Quote from: Tyberious FunkNo offence, but while I agree with what you are saying it is a stupid argument to make.  It basically amounts to the argument that nothing in a field of study is as revolutionary as the creation of the field itself.  Ummm... duh?
 
You're setting the bar pointlessly high.

Re-read my last post.  It's not a stupid argument to make, it's the only argument to make that doesn't hold the danger of wandering into value judgement territory, something that is ultimately going to be a useless quagmire of pointless bickering when it comes to a subjective topic like RPGs.  

You won't find very many, if any, actual objective improvements on the hobby anywhere in it's 30+ years of history.  Nothing that the group as a whole can point to and say "This is undeniably better than RPGs as they were before".  For every new approach or mechanical concept or style that someone thinks is fucking brilliant, there's going to be plenty others who think it's awful.

Which is why approaching RPGs from the viewpoint of looking for "innovation" is ultimately going to be a futile gesture that boils down to a lot of people pointing at stuff they like, and a lot of other people responding with "what the hell is so great about that?"

RPGs are not technology.  RPGs are a subjective medium.  The same rubrics do not apply, and the same terminology cannot necessarily be used without causing disruption.

Quote from: J ArcaneRe-read my last post. It's not a stupid argument to make, it's the only argument to make that doesn't hold the danger of wandering into value judgement territory, something that is ultimately going to be a useless quagmire of pointless bickering when it comes to a subjective topic like RPGs.

Except... this is a discussion forum.  If the things we discussed were all objective truths, it would get boring pretty quickly, don't you think?

Quote from: Tyberious FunkExcept... this is a discussion forum.  If the things we discussed were all objective truths, it would get boring pretty quickly, don't you think?

We've had plenty of discussion of my hypothesis haven't we?  

Seriously, sometimes it's nice to cut straight down the the bare bones instead of letting the discussion spin in the usual circles, no?  

And it also sort of cuts right to the heart of exactly why the comment that sparked this thread got so many people steamed.  Claims of "innovation" in RPGs are very, very often steeped in value judgements that are likely to piss someone off.

That quote basically paraphrases to "The forge are the only ones improving RPGs", and that's neither a true statement, or one that's not destined to piss off a hell of a lot of people who don't think much of what the Forge has done with games.

Quote from: J ArcaneThat quote basically paraphrases to "The forge are the only ones improving RPGs", and that's neither a true statement, or one that's not destined to piss off a hell of a lot of people who don't think much of what the Forge has done with games.

But this is why I posted the thread in the first place...
 
... I don't like that many Forge games, but I do think some of them are innovative.  Although I'm happy to admit that the breadth of my knowledge on RPGs is limited and a game that looks innovative to me could well be a re-hash of something old.  
 
I guess what I was expecting to see was a fair bit of... "Indie Game X was innovative because it did Y" followed by "Actually, X was in Mainstream Game Z, years earlier" or "Yep, Y was definitely innovative.  Stupid, but innovative."

Quote from: Elliot WilenThat's kind of silly, since Arneson himself credits Weseley and the Braunstein as the genesis of what became D&D.

Arneson is allowed to say that.
When he says it, its one of the actual CREATORS of the RPG citing some of his influences.
When the Swine say it, its their pathetic attempt to claim that Gygax and Arneson didn't invent the RPG.

See the difference?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSee the difference?

The motivations are different, but the truth is still the same?

Quote from: mearlsIf innovation = more fun, then I think there's been a ton of innovation over the years. Across the board, RPGs and games of all types are more fun now than they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago.

That's a pretty wild statement; but before I go off all half-cocked, could you please tell me WHY you think they're more fun?  I suspect when you think about it that the reason will have far less to do with actual RULES as it will with format and structure.

Note that this includes the idea of having a single-resolution mechanic. This is a STRUCTURAL change, not a rules innovation, in the same way that making different pieces of software more compatible with each other is a structural change, not a change in how any given piece of software in and of itself functions.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Tyberious FunkNo offence, but while I agree with what you are saying it is a stupid argument to make.  It basically amounts to the argument that nothing in a field of study is as revolutionary as the creation of the field itself.  Ummm... duh?
 
You're setting the bar pointlessly high.

Point out to me one "improvement" in actual RPG rules that EVERYONE agrees makes RPGs objectively better than before.

I think certain people are setting the bar pointlessly LOW in order to claim they're just as brilliant as Gygax or more deserving of praise than Arneson for the creation of their shitty little gimmicky micro-game or tic-tac-toe based task resolution system...

RPGPundit

Quote from: Tyberious FunkBut this is why I posted the thread in the first place...
 
... I don't like that many Forge games, but I do think some of them are innovative.  Although I'm happy to admit that the breadth of my knowledge on RPGs is limited and a game that looks innovative to me could well be a re-hash of something old.  
 
I guess what I was expecting to see was a fair bit of... "Indie Game X was innovative because it did Y" followed by "Actually, X was in Mainstream Game Z, years earlier" or "Yep, Y was definitely innovative.  Stupid, but innovative."

Yeah but see, I could put a stupid yellow swirl on the top of my car and call that "innovative" but it wouldn't be a real innovation, it would just be idiotic window-dressing.

Almost all the changes to RPG's mechanics over the years have been just that, cosmetic window-dressing.  Do you like rolling a lot of skill checks, or attribute checks? Do you like Saving throws? Classes? levels? Point-buy?

Going from one of those things to another, going from level-based to point-buy for example, is not something that fundamentally changes the nature of the game, it doesn't fix a fundamental flaw in the game, it does not universally improve the experience of play. It isn't even really DIFFERENT except in the most superficial aesthetic way.

You know what universally improves the experience of play? Having a book layout where the rules are organized in a way that makes sense. Having an index. Having task resolution systems that are consistent. Marketing. Network externalities. Those are where the real innovations are found.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Tyberious FunkThe motivations are different, but the truth is still the same?

Much like Pundit's posts to this thread when compared to mine, I might point out.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkThe motivations are different, but the truth is still the same?

No, what they're saying is actually totally different.

Its like the difference between claiming that Mary Shelley was an influence on Lovecraft when he invented the Cthulhu mythos, and claiming that it was actually Mary Shelley who invented the Cthulhu mythos.

One is giving credit where its due. The other is just a fucking lie.

RPGPundit

Nobody except RPGPundit and J_Arcane has suggested that "innovation" is either/or. There are degrees of newness and useful difference. Nor has anyone said that these new and different things are good for everybody.

Certainly the greatest innovation was to invent rpgs in the first place. But that does not mean there have been no significant innovations since, or that any innovation must have been universally good.  

Again, RPGPundit is posting a logical fallacy based on a rush to extremes, excluding a middle ground. Specifically, the fallacy of the excluded middle.
"I am against capital punishment."
"What, so we should just let them all go?!"
"I am in favour of capital punishment."
"What, so we should execute people for jaywalking?!"
"Have there been any innovations in rpgs since their invention?"
"No, because if they were true innovations they wouldn't be rpgs any more."

Things admit of degrees.

Now, can we please set this absurdity aside and have people mention what they consider to be innovations in rpgs? These may be, as the OP said, innovations in either game mechanics, or style and writing.

Like my hypothetical example: have there been any rpgs which presented the rules entirely "in-character" for that game world? That would be an innovation of style and writing.

The Bold truth is this : MOST Gamers out there have not heard about the fricking FORGE and don't care about it one way or the other.

 If I actually thought it worth the time and did a survey of gamers at the 4 or 5 stores locally and asked what the Innovations of REPG-type gaming have been over the past 20 years ..heres whatr I might get :

 The LARP/World of Darkness stuff

 The whole Open Game License idea

 Honestely I can't think much else that would stand out to general gamers. Except maybe when their favorite setting is turned into an RPG book or gets a NEW Book devoted to it.

 You know what ? - Thats okay. The whole RPG idea of gaming still works  for thje most part

 The Forge ? You ask most gamers out there - and they haven't heard of it. Only gamer types that spend a LOT of time online have heard of the Forge, the so-called Indie Revolution, or bumped into the Swine shit.

 My opinion...your kilometerage may vary


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarThe Bold truth is this : MOST Gamers out there have not heard about the fricking FORGE and don't care about it one way or the other.

Clearly, this is a problem that we must remedy by discussing it incessantly!

!i!

Quote from: KoltarIf I actually thought it worth the time and did a survey of gamers at the 4 or 5 stores locally and asked what the Innovations of REPG-type gaming have been over the past 20 years ..heres whatr I might get :

 The LARP/World of Darkness stuff

 The whole Open Game License idea

What the hell does how many people have heard of a concept/idea have to do with quality or level of innovation? This is crazy trees falling in the forest Zen koan thinking.