Quote from: misterguignol;458469I was talking about a different book that is specific about what "narrative" means as a literary concept, not a general dictionary.

I regret to inform you that link happens to take you directly to the Oxford Concise Dictionary.  Which, If I recall, you recommending the look-up from.

Quote from: GameDaddy;458471I regret to inform you that link happens to take you directly to the Oxford Concise Dictionary.  Which, If I recall, you recommending the look-up from.

Add "of Literary Terms to the end of that, and you would have been correct here. The link is the Oxford Concise Dictionary. Not, as far as I can tell, the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Literary Terms.

Quote from: GameDaddy;458471I regret to inform you that link happens to take you directly to the Oxford Concise Dictionary.  Which, If I recall, you recommending the look-up from.

No, this is the title of the book I recommended above: Oxford Concise Dictionary of Literary Terms.

See the part that says LITERARY TERMS?  That makes it different from the Oxford Concise Dictionary because it is, in fact, the name of a different book.  Oddly enough, it is a book that deals specifically with LITERARY TERMS.

Why are you so illiterate?  Seriously, your posts rarely make sense and you make insane claims about having s00per sekrit Tesla technology--must we add a reading disability to your list of "accomplishments"?

Here, I'll provide a concrete example in case you're a "visual learner": note how this is different from this.

Quote from: GameDaddy;458471I regret to inform you that link happens to take you directly to the Oxford Concise Dictionary.  Which, If I recall, you recommending the look-up from.

Do you like gladiator movies?

Quote from: Aos;458478Do you like gladiator movies?

Have you ever been in a Turkish Prison?

This thread is turning into a Monty Python sketch. Which is pretty cool when you read it with the guys' voices in mind.

Quote from: Sigmund;458474Add "of Literary Terms to the end of that, and you would have been correct here. The link is the Oxford Concise Dictionary. Not, as far as I can tell, the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Literary Terms.

Hrrrm....

Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief.
~William Shakespeare, Hamlet


The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do.  ~Thomas Jefferson

Also a good talent for the gaming table, where after all... you have four to eight people interactively creating an epic story instead of one tard forcing a story on everyone at the table.

Quote from: Aos;458478Do you like gladiator movies?

Actually, yes. Gladiator rocked. Spartacus: Sands of the Arena rocked, Spartacus rocked (Both the old and the Starz 2010 remake).

Ben-Hur was pretty good too.

Quote from: JDCorley;458415But you do agree that whether a character hits someone can be relevant to a narrative, right? And if I am trying to decide if a fictional character hits someone, a mechanic that tells me to roll a die, add some stuff up and compare some numbers will directly control the narrative at that point, right?

Nope. That's like saying that Peyton Manning is controlling the narrative of a football game when he throws a pass. And, thus, football is a story game! Ta da!

As I said before: That is only vaguely true if you use a singularly useless and stupid definition of "narrative". If you want to insist on using that useless and stupid definition, then you're only going to end up with the sort of stupid and useless conclusions that you've been posting to the thread.

Quote from: Benoist;458459Precisely. Now learn to read. Words have meaning.

Yep, exactly, as I have said all along!  My definition of narrative is just the normal everyday walking around version of the word, not some weird piece of jargon that applies in some places but not in others.

Quote from: GameDaddy;458483Hrrrm....

Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief.
~William Shakespeare, Hamlet

Of course, said by one of the most long-winded droners in Shakespeare.

Quote from: JDCorley;458491Yep, exactly, as I have said all along!  My definition of narrative is just the normal everyday walking around version of the word, not some weird piece of jargon that applies in some places but not in others.

Allow me to repeat: Learn. To. Read. The words in your own definition. Try to understand what they mean. Come on: you can do it. It's not rocket science. Then check out the thread again, and hopefully, you'll have an epiphany.

Otherwise, nevermind.

Quote from: Sigmund;458462It depends. It can come close, if you're doing it in the context of creating a "narrative"".  However, I would say that the mechanics you describe would not truly directly affect "the narrative". They influence "the narrative". However, the raw numbers can actually be narrated in many different ways while still being consistent with the numerical result.

I don't mean to repeat myself, but I have to insist because you really are not reading what I'm writing. Certainly it's relevant to the narrative if someone gets hit, right? We can describe it in many ways, sure, but that doesn't change the mechanic, or its impact on a story someone is trying to experience or tell, does it?

I'm not saying people can't interpret/utilize the mechanic in different ways, or that every person who uses that mechanic is using it to create a narrative.  I have never said that and anyone who has read this thread knows I haven't ever said that.  In fact I have denied these things multiple times.

I'm only saying that hit points and armor class and so on directly control the question of whether someone gets hit in D&D, and that can be a relevant part of the narrative. Surely you agree with me!  Then, when I am a story gamer, D&D's combat system can absolutely support my desires to aim at story when I play. So can its dialogue rules, and the role of the GM, and the city/faction creation rules, and the magic rules, and so on.

QuoteAnd I say your definition is garbage, because it's so vague and encompassing that it actually says very little. Now that I know how you use the term, when you write "story game", I anticipate being forced to search for a great deal more information just to divine what style of game you're referring to, and that's before I even get to the specifics. It would actually be more helpful if you don't use the term "story game" at all.

Those before me called it "story oriented play", but ugh, "oriented"?!  Ugh.  My definition is extremely precise. I don't know how much play it encompasses, because I don't know how much of the hobby plays aiming at story. Some people think it's a lot, some people think it's a tiny minority? I don't know. How do you know so many people play aiming at story, far too many people in far too many ways for my definition to be useful? You say it's too encompassing, okay, show me! What percentage of people play, say, D&D3/Pathfinder aiming at story?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;458488Nope. That's like saying that Peyton Manning is controlling the narrative of a football game when he throws a pass. And, thus, football is a story game! Ta da!

Actually. He does. And it is his story game. Peyton's story that he wants to tell. I remember one time in a pre-season game against the Bengals, Coach Dungee benched Peyton Manning and the Colts lost. Oh, #18 was pissed. He really hates losing you know? Even in a pre-season game.

He knew, if he could have got out there and thrown a few passes he could have got the Colts turned around, but it wasn't to be that day.

The very next game between the two was a season defining game.  The colts were 2-1 and the Bengals were also 2-1 and they were facing each other again. This time, Coach Dungee told Manning, give it everything you got, and cut him loose on the field, reminding him of how the Bengals had humiliated his team without him. The colts blew out the Bengals something like 51-17 and went on to their first super bowl win with Manning leading the team.

Quote from: Benoist;458493Allow me to repeat: Learn. To. Read. The words in your own definition. Try to understand what they mean. Come on: you can do it. It's not rocket science.

Nope, I'm still a hundred percent right. Story gaming is gameplay that aims at story.  Story games are games played aiming at story. Narrative is story. Simple.