After 6e fiasco, what do you think is the best course for Shadowrun to take in future editions?

I think it's time it reinvents itself, myself, in a way not so diffferent from what D&D has been doing over it's editions. And perhaps try the current zeitgeist of simpler and faster systems, something OSR-inspired (or -PbtA) would be cool, IMO.

The recent crpg video games were quite popular but they haven't been able to capitalise on that success.

It needs to come up with a truly streamlined system. That may alienate some but I'm not sure it will survive by relying on its current hardcore fanbase.

As long as Catalyst has nothing to do with it, it has a chance of success.

Quote from: Itachi;1137405After 6e fiasco, what do you think is the best course for Shadowrun to take in future editions?

I think it's time it reinvents itself, myself, in a way not so diffferent from what D&D has been doing over it's editions. And perhaps try the current zeitgeist of simpler and faster systems, something OSR-inspired (or -PbtA) would be cool, IMO.

There's already Cyberpunk genre PbtA games, what would you need Shadowrun for?  PbtA isn't worth anything in a setting with 30 years of canon.  You want to leverage that, not flush it all down the toilet in the generic setting creation phase most PbtA games have.

What Shadowrun needs is to Get the Band Back Together.  Take over Catalyst or form a company with the heavy lifters of old FASA (Which will have a great hole in it without Nigel Findley, RIP) and go back to 2nd edition with a more streamlined Matrix system.  Pick up where they left off.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137448There's already Cyberpunk genre PbtA games, what would you need Shadowrun for?  PbtA isn't worth anything in a setting with 30 years of canon.  You want to leverage that, not flush it all down the toilet in the generic setting creation phase most PbtA games have.

1) There are PbtA games with settings.

2) I argued for PbtA/OSR-inspired, which means taking ideas from those, not copy-pasting them.

Ie:

Use OSR -inspired generation tables for a system of job offers from johnsons and fixers based on your reputation with them. Do it in a simple way, instead of the janky mess that SR sub-systems historically do things.

The Sprawl has a neat tool where, before play commences, players state what organizations they want to see and get entangled with, and then tie their characters to those through backstory. This gives a initial focus to the campaign (streets, barrens, government, corporate, military, crime, etc) with lots of hooks ready for the GM to use, including grudges/debts/compromises between players and/or those organizations.

Fusing the above ideas one could have a system where the crew starts at a field (say, streets) and go expanding to others (say, corporate, governm, etc) as they rise in reputation and get acquainted to new johnsons and fixers.

etc.

But nothing of that will work if you waste 2 hours on chargen, another 2 on combat and a whole session on hacking. So the whole system must be simplified. This would be the priority IMO.

Quote from: Nephil;1137443As long as Catalyst has nothing to do with it, it has a chance of success.

I so much agree with this.^

It needs to go as far away from Catalyst as possible and in turn towards real editors.

IMO, any attempts to streamline Shadowrun should be kept within its own system--using d6 dice pools to count successes (but perhaps simplifying its subsystems and skill lists)--rather than a adopt another system's mechanics. It ain't Shadowrun unless you're rolling a dozen d6's every time you do something in the game.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1137487IMO, any attempts to streamline Shadowrun should be kept within its own system--using d6 dice pools to count successes (but perhaps simplifying its subsystems and skill lists)--rather than a adopt another system's mechanics. It ain't Shadowrun unless you're rolling a dozen d6's every time you do something in the game.

I agree but would prefer to see the pools reduced. Like in say, Cortex Plus, Mutant Year Zero or Blades in the Dark, for eg.

I was a fan of SR big pools once. These days I find they just make the computing process longer without adding much.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1137482I so much agree with this.^

It needs to go as far away from Catalyst as possible and in turn towards real editors.

Absolutely!

Quote from: Itachi;1137493I agree but would prefer to see the pools reduced. Like in say, Cortex Plus, Mutant Year Zero or Blades in the Dark, for eg.

I was a fan of SR big pools once. These days I find they just make the computing process longer without adding much.

I really don't think that would be a good idea.
Rolling these big pools of D6 is just something else and feels great. You'd immediately lose most fans if you cut the dice pool.
It is also very difficult, on a mathematical level, to get the same statistics and balances of challenge ratings, etc. from a lower pool of dice. You can't replace "roll many dice" with "roll much fewer dice, but maybe add bonuses" easily.
Increase a skill by 1 and gain 1 dice - won't get much simpler than that.
Maybe you could increase the general cost of raising a skill, but then you'd also have to scale down attribute ranges and... ugh.
"Never change a running system" - much truth in that. And there's no need to change this aspect about SR.

Lots of other things need changing, though.
Good rulebooks would be a start - which you can get, if you are German (lucky me!), because Pegasus doesn't fuck their shit up as bad as Catalyst does. Honestly, if Pegasus would just get the rights to distribute globally, things would improve already.

But what might be even more (or just as) important would be what happens digitally.
There is no digital environment for SR, no strategy.
No semi-official sites like dndbeyond that offer a great character creator, finding tables, etc.
What you have right now is a few forums, which is simply too old school for many people nowadays, a few Discord channels, some excel sheets and Chummer. Meh.
An official character creator that is actually good and funded combined with some easy method to find tables online on whatever platform... A truly unified digital experience - now that would be a game changer, not even DnD really has that.

But none of it will happen before there is an actually good new SR edition, and I have my doubts by now if that will ever happen.

Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137501But what might be even more (or just as) important would be what happens digitally.
There is no digital environment for SR, no strategy.
No semi-official sites like dndbeyond that offer a great character creator, finding tables, etc.
What you have right now is a few forums, which is simply too old school for many people nowadays, a few Discord channels, some excel sheets and Chummer. Meh.
An official character creator that is actually good and funded combined with some easy method to find tables online on whatever platform... A truly unified digital experience - now that would be a game changer, not even DnD really has that.

For an official digital character builder for SR may I direct you to Hero Lab https://www.wolflair.com/hlo/
Classic Hero Lab which is a buy once and install program (not the current monthly subscription bs) has data packs for SR 4th and 5th.


---Added---
And I agree that SR needs to get away from Catalyst. Return to 2nd/3rd ed mechanics as a basis for the rules. And get back in touch with the setting of 2nd ed.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1137516For an official digital character builder for SR may I direct you to Hero Lab https://www.wolflair.com/hlo/
Classic Hero Lab which is a buy once and install program (not the current monthly subscription bs) has data packs for SR 4th and 5th.

Oh, I forgot about that one, actually.
I've used it a bit for Mutants & Masterminds.

But I was talking about a truly official character builder, built by the people behind SR themselves (or, well, paid by them, anyway ), as one part of a complete online experience akin to dndbeyond (character editing/storing/exporting, rules, campaign helps, community, bots/modules/addons for vtt platforms like roll20, Discord, Fantasy Ground, etc.).
The current thing is... this: https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/

Just look at it, it's like a mediocre-amateur-webdesign fan page. The site doesn't even have an icon, ffs.
It makes me sad, really.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137448...in a setting with 30 years of canon...

30 years of canon is not a positive for new players or GMs. You need to strip that shit down so there is a vivid background and setting to play but we don't need WoD levels of over-complicated background.

Quote from: Rhiannon;113757130 years of canon is not a positive for new players or GMs. You need to strip that shit down so there is a vivid background and setting to play but we don't need WoD levels of over-complicated background.

Yeah, this.

Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1137501I really don't think that would be a good idea.
Rolling these big pools of D6 is just something else and feels great. You'd immediately lose most fans if you cut the dice pool.

Shadowrun is in need of converting new fans more than keeping old ones, in my opinion. The new videogames made it more popular than ever for a new audience, but the RPG can't capitalize on that due to an overly complex ruleset and a bad publisher.

QuoteIt is also very difficult, on a mathematical level, to get the same statistics and balances of challenge ratings, etc. from a lower pool of dice. You can't replace "roll many dice" with "roll much fewer dice, but maybe add bonuses" easily.

But why keep same statistics? Just redo it's pool system from scratch. There are other dice pool systems out there, most more practical, simpler and faster than SR. Those should be top priorities for a new edition IMO.

Quote"Never change a running system" - much truth in that. And there's no need to change this aspect about SR.

Except Shadowrun is crawling, not running. It's system is so overly complex and slow that some sub-systems became notorious cases of unplayability over the years. And this problem exists since 1st edition - chargen always took a little too long, combat slows to a crawl except for a small number of participants, decking halts the whole session, etc. None of that was invented in 4E. Again, IMHO.


P.S: something I would love to see: Fria Ligan's Shadowrun. Or some good OSR author (Mothership's? Mork Borg's? Beyond the Wall?) take on Shadowrun.

Might as well throw in my own personal wishes. I want a new Shadowrun revamped to be more consistent with Earthdawn. Essentially the way things used to be, only even more(and more consistently) so. I'd like to see a system heavily based on Earthdawn's system, but built from the ground up to handle all the near-future and cyberpunk stuff as well. And I mean that - talents, disciplines, strings, passions and questors, the works.