Quote from: Itachi;1137931There's a lot of casual gamers who don't have interest in knowing the rules past a superficial level
A while back Shadowrun was a skin-deep shooter for the people who don't have the time in their adult lives, nor the inclination, to learn complex rules of the kind you spend a whole hour just to create a character.
If you wanna make an argument for rolling downhill, I don't really have an argument against it. Just don't complain when what you value is trampled as well.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137944while back Shadowrun was a skin-deep shooter....
...that had little to do with Shadowrun, so your point is moot.
My group met SR through recent videogames (Deagonfall, Hong Kong) or the old ones (SNES, Genesis), and that's what they expect to engage with.
Quote from: Itachi;1137946...that had little to do with Shadowrun
Don't complain. It was more accessible ergo its better.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137944It's like saying 'Your food is terrible and I'm allergic to peanuts. I'm just saying'. It kinda expects a resolution.
In my original post I wasn't even talking about Shadowrun specifically, but about prolonged/complex character creation vs quick character creation in general. And also commenting on the idea voiced by TheSHEEEP that complex character creation helps create player investment in their character and the game, under the assumption that if the player had to spend so much time creating their character then obviously they'd want to play it even more (as opposed to them thinking that if creating a character takes 2+ hours minimum then maybe this isn't the game for them, which is something I've heard numerous times, even from people who ultimately end up liking RPGs, but wish character creation was faster).
And even TheSHEEEP himself in that same post I was replying to, while addressing specific concerns that Itachi brought up about SR's character creation, admitted that...
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137866Oh, don't get me wrong, that priority thing is something that never made much sense to begin with. It restricts you unnecessarily and is also wildly unbalanced.
It's one of the things I'd just take out of SR.
...So not only are you not addressing the actual point of my post, but you're giving me shit over something even TheSHEEEP himself (who's the defender of SR's status quo here) actually AGREED is an issue. Since that "priority thing" is one of the greatest drags in SR's character creation process.
@Shrieking Banshee,
Reducing people's arguments to absurd levels just to prove one's point won't lead the conversation nowhere.
Go back to 3rd edition, when the original rules were at their peak. Copying White Wolf's system and using d6's instead just stole all the flavor that Shadowrun had. By 6e, the new White Wolf style Shadowrun was actually more complicated than the 3rd edition variation of the rules... despite the attempting being to streamline the system.
Go back, and go back to the feel in particular.
Quote from: Itachi;1137952@Shrieking Banshee,
Reducing people's arguments to absurd levels just to prove one's point won't lead the conversation nowhere.
Dude, that's all he knows how to do.
Quote from: Itachi;1137952Reducing people's arguments to absurd levels just to prove one's point won't lead the conversation nowhere.
You where the one that brought up kicking people out for the EXTREME of not learning rules. I stated REPEATEDLY that I was for streamlining. Fuck this.
I have zero interest or patience for games with more than 30 minutes of chargen. I'm cool with 45 minutes if its my very first time and I'm still trying to figure out WTF everything might be in the book. My problem isn't the time investment because I've often been happy to put 20 hours into prepping a 4 hour game, but long chargen tells me the system is making the PCs too precious.
But I've always been a low crunch / broad strokes gamer and I totally understand that heavy crunch games appeal to a certain demographic of the hobby. It not viable for one game to appeal to both groups.
However, we are very fortunate to live in the Golden Age of RPGs and SR can easily be recreated. There's probably already a few "cyberfantasy RPGs" already sitting on DriveThruRPG waiting for new players.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1137920It is if they've never even played a RPG before or aren't terribly experienced with them. But I suppose I could just reject new players out of hand.
This isn't about dismissing new players.
It is about not treating new players like a bunch of idiots and expecting them to behave like responsible people and do their share, get a rulebook*, read it, understand at least the basics and the rules pertaining to their own character and create their own characters. And helping them, of course, when there are questions (and there will be).
*Which can always be gotten for free, not everyone in a group has to buy every product.
There is a gigantic difference between a new player who is willing and eager to get to know a system and spend the time on it and a new player who just wants to sit down to get a story told, unwilling to invest any of their own time.
Quote from: Itachi;1137931There's a lot of casual players who don't have interest in knowing the rules past a superficial level.
First mistake: Don't play with casuals.
They easily ruin every conceivable hobby with their total lack of commitment.
And again, casuals != new players.
Casuals = unwilling.
New players = inexperienced.
One can be helped, the other one can't.
Quote from: Itachi;1137931people who don't have the time in their adult lives, nor the inclination, to learn complex rules of the kind you spend a whole session just to create a character. They still love the Shadowrun setting (which some met through the videogames) and woud like to continue playing.
First of all, people who don't have any time in their lives, have made the decisions to be in that situation. I'm not even talking about kids here, I've played with more than enough people with kids and they still managed to invest the time necessary to read rules and prepare their characters, and (generally) make it to all sessions, etc.
It's not a matter of "can't", it's a matter of "won't" - a matter of priorities.
If they love the setting, but not the system, then keep the setting and use some easy rules instead. Use 5E or something even simpler.
Change a few skill names, add a few skills and you're golden. It's not like the rules have to be great in the end, because your audience has proven not to care too deeply about the rules part.
Doesn't SR even have those narrative "rules" without most rules just for quick storytelling? Sounds exactly like what you need.
We used SR rules for a fantasy setting at some point, worked perfectly.
Why? Because settings are arbitrary, but a system isn't.
Quote from: Itachi;1137931What do you propose? That I kick them out for not having a deep knowledge of the rules?
I'd propose not playing casual rounds to begin with, but if you want to accomodate casuals, there are a ton of options all better than changing core SR rules.
Trying to get a bunch of casuals to play with SR rules sounds like a horrible idea to me.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137986But I've always been a low crunch / broad strokes gamer and I totally understand that heavy crunch games appeal to a certain demographic of the hobby. It not viable for one game to appeal to both groups.
However, we are very fortunate to live in the Golden Age of RPGs and SR can easily be recreated. There's probably already a few "cyberfantasy RPGs" already sitting on DriveThruRPG waiting for new players.
Exactly.
There are a great amount of systems with very low crunch, and applying an existing setting to one of them is not a lot of work.
No need to dumb down existing systems that actually have some crunch (not too many of those left that are still actively maintained) - what SR needs is better people working on it, not a completely different target audience.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1137951even TheSHEEEP himself (who's the defender of SR's status quo here)
I don't know about that.
The SR status quo at the moment is SR6, and that's hard to defend. I like to pretend SR5 is the latest SR ;)
I'm just saying the system (SR4 or 5) doesn't need a broad streamlining or revamp, just some improvements to selected parts and a core rulebook that isn't a complete mess.
And a digital strategy.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137986I have zero interest or patience for games with more than 30 minutes of chargen. I'm cool with 45 minutes if its my very first time and I'm still trying to figure out WTF everything might be in the book. My problem isn't the time investment because I've often been happy to put 20 hours into prepping a 4 hour game, but long chargen tells me the system is making the PCs too precious.
But I've always been a low crunch / broad strokes gamer and I totally understand that heavy crunch games appeal to a certain demographic of the hobby. It not viable for one game to appeal to both groups.
However, we are very fortunate to live in the Golden Age of RPGs and SR can easily be recreated. There's probably already a few "cyberfantasy RPGs" already sitting on DriveThruRPG waiting for new players.
At least as far as char gen is concerned point-buy systems like SR can easily be reduced to a few minutes prep work by simply turning character creation into a series preselected packages for common roles (deckers, street sammies, shamans, etc.) and backgrounds (street, former wage slave, corporate, etc), use average attributes by default, plus maybe a few selections to start one or two points higher. Then build everything else on top of that.
You don't even have to eliminate a single option from the system (at least progression-wise). You just have to wait. You could even handle lower than average attributes by using arrays or adding a few pre-calculated options of "lower X attributes by one point; increase Y attributes (not already increased) by one point". Each package could have a pre-calculated cost you deduct from your starting points, and if there are any left after you're done you could use them up if there's time, or wait till after session one, if everyone's ready to go (your package abilities should cover you anyways).
The problem is that most point-buy systems insist on making you build your character from zero, giving you all the snowflake options right out of the gate, rather than making you focus your character into being competent in one thing first, then building from that starting point. And the thing of it is EVERYONE is gonna end up taking certain skills at a basic level, like combat, spell casting (if they use magic), decking or whatever anyways. So making everyone buy all of that individually is a waste of time. Just take your package and add the snowflakes later.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137774That may be a case, but then the question is: Who is this for? Make Shadowrun for the people that HATE Shadowrun and tell people that like Shadowrun to blow themselves?
Is it better to die then become a soulless lich?
And this is coming from a person that generally feels Shadowrun is over mechanized.
Crunch = Soul? Why?
I think the attraction of SR is the setting not the system. People want to play 'fantasy meets cyberpunk' I don't see how loads of crunch has much to do with that.
Quote from: Rhiannon;1138008Crunch = Soul? Why?
I think the attraction of SR is the setting not the system. People want to play 'fantasy meets cyberpunk' I don't see how loads of crunch has much to do with that.
I have to disagree with this. Part of Shadowrun's appeal was the crunch. The fact it was a simulationist system, the rules reflected what your character was doing in the real world. Building a Drone and a Cyberdeck under the rules reflected what your character was actually doing, what parts they were using. It felt like a world you could live in, and the rules reflected that.
If anything, Shadowrun has lost ground and appeal the more it's gotten away from those original rules.
Quote from: Rhiannon;1138008Crunch = Soul? Why?
I think the attraction of SR is the setting not the system. People want to play 'fantasy meets cyberpunk' I don't see how loads of crunch has much to do with that.
Settings are arbitrary.
Take a simple all-around system (e.g. your average d20 system), rename a few skills, abilities, etc. and put everything in the SR world.
Done. You now have the setting you love with rules that won't require you to think. Barely takes any effort.
If you want all the fine-tuning you can do with all kinds of cyberware, magic, weapon-, armor- & vehicle-modifications, then you want the crunch.
Same with combat. You can have a system with a wealth of targets, firing modes, strategies, just loads of options here requiring a certain kind of mastery to play well - or just roll a d20 to see how much damage you did until the enemy drops dead.
That leads to the question why you'd even want any rules to begin with if they are so simple you might as well just sit around the table and talk without ever using any rules at all - but that's a different topic.
What makes a system is not the setting. That's just fluff, an easily replacable background. You can even do what I wrote and take SR rules to play a pure fantasy setting - it was still 100% Shadowrun rules, didn't matter that there was no scifi/cyberpunk.
What makes a system are the rules, and those cannot be replaced or it wouldn't even be the same system anymore.
Someone cited the priority chargen above (sorry don't have the time to check now), but I think it work pretty well in 2E, as it was super simple. I even remember the amounts going from A to E to this day: Atribs were 30/24/21/18/16 or something, Resources 1mi, 400k, 90k, 40k, etc. Then we tried it in 5E and got frustrated by how slow it was and wonder how they managed to complicate something that was so simple.
So I agree that, barring redoing everything from scratch (which would bother the grogs) the idea of going back to 2E/3E and then streamlining from it has merit.
Speaking of, what do you think of those specific pools like Combat, Magic, Rigging, Decking, etc? I admit I liked that more than the Edge-fest of newer editions. If it is to abort me from the fiction to manage some meta-currency, at least the Pools had a strategic factor that was interesting to play with.
Quote from: TheSHEEEPWhy? Because settings are arbitrary, but a system isn't.
I don'get this. Care to elaborate?
Quote from: Itachi;1138202I don'get this. Care to elaborate?
I did.
Look two posts above...
But I'll do it some more:
The fact that you can take any setting and apply it to (pretty much) any ruleset with just minor changes - and are then playing that system with a different setting - proves it.
If settings were not arbitrary, we could never have played the Shadowrun system in a pure medieval/fantasy setting.
In the end, a setting is no different from an adventure or a campaign.
It doesn't matter if you use something pre-made (e.g. adventure book or stick closely to the setting as laid out in the rulebooks) or use something entirely made up by the GM.
The system in these cases remains the same, defining what it is you are playing.
Most books even state very clearly that you can use their setting or completely scrap it.
No book states that you can use the rules or completely scrap them - houseruling is always necessary, but that's just relatively small adjustments.
They are called rulebooks for a reason. Not settingbooks.
Thanks for clarifying.
Don't know if I agree. I find that both setting and rules should speak to each other in some degree, and that "fit" is usually more important than each part individually. But that's me.
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;11378661. Don't manually calculate everything, use tools. Get a laptop, get a phone. Many good tools around for initiative, etc. Nobody forces you to go full analog to draw things out unnecessarily. It's a scifi setting, go with the flow ;)
2. Don't calculate initiative every round. It's completely unnecessary, really. But hey, here you got a point you can easily convince me to streamline. Thumbs up! Didn't even remember you are supposed to do that in SR.
3. Players calculate their own rolls and should have everything in their heads anyway. It takes a few seconds to get the number of dice you have. For experienced players, anyway, of course things take longer if people are new. If you have a bunch of experienced players and combat still takes hours, then I don't know what to tell you. Go back to class?
4. Deckers... yeah, true, but we covered that already.
If the solution to to much math is to hire an accountant, it's a bad system.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1139325If the solution to to much math is to hire an accountant, it's a bad system.
:D :D :D
I'm always amused when fans address complaints of complexity by saying "Nah it's just a matter of... [complex procedures for modification that's as complex as the original ensues]".
You gentlefolk seem like experienced players but a lot of the math that is daunting to some could be lessened somewhat using a VTT.
There is one that is ONLY built for Shadowrun and nothing else, which I find hilarious and so appropriate.
It's a pretty slick setup.
Think it's free to use. Maybe you guys can set a game up and have some fun during Covid.
Reddit thread group
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunKit/
SR Online Kit (use 'Guest') to check it out:
https://srkit.ca
(.ca? Yay Canada)
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1139325Quote1. Don't manually calculate everything, use tools. Get a laptop, get a phone. Many good tools around for initiative, etc. Nobody forces you to go full analog to draw things out unnecessarily. It's a scifi setting, go with the flow
2. Don't calculate initiative every round. It's completely unnecessary, really. But hey, here you got a point you can easily convince me to streamline. Thumbs up! Didn't even remember you are supposed to do that in SR.
3. Players calculate their own rolls and should have everything in their heads anyway. It takes a few seconds to get the number of dice you have. For experienced players, anyway, of course things take longer if people are new. If you have a bunch of experienced players and combat still takes hours, then I don't know what to tell you. Go back to class?
4. Deckers... yeah, true, but we covered that already.
If the solution to to much math is to hire an accountant, it's a bad system.
Was that just lazy quoting?
Your sentence doesn't even relate to 2., 3. or 4....
I'm going to go ahead and assume so.
How does using tools to make the flow a bit quicker equate to hiring an accountant?
It's just a matter of automating some stuff that helps with all systems, especially initiative passes, character HPs, etc.
About actual combat rules:
All it comes down to is just knowing your own values, maybe a dozen or two common modifications (running, behind cover, etc.) and being able to calculate numbers between 1 and 20 in your head.
Nothing that is even noteworthy or not automatically learned after a few sessions.
How anyone can consider this too much work or "too much math" is beyond me and if that kind of ignorance is something you wanna wear proudly on your sleeves, well, go right ahead... we do live in times where people are becoming more and more proud of their lack of education and mental capabilities again.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1139369You gentlefolk seem like experienced players but a lot of the math that is daunting to some could be lessened somewhat using a VTT.
There is one that is ONLY built for Shadowrun and nothing else, which I find hilarious and so appropriate.
It's a pretty slick setup.
Think it's free to use. Maybe you guys can set a game up and have some fun during Covid.
Reddit thread group
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunKit/
SR Online Kit (use 'Guest') to check it out:
https://srkit.ca
(.ca? Yay Canada)
That's pretty cool. Hadn't heard of it.
But it is pretty much what I was talking about, a tool that helps you organize and just run stuff faster than trying to get a big old block of assorted paper sheets in some order and drawing initiative phases on post-its ;)
One of my local FLGS seems to have reopened and I saw a copy of Shadowrun Anarchy on the shelf. For those who have played how is it? It's been mentioned a few times and I know it is more storygamey (not an issue for me) but I do want to know what the crunch is like. A slimmed down version of SR would be cool (instead of just using Dresden Files Fate or something else - Rifts/FFG Star Wars).
Quote from: KingCheops;1139513One of my local FLGS seems to have reopened and I saw a copy of Shadowrun Anarchy on the shelf. For those who have played how is it? It's been mentioned a few times and I know it is more storygamey (not an issue for me) but I do want to know what the crunch is like. A slimmed down version of SR would be cool (instead of just using Dresden Files Fate or something else - Rifts/FFG Star Wars).
I've heard it's cool as it retains some traits of SR (like dice pools) in a streamlined format. But it's apparently half-baked in that a lot of things are missing (there is no Nuyen, for eg., payment for runs is done in Karma.. ouch). So people usually play it heavily house-ruled. There's even a site with lots of tweaks and resources that some players say is mandatory, called "Surprise Threat":
https://www.surprisethreat.com/
I already play a light version of Shadowrun that runs fine for us, so I'm passing Anarchy for now. But if a 2nd edition comes out fixing current issues, Im totally getting it.
Thanks for the link! I'm more likely to play the others since I own them all already or stick with 3e but I'm curious enough to read that site.