That's a neat idea, GeekEclectic. Tell us more! How are Earthdawn rules and how could it be tweaked to SR? What are talents, strings, passions, etc?

I'm not convinced that Earthdawn is super newbie friendly.  I love it more than anything else I've ever played but the step system is very hard to work with especially once you get past Step 14 or so.  "Okay so I know I have a d20 in there but what do I promote to after the d4?  Okay it just goes d4, d6, d8 but what after that?"  Plus the time adjusting steps for modifiers its a lot of time looking up tables YMMV.

The math is super elegant and the integration into the world is amazing.

Talents are like magically powered skills.  There's mundane stuff like Melee Weapons which Adepts can enhance by spending Karma in order to be better than a non-Adept if it is a Discipline talent.
Disciplines are like Daos or Yogas -- paths that one follows to reach enlightenment.  Each has a certain outlook on the universe and how it works and you seek to attune to that pattern.  An Adept follows a Discipline -- think Physical Adept from SR.
Strings might be a misspelling of Steps?  Basically you have a Step rating for most dice rolls and you look it up on a table to determine which dice you roll.
Passions are the Deities of the setting and Questors are those who have dedicated their efforts to the Passions.  This is not Discipline specific so anyone could become a Questor for any Passion.

I've used Earthdawn for Shadowrun in the past but unfortunately did not keep the rules.  It's fairly easy in that you just take the Blood Charms and call Cyber/bio/gene modification as technological version of that.  Rules all stay the same and you keep Blood Charms in the game for Adepts and anyone who wants to make a weird Techno-Magical Cyborg.

Quote from: KingCheops;1137612Strings might be a misspelling of Steps?

No, I meant strings. As in strings, patterns, and matrices. I'd expect spellcasting to have matrices(immortal beings who have a vested interest in keeping spellcasting as safe as possible exist, after all), but not be nearly as dangerous to perform raw as it is in Earthdawn. The invae are present in some places, but actual proper horrors are still pretty rare and don't have a very good foothold yet. I would appreciate clearer rules on how to tie strings to objects, though, and an actual system for turning regularly-used-gear into Named items(at least some general guidelines and examples). I don't think Shadowrun characters used strings at all, and that's a whole thing just for Earthdawn. So I want Shadowrun, but with the string stuff(and related things like patterns, pattern items, named items, spell matrices, and maybe etc.).

The rest of your description was spot-on. Couldn't have said it better. And as far as actually working out the maths and systems for a cyberpunk setting, . . . I haven't gone anywhere near that rabbit hole. Like I know it's a pipe dream, but here was this thread, so . . . no harm in voicing desires when asked, yeah?

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1137628No, I meant strings. As in strings, patterns, and matrices. I'd expect spellcasting to have matrices(immortal beings who have a vested interest in keeping spellcasting as safe as possible exist, after all), but not be nearly as dangerous to perform raw as it is in Earthdawn. The invae are present in some places, but actual proper horrors are still pretty rare and don't have a very good foothold yet. I would appreciate clearer rules on how to tie strings to objects, though, and an actual system for turning regularly-used-gear into Named items(at least some general guidelines and examples). I don't think Shadowrun characters used strings at all, and that's a whole thing just for Earthdawn. So I want Shadowrun, but with the string stuff(and related things like patterns, pattern items, named items, spell matrices, and maybe etc.).

The rest of your description was spot-on. Couldn't have said it better. And as far as actually working out the maths and systems for a cyberpunk setting, . . . I haven't gone anywhere near that rabbit hole. Like I know it's a pipe dream, but here was this thread, so . . . no harm in voicing desires when asked, yeah?

I remember it running pretty well actually.  It was just a matter of figuring out a few more rules interactions for modern combat and vehicles.  The Earthdawn vehicle rules are not a selling point...

Strings.  Ah okay Threads.  Yeah the magic system is very cool.  I touched on that a bit in the Discipline description but basically any Named thing (note the capitalization) has a True Pattern which is the weave of its existence.  Each pattern is made out of threads that are woven together.  People who learn about the fundamental nature of that thing can learn how to weave threads from their Pattern to that Pattern and thus gain some sort of power when interacting with it.  In the case of spellcasting each spell is a specific weave that is potentially missing 1 or more threads.  You take an action to weave the pattern of the spell and an extra action for each thread needed to complete the spell.  There's the concept of Spell Matrices which are like containers used to hold the spell in a "clean" area of Astral Space so you don't suffer Drain to use the SR term.

If people are more interested in hearing about Earthdawn we can open a new post to avoid derailing this one further.  Also my knowledge is mostly with 1e, 2e, and RedBrick Classic so I can't really speak to the currently published versions.

SR needs new owners, but the main financial value is the IP for video games. Because of the success of the IP beyond the tabletop game, the price for SR will be monstrously high. There's strong media value in the IP and eventually Disney may snatch it up and then the current owners are set for lifetimes.

If you want to see a "new SR", then its gonna have to be a retroclone that scratches the initials off the nameplate enough to avoid lawsuits. I doubt we'll see a "good" SR ruleset come out of any company owning SR, especially in the age of SJW idiocracy. More effort will go into virtue signalling than into the game math.

I've been working (for freaking years now) on a OSR(ish) version of SR(ish). CoronaChan fooked up my playtests and as we continue to descend into dystopia, I don't know if there's a market for a dark cyber-fantasy game in the coming "recession market". My instinct has been to shelve the project for the next year. In the meantime, I've switched gears to finish my "Not-Dark Sun" RPG instead.

Quote from: Itachi;1137589Shadowrun is in need of converting new fans more than keeping old ones, in my opinion. The new videogames made it more popular than ever for a new audience, but the RPG can't capitalize on that due to an overly complex ruleset and a bad publisher.


But why keep same statistics? Just redo it's pool system from scratch. There are other dice pool systems out there, most more practical, simpler and faster than SR. Those should be top priorities for a new edition IMO.


Except Shadowrun is crawling, not running. It's system is so overly complex and slow that some sub-systems became notorious cases of unplayability over the years. And this problem exists since 1st edition - chargen always took a little too long, combat slows to a crawl except for a small number of participants, decking halts the whole session, etc. None of that was invented in 4E. Again, IMHO.

I think it is pretty clear from this that you want SR to become a no-crunch system for dummies.
Hell, no!

There are more than enough "streamlined" systems out there for people who are unable to calculate 10+3-4 in their heads and unwilling to actually spend some time with their character creation.

You can easily take no-brainer systems with a complete lack of nuance and crunch like 5E and slap some cyberpunk on it, but please leave SR and other more meaty systems alone for those who are looking for more than just a narrative experience with a minimum of rules.

SR never was as huge as DnD and never will be.
To sell its soul in a desperate attempt for growth that is guaranteed to fail anyway would be way less productive than trying to remain true to its core while fixing the problems.

Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137546But I was talking about a truly official character builder, built by the people behind SR themselves (or, well, paid by them, anyway ), as one part of a complete online experience akin to dndbeyond (character editing/storing/exporting, rules, campaign helps, community, bots/modules/addons for vtt platforms like roll20, Discord, Fantasy Ground, etc.).
The current thing is... this: https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/

The current site for Shadowrun is https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/
But the current company is so incompetent they haven't bothered taking the old one down and linking everything over to the new site.

Hey TheSHEEEP,

 Do you at least agree the game needs more agility in it's processes, even if it goes back to 2E/3E and the original pools and variable TN, etc? Don't you think chargen/combat/rigging/decking always took a bit too long and could be streamlined?

I can see where you're coming from. I'm also a SR vet who started in 2E/3E and have fond memories of it, but I find it already had problems back then.

The type who claims 5e is lacking in crunch will ensure that SR will slowly die as a system as surely as Hero and Gurps have slowly become more talked about than played systems.

Quote from: Itachi;1137735Hey TheSHEEEP,

 Do you at least agree the game needs more agility in it's processes, even if it goes back to 2E/3E and the original pools and variable TN, etc? Don't you think chargen/combat/rigging/decking always took a bit too long and could be streamlined?

I do agree that rigging & decking could do with some streamlining. I know the latter at least is often not even used due to how complicated it is.

But chargen SHOULD take a longer time.
If you can build a character without much effort in less than 20 minutes, you have 0 investment in that character. That is one of the reasons people in 5E DnD and other simple systems online ghost and leave games so often.
If you didn't invest any time in your character, you lose nothing by just abandoning it and creating a new one. It just becomes a throwaway thing then.
If, however, you really need to sit down and think about how you build your character, you are already motivated to stick with it and have a much deeper connection.

People who are too lazy to do that are people I'd never play with to start with.

No idea why you think combat takes a long time, though. Especially with the modifiers from the health tracks, combat is actually rather quick in SR due to how everyone gets worse over the rounds.
If you want combat that really takes an eternity, I suggest you look at The Dark Eye

Quote from: Rhiannon;1137752The type who claims 5e is lacking in crunch will ensure that SR will slowly die as a system as surely as Hero and Gurps have slowly become more talked about than played systems.

That may be a case, but then the question is: Who is this for? Make Shadowrun for the people that HATE Shadowrun and tell people that like Shadowrun to blow themselves?
Is it better to die then become a soulless lich?

And this is coming from a person that generally feels Shadowrun is over mechanized.

Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137769I do agree that rigging & decking could do with some streamlining. I know the latter at least is often not even used due to how complicated it is.

We agree here.

QuoteBut chargen SHOULD take a longer time... if you can build a character without much effort in less than 20 minutes, you have 0 investment in that character.

Come on man, this doesn't make sense. Investment is in the eye of the beholder, and has little to do with specific systems. I built my last OSR char by rolling stats randomly concluding it in 30 min and I was completely hooked. I tried building a Shadowrun char in 5E and halfway through I dropped it as I realized the alocated priorities meant the resulting character was nothing like I envisioned it so now I had to redo the whole priority thing. It was an exercise in frustration, not investment. My point being: investment has more to do with how each person gets motivated or excited in relation to a given character, and while system may be a factor in this equation, it's far from being the only one, or most important one.

QuoteNo idea why you think combat takes a long time, though. Especially with the modifiers from the health tracks, combat is actually rather quick in SR due to how everyone gets worse over the rounds.

On the contrary, actually: the negative modifiers make hitting each other more difficult as combat goes by, thus making it taking even longer. There's a reason the concept of "death spiral" became frowned upon by designers since the 90s, because it risks making things boring with little gain except "muh realism".

And really? Anyone who played Shadowrun knows it's combat can take hours easily if you have more than a handful participants involved. Take 2 teams of 5 competent members each going at each other (say, experienced runners vs experienced corp security) and you can expect 2 hours minimum with all the "calculate initiative passes for each participant, calculate dice pools for each participant, calculate situational modifiers for each action.. consulting from a table with dozen ones like dim light, moving attacker, speed of target, weight of your weapon in relation to your strenght, fire mode (burst fire, full auto, single shot, etc), negative modifiers due to damage, etc. and that's just for a single action (of which everyone has two per turn!). Also remembering each rigger's drone and shaman spirit has their own initiative passes and modifiers and damage tracking,... All the while the decker has to keep facing trule procedural nightmares for the most banal of actions like turning off the lights or an alarm! And then everybody roll and calculate initiative again at each new round!

....and that's for each participant, NPCS included.




Anyone sane can see how that will make a game slow to a crawl. We dropped entire adventures because a combat took too long and someone had to go home. And a month from there when it was time to pick up where we let it off, everyone dreaded at the possibility of going back to that nightmare of slowness and granularity that was combat, and we preferred to assume it was resolved and start playing in a fresh situation.

Shadowrun don't need to lose it's identity of dice pools or variable target numbers or whatever, but it would be wise to take a look at how the hobby changed since and get some ideas from it. Otherwise it will become the new GURPS and HERO as Rhiannon says above, a game exclusively for grognards with little appeal to young players.

RE: Character Creation. In my experience prolonged character creation is no guarantee for player investment. At the contrary, it's usually an impediment for actual play.

I can't count the number of times I've been having trouble getting a group together, and when we finally do, we spend the ENTIRE session--not just two hours, but 4+ hours between session zero and going through every character option, buying equipment, etc. Then after that everyone is just spent, goes home, and next time we meet half the people can't make it, a handful of people who weren't there that day show up, most aren't even hot about the original campaign concept, setting or game, so we end up rolling new characters and playing something else.

Meanwhile with fast character creation there's no dicking around. You just make a few selections, your character is good, so let's go! You can make your character and play that same day. And unlike your prolonged character you spent hours agonizing over to never play, you have actual experiences with your new character to motivate you to play them again.

What happens after your last adventure? What do you do with all the treasure you found? Do we make it back to town to return the hostages we rescued or is there more trouble on the road back? Etc. Those are the things that bring people back to play in my experience. Not agonizing for hours to make a character they may or may not play.

VisionStorm post reflects exactly my experience.

There are also inbetweens of course. I generally dislike arguments based on 'The market'. Because you can always boil it down to the point that even a comatose player can play it.

And to a degree prepping and equipment helps flesh out a game like Shadowrun (Based on mercenary quick strikes) then 5e D&D (A fast and loose dungeon crawler).
Of course, there is always too much of anything, and Shadowrun has too much in spades, and also wildly unbalanced.

Conceptual levels Shadowrun has always struggled with more than its rules Id say (Only Mages deal with spirits and only hackers interact with a whole hacking subsystem). There has to be ways for the subsystems to tie into each other more.