well i summoned the ghost of lovecraft and asked him where half orcs come from.
he blamed ozzy osbourne.

ymmv

Quote from: VisionStorm;1126131Your argument is incoherent because its all over the place and you keep moving the goal posts (you've been arguing non-stop about games portraying orcs as irredeemable monsters PCs feel no guilt slaughtering, but now you're pretending your ONLY issue has been their sexuality all along? BULLSHIT!), and no matter what you'll always find a way to complain and nitpick to keep whining. Case in point...



Rampaging rapist orcs are bad. Noble savage orcs are also bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And those articles you posted simply make superficial comparisons between orcs and wartime propaganda, which obviously--assuming that a race of beings like traditional D&D orcs actually did exist--any information about them would have at least superficial similarities to wartime propaganda, cuz even if such propaganda is normally exaggerated in real life, in this case it presumably happens to be true. So are we not supposed to provide accurate information about a race that hypothetical does exist in a world out of fear of arousing distrust from easily offended people cuz that information looks like wartime propaganda despite (on this case) being true? Or are we supposed to change the "truth" of that race because you choose to take offense from it?



Perhaps, but "monster races" have also become increasing prevalent in recent editions of D&D, and as far as I can tell orcs are rarely (if ever) explicitly portrayed as rapists in D&D products and the only real difference between them an 40K orks is that 40K orks are apparently asexual. Otherwise we're talking about the same thing, except you choose to like 40k orks for arbitrary reasons that contradict the diatribe you're written in most of these posts.

 

This entire thread suggests otherwise. But move those goal posts.



Which absolutely NO ONE has done, but keep arguing against points people never made. I eagerly await you twisting my bringing up Goblin Slayer pages ago as a tongue in cheek rebuke as proof positive I was justifying orc infanticide as a good thing.



It doesn't have to serve ANY purpose. But if you insist...

Traditional "Tolkienesque" Orcs are like the fomorians or similar mythological beings that represent the chaotic, destructive primal forces that threaten the harmonious order of civilization. They're a personification and embodiment of such forces. They're not supposed to be naturally evolved creatures with hopes and dreams, but personifications of chaos and depravity. They aren't "real" normal humanoid creatures, but symbolic entities that represent the mythological conflict between Order and Chaos I've often seen you bring up in other threads but obviously have absolutely ZERO understanding about.

Greetings!

VisionStorm, did you read the two articles that Box of Crayons posted?

Both of them are written by total SJW's that are gargling on the sweet chewies of Left-wing Marxism, including the smug nonsense that Tolkien was a racist. And of course, "White people can't experience racism." On and on, and on. I was right. All of this "critique" comes gushing forth from Liberal, Marxist, SJW ideology.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Melan;1125731The assumption was simply that some people just have seriously low standards - not unlike real life - and there would certainly be many more people like this than rapists.

Ours is a world where people have sex with goats and horses. An orc is at least bipedal and verbal.

Rape will happen in any society. But humans are overall so horny they'll fuck anything.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1126178Ours is a world where people have sex with goats and horses. An orc is at least bipedal and verbal.

Rape will happen in any society. But humans are overall so horny they'll fuck anything.

**cough**Neanderthals**cough**

in fact if you check the starfleet captains handbook scanning for fuckable orifices is the second procedure to be executed after basic hailing in first contact missions.

Quote from: SHARK;1126144Greetings!

I agree, Shrieking Banshee. Your commentary opposed to Box of Crayons has me thinking about his crazy interpretation. Why all the tears about Orcs? What about Lizardmen, and Snakemen, and...Ratmen?

Are these savage, often primitive and bestial races, are they really just misunderstood as well? Are they as races, deeply infused with the same kind of moral agency as Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings?

And while we're at it, in this fantastic, moralistic and egalitarian world, *hypothetically*--if any or all of these *monstrous races* are morally equal in every way to humanity and so on, then really, what makes them genuinely different? If they are not genuinely different, at a fundamental level--then really they are just humans with a different coloured hat.

From that, if they are not really different on a fundamental level, and they share the same kind of complex moral agency as Humans--then why not just get rid of them, and have everyone just be different colours and tribes of humans.

Exactly. Then the fucking SJW's would be whining about how savage and misogynistic and racist everyone is to *fellow humans* in the fantasy game world. Whaa, whaa, whaa! and on and on they would go, writing deep, bloviating articles and thought-pieces criticizing how everyone is a bunch of racist, misogynistic, Imperialist and Colonialists!:D

It never ends!:D

On a different angle, I don't mind some Orcs or whoever not always being evil. That's all good. The crying and vilification of those that *enjoy* or *prefer* using Orcs as evil monsters--amongst the other monstrous humanoid races--is what is wrong, and I find such quite annoying and self-righteous.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I never vilified anyone for using humanoids as target practice. I knocked over bags of XP and loot every time I played.

I am perfectly content with acknowledging RPGs as essentially violent crime fantasy. Killing fictional people can be cathartic.

I think people should be free to play games that depict racial violence. Whether that is real human races or fantasy races.

Going to extreme lengths to justify wanton slaughter as morally upright is creepy as hell, but I don't think anybody is bad for doing that. Unimaginative, perhaps, but not a bad person. I'm pretty sure the reason why is because people love slavishly copying Tolkien and don't care to think through the philosophical implications of there being entire races of beings that are born evil.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1126131(you've been arguing non-stop about games portraying orcs as irredeemable monsters PCs feel no guilt slaughtering, but now you're pretending your ONLY issue has been their sexuality all along? BULLSHIT!)

I'm not saying that. I fully acknowledge that RPGs are violent crime fantasy and there's nothing wrong with that.

In fact, as someone else said before, PCs don't feel guilt about slaughtering human targets despite humans not being born evil.

The "they want our women" message written into a lot of lore is creepy as hell, but that's hardly the only contributor to why its creepy as hell. I could go on about how the way RPGs easily depict misogyny in an exploitative manner, but that's a whole other topic.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1126131Rampaging rapist orcs are bad. Noble savage orcs are also bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Do you even know what a noble savage is in the context I'm using it? It doesn't mean "non-evil humanoid race." It's a term that was applied to actual human beings by colonizers. It has really unsavory connotations. There's a whole wikipedia page if you're interested.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1126131And those articles you posted simply make superficial comparisons between orcs and wartime propaganda, which obviously--assuming that a race of beings like traditional D&D orcs actually did exist--any information about them would have at least superficial similarities to wartime propaganda, cuz even if such propaganda is normally exaggerated in real life, in this case it presumably happens to be true. So are we not supposed to provide accurate information about a race that hypothetical does exist in a world out of fear of arousing distrust from easily offended people cuz that information looks like wartime propaganda despite (on this case) being true? Or are we supposed to change the "truth" of that race because you choose to take offense from it?

You're essentially saying that the monster manual depicts a world that is the fantasy equivalent of nazi racial propaganda being true. You're essentially saying that it's okay to play the equivalent of Racial Holy War as long as we replace all mention of real groups with fictional humanoid races.

Which I can't argue with because I don't disagree. I just said RPGs are violent crime simulators.

In fact, I'm not even opposed to people playing RaHoWa. It's repulsive but I don't think it should be censored or banned. I don't think anybody is bad for playing it. You don't need to be a racist to consume product with racist messaging in it.

I just think we should be honest with ourselves about the eerie resemblance between the rhetoric used to describe D&D's humanoids and the caricatures in RaHoWa or the rhetoric used by Manifest Destiny to dehumanize First Nations people.

The monster manual posits a world that is the fantasy equivalent of colonizer rhetoric being true. Just because it is fiction doesn't mean that resemblance doesn't exist. Having that resemblance doesn't mean the game is bad or that people playing it are bad.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1126131Which absolutely NO ONE has done, but keep arguing against points people never made. I eagerly await you twisting my bringing up Goblin Slayer pages ago as a tongue in cheek rebuke as proof positive I was justifying orc infanticide as a good thing.

I never said anyone here suggested infanticide was morally justified, just that it has been brought up elsewhere because it's a pretty common meme in case you didn't know. Are you arguing that killing baby orcs is wrong? If so, then why are we not justified in killing baby orcs? Are they not born evil? Should we kill baby orcs or not? Why?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1126131Traditional "Tolkienesque" Orcs are like the fomorians or similar mythological beings that represent the chaotic, destructive primal forces that threaten the harmonious order of civilization. They're a personification and embodiment of such forces. They're not supposed to be naturally evolved creatures with hopes and dreams, but personifications of chaos and depravity. They aren't "real" normal humanoid creatures, but symbolic entities that represent the mythological conflict between Order and Chaos I've often seen you bring up in other threads but obviously have absolutely ZERO understanding about.

That's not how orcs or other humanoid races are depicted in the monster manual or fiction at large. They're not symbolic entities, they're fictional subhumans who are human-like in terms of intelligence, social structure, etc but it's morally justified to slaughter them because they're born evil and lack free will. In other words, humanoids are basically the fantasy equivalent of the nazi's racial hierarchies or the shallow pop-culture interpretation of Germanic tribes as caricatures dedicated to destroying civilizations.

Furthermore, you're not even describing the fomorians in an accurate manner. They're far and away from Tolkienesque orcs. Plenty of fomorian characters are depicted with redeeming qualities. They aren't a entire race of sadistic rapists like Tolkienesque orcs are often depicted. Equivalents in other mythologies, like jotun and asura, are depicted with far more nuance that you are crediting them with.

You're probably thinking of D&D's demons, not humanoids. The humanoids are basically Germanic tribes attacking Rome with a beastman skin tacked on.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126142And if they where that would make killing them OK? Geeze how immoral of you man. As long as something LOOKS like you and shares your traits its worthy of life but if it doesn't its worth being slaughtered?

Your ethics make me sick! Sick I say!

There is a big difference between 1) an orc who is essentially a human being (complete with intelligence, culture, family, blah blah blah) except that the writers have arbitrary decided they're guilt-free targets in a similar manner to how wartime propaganda depicted real people and 2) a demon who was sent to hell for using their free will to do bad things in life as a human being.

The way humanoids are depicted is essentially the fantasy equivalent of a universe where the nazis were right about racial hierarchies.

Playing that doesn't make you a nazi.

Roleplaying a violent psychopath who gleefully murders innocent people doesn't make you that in real life.

I played Postal 2 and loved butchering innocent people for fun. That doesn't mean I'd ever do the same in real life.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126142But peer pressuring others with guilt and association with historical atrocities and comparing them to historical propaganda is aight? While at least I said that its fine to have noble orcs, I found the notion on getting caught up with moralizing on fantastic fiction stupid, you where the one that said its allegorical to propaganda.

Everything can be tied to somekind of propaganda, or abuse, or form of suffering. I don't make all orcs evil in my game and in my current game Its currently set in a 'Post Dark Lord' Orc country, and how the orcs are dealing with this new political situation.

But this whiny preachy 'Think about the orc children!' stuff just makes me really annoyed.

I don't think people should be guilted out of playing the fantasy equivalent of RaHoWa. I think people should be free to play FATAL too. Playing RaHoWa or FATAL doesn't make you a bad person. Playing a game where orcs are guilt-free targets doesn't mean you're a racist who thinks it's okay to kill [insert real world group here]. I value free expression like that.

I think we should be conscious of the fact that the way D&D's humanoids are depicted shares commonalities with the caricatures in propaganda. That doesn't make us bad people for playing violent crime simulators.

I don't think we should lie to ourselves that we aren't playing violent crime simulators with rhetoric reminiscent of propaganda that was historically used to justify killing real people.

Quote from: SHARK;1126170Greetings!

VisionStorm, did you read the two articles that Box of Crayons posted?

Both of them are written by total SJW's that are gargling on the sweet chewies of Left-wing Marxism, including the smug nonsense that Tolkien was a racist. And of course, "White people can't experience racism." On and on, and on. I was right. All of this "critique" comes gushing forth from Liberal, Marxist, SJW ideology.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Oh joy.

I'm getting the feeling that you guys are arguing in bad faith because you think I'm an evil SJW who wants to send in the thought police to censor your games. I'm not. I just said I'm totally okay with people playing RaHoWa and FATAL. (And yes, I'm sure that eventually somebody will take my words out of context.)

The way D&D depicts humanoids bears a disturbingly close resemblance to real life racist and colonizer propaganda used throughout history to justify man's inhumanity to his fellow man. I would think that this would be pretty obvious to anyone who has studied history, but I'd love to read any contrasting essays on the topic.

Acknowledging such parallels exist doesn't mean the game is evil or that players are evil, anymore than playing Cowboys & Indians means you want to kill First Nations people in real life. The parallels are obvious, and I suspect part of the reason people might refuse to acknowledge it is because they think it will reflect badly on them. It doesn't.

I'll use a reverse example. The video game This Land Is My Land is a revenge simulator. You play as a generic native american man who goes around murdering white colonists in revenge for the horrors of colonization. This is morally repugnant. Colonization was horrific, but revenge killing isn't morally superior. But playing and enjoying This Land Is My Land doesn't make you a racist who wants to exterminate white people in real life, nor should a game about playing a white person murdering native americans make you a racist who wants to kill natives in real life. So playing essentially the same game, except killing orcs, doesn't make you a racist. Playing a game with morally repugnant elements doesn't make you a bad person in real life. (And before you accuse the developers of being SJWs, they're a Ukranian studio. The Ukraine has experience with colonization by the nazis, so I suspect there may be a sublimation element somewhere.)

If a game like This Land Is My Land can receive wild acclaim despite its premise of racial violence, then we should be totally okay with any racial violence in roleplaying games. Depicting racial violence doesn't mean you advocate racial violence in real life. I would think that would be obvious.

But fuck it all.

I'm a cynical condescending bastard who only sees the worst in people and looks forward to the apocalypse because I hate humanity and wishes it would go extinct. I fully expected you guys to dismiss everything I said and dismiss me as a loony SJW who wants to steal your toys, demonize you as a crypto-fascist, and moralize over our silly little elf-games.

I'm tired of arguing. You win this argument. From this moment forward, I will advocate that orcs should be evil, should be exterminated at every opportunity, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an evil SJW.

i hate it when you trade a wagonload of whiskey and rifles to an orc tribe for a valley and they pack up and shuffle off, only to return 6 months later in a rape'n'raid lovefest when your town is half built, and respond to your "yo we had a deal greenskin" with "deal was with old chief, we have new chief now". makes me want to forcibily relocate them all to an out of the way patch where, if they won't join in the new civ i'm building, they at least will be less inclined to attack or hinder it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126183I never vilified anyone for using humanoids as target practice.

I guess if you get to define what villification is then yes. You did not villify anybody.
But I will assume your acting out of ignorance as opposed to malice. So to clarify:

I think people felt plenty villified for being told that having evil humanoids makes you complicit in propaganda and racial extermination fantasies. Wanting to play superhero doesn't originate in fantasies about being a violent thug that wants to hurt people without law, wanting to play cops and robbers doesn't make you either fantasize about breaking the law or punishing people that do.
And playing fantasy hero with a abstracted antagonistic force doesn't make you a goddam racial exterminator fantacizer.

So get off your morallity bullshit high chair you constructed out of pretzel sticks and used boxes of chearios. Fuck off with your moral equivication.

I get your fucking game now. You have this bullshit pattern that you demand everybody follow and if they don't their ignorant bumpkins.
Do you drink coffee by calling it 'Forced labor beans'? Do you call coal power 'Poison smoke zappers?'. Id guess you would because your playing this bullshit moralizing game.

Like I just can't get over this stupidity.

Is Mario Brothers an animal abuse simulator? Those games actually make it clear that the enemies hes fighting have families and normal lives but he mowes them down without a second thought.

Is Pac Man a vore fetish game?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120Here are a couple articles explaining the criticism of the rapist savages:
https://www.thefandomentals.com/evil-races-fantasy/
https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/6/30/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human

The latter even praises 40k's space orks.

I hope those articles can articulate the criticism in a better way than I can. I hope you will find them educational.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126183I'm getting the feeling that you guys are arguing in bad faith because you think I'm an evil SJW who wants to send in the thought police to censor your games. I'm not. I just said I'm totally okay with people playing RaHoWa and FATAL. (And yes, I'm sure that eventually somebody will take my words out of context.)

The way D&D depicts humanoids bears a disturbingly close resemblance to real life racist and colonizer propaganda used throughout history to justify man's inhumanity to his fellow man. I would think that this would be pretty obvious to anyone who has studied history, but I'd love to read any contrasting essays on the topic.

I don't have an opposing essay at this point, but I can dispute it. I would argue that the resemblance between fantasy monsters and wartime propaganda is precisely because both of them borrow from the local mythology. Much of the propaganda imagery is clearly not racist, as you noted with the monstrous image of Germans -- who were the enemy, but not a racial enemy.

If our whole culture were to shift -- say in a hundred years -- and we eliminated monster imagery like the orc, then it would just be replaced with some other symbol of evil. Let's suppose the new symbol of evil is an orange-faced man with a huge comb-over. Then that imagery would be used in wartime propaganda to justify dehumanizing the enemy.

Any symbol of evil will be used to justify dehumanizing and attacks against the enemy. And we will have symbols of evil, because evil exists. Wartime propaganda will adapt to use whatever imagery people believe in.

I think there is racism, and there is racism in some fantasy -- but the resemblance to wartime propaganda is spurious. It just shows common roots, not an inherent problem with the symbol.

As the second article noted, it was pretty easy for WH40K to cast orcs as British soccer hooligans -- which suggests that the colonialist imagery of orcs isn't at their core. It's a weak association at best.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126183Going to extreme lengths to justify wanton slaughter as morally upright is creepy as hell...
The "they want our women" message written into a lot of lore is creepy as hell...

Maybe it's just me, but I find 'creepy as hell' to have negative connotations. Which fits oddly with an "it's fine to play Nazi Humans killing Untermenschen Orcs" claim. I'm not seeing a consistent position.

Quote from: SHARK;1126170Greetings!

VisionStorm, did you read the two articles that Box of Crayons posted?

Both of them are written by total SJW's that are gargling on the sweet chewies of Left-wing Marxism, including the smug nonsense that Tolkien was a racist. And of course, "White people can't experience racism." On and on, and on. I was right. All of this "critique" comes gushing forth from Liberal, Marxist, SJW ideology.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I read some of it then skimmed the rest. Typical spurious arguments desperately trying to link Tolkien to racism and eeevil colonizers, cuz fantasy can't feature evil creatures without it being some sort of secret dog whistle calling for the extermination of purportedly lesser races. Nothing I had not read before from what I could see.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126183I never vilified anyone for using humanoids as target practice. I knocked over bags of XP and loot every time I played...

*too long post snipped for brevity*

Orcs aren't innocent victims of Nazi propaganda used by evil white people as an excuse to exterminate them and steal their land. They're monstrous humanoids that (at least in the context of traditional D&D) really are vile rampaging savages out to pillage and destroy everything in their path and enslave anyone who survives. They're in no way comparable to Native Americans being driven from their land by evil colonizers--the orcs ARE the "colonizers".

You are taking completely different things out of context and willfully forcing parallels based on incidental and superficial similarities in a desperate attempt to find "creepy" justification for "wanton slaughter" and all forms of depravity within them. Then you keep insisting you're OK with these things existing in an RPG, even as you continue moping about them and lamenting their "disturbing" implications with your incessant passive aggressive whining, hoping that the world would end because these game elements you're totally 100% OK with exist.

But you're not vilifying anyone. You just hope that the apocalypse would come because some humanoid races in a FICTIONAL game world are depicted as evil creatures. Some of the time. Which makes it Nazi propaganda.

Wow, that's a lot of hubbub on a topic that seems like it should be simple.

In my games, orcs fill the roll of "evil bad guy that you don't have to feel bad about killing because they're evil and will kill you if given the chance."  They're savage, animalistic, and brutish, and there really is not any peaceful contact between humans and orcs ever.  Thus the only ways a half-orc could be received is by rape, either in a raid by one side on the other, or if slaves are taken.  It's a squicky idea, so it's not really something we've ever wanted to dwell on in the game, and the point is understood but not really discussed.  Half-orcs are also exceedingly rare, so again it doesn't come up much.

If you want a more nuanced orc in your game, sure, there are a lot of possibilities.  But going the traditional route there is no reason to make it complicated at all.

Greetings!

You know, I was thinking about this assertion by Box of Crayons;

The "they want our women" message written into a lot of lore is creepy as hell, but that's hardly the only contributor to why its creepy as hell. I could go on about how the way RPGs easily depict misogyny in an exploitative manner, but that's a whole other topic.


This critique is wholesale nonsense, taken entirely out of context, and pumped full of SJWism spin. The critique is mind boggling in its blindness and sweeping disregard of where the early inspirations for such writing and implications suggested of evil humanoids like Orcs throughout books and modules from the beginning of the hobby come from. Any good student of real-world history can recall numerous examples from the pages of history where warlike marauders from foreign lands invaded other kingdoms and lands--always, always, one of their main desires was the subjugation, capture, and plundering of the women of the conquered lands and peoples.

Muslim seaborne raids and invasions throughout the Mediterranean region--a huge target was the capture and enslavement of European women.

The Vikings savage raids throughout Ireland, Scotland, Britain, and other regions of Europe--they too, captured and enslaved conquered women en mass. They especially enjoyed capturing virgin nuns from monasteries and cloisters, as well as huge numbers of young farm girls. They were all eagerly carried off into the Viking's dragon ships to a certain doom.

The Mongols sweeping invasions of Eastern Europe, Russia, the Ukraine, Turkey, Persia, Central Asia, the Kwarazam Empire, and China, literally *millions* of women were marched off by the conquering Mongols as slaves.

The Mongols, Jin, and other invaders of China: In a BBC series, The Story of China, hosted by Historian Michael Wood, Wood goes into grim detail of when the barbarian invaders poured into the Northern Song Empire, and encircled and besieged the great northern capital--the savage barbarians demanded *women* Tens of thousands of them. The finest and most beautiful women of the empire were to be given into the invaders hands. The women of the royal household; the Emperor's court women; the thousands of dancers, and the 1500 women of the Emperor's orchestra--all were given to the conquering barbarians. Wood goes on to describe how such a sad and horrifying calamity it was for the Northern Song Empire, and its people. He said many of the women marched off into the camps of the surrounding barbarian armies chose to commit suicide rather than submit to the horrifying fate that awaited them.

The Germanic Barbarians invaded the Roman Empire. What do you think they were doing with all of the beautiful Roman women and girls that they captured in the tens and hundreds of thousands? I assure you, the invading Germanic barbarians were not kind, nor were they gentle.

The Roman invasions of everywhere. Indeed, the Roman Legions demonstrated the terrible price for opposing the empire. The Romans raped, conquered, and enslaved millions to the yoke of the empire. Along the way, foreign women, whether barbarian women from some tribe or region, or whether from some civilized kingdom--all were taken like ripe fruit by the conquering Roman Legions.

And history is full of many more examples, often in great detail, and frequently with primary sources. The Trojan War, too, was fought over a woman. Thus, the fear and threat of foreign barbarians or other kinds of invaders having a primary interest in plundering and enslaving your kingdom's women is an enormous historical reality, and a salient inspiration for the various implications embraced by the game books and writers over the years as to the focus and desires of savage, evil hordes of brutal, conquering humanoids.

There is nothing especially or even vaguely racist about such implications, nor does it have much specifically to do with any "colonizers". It is purely taken from real-world human history, of everyone's history, in every corner of the world, for thousands of years of recorded history, of warfare and conquest, and of raiding.

Evil Humanoids seek to invade, conquer, and plunder civilized lands.

YES. That definitely means that for the player characters and allied NPC's--the evil humanoid invaders certainly do "Want Our Women".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

BoxCrayonTales is not a SJW.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126183I'm a cynical condescending bastard who only sees the worst in people and looks forward to the apocalypse because I hate humanity and wishes it would go extinct.

And that's why you're perfect for this forum!

Humans will go extinct sooner than later, but what can we really expect from race of really fucked up upright monkeys? Just look at Shark's litany of human history...and remember that's all from the civilized part of our timeline compared to our 200,000 previous years of stone age behavior.

As modern humans, we want to look upon the Bronze Age as the "bad old time" that we've advanced and evolved from into "civilized" people. But that's not the truth. Most of our species' time on this planet was spent raping women and cooking babies. We're descended from cannibals!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126183I fully expected you guys to dismiss everything I said and dismiss me as a loony SJW who wants to steal your toys, demonize you as a crypto-fascist, and moralize over our silly little elf-games.

While some of your language and arguments have been used by actual loony SJWs, I do NOT believe that's who you are. You aren't demanding adherence to your ideology. You're just presenting your viewpoint. And you've repeatedly added the caveat that gamers who play differently than you are not racists nor evil. That's NOT the behavior of a SJW.

I don't overly disagree with much of what you said. However, I do think you have a very rosy perspective on the so-called "First Nations" people. They were Stone Age assholes, not mystical saints. They lost their land because technology wins wars and demographics are destiny, not because of any inherent evil in "colonizers". Most native tribes were conquerors and "colonizers" as well, like any Stone Age tribe, killing their competitors and taking their land. They are humans and behaved just like the rest.  

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126186Is Pac Man a vore fetish game?

What is a vore fetish?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126159I also remember what gary gygaxes response to the question was:

Take in the kids and educate them how to live well and kill their parents.

The Gygax quote I was thinking of in this thread was more along the lines of "Orcs can be converted to become Lawful.  And then you should slit their throats before their Chaotic nature has a chance to reassert itself, so that they'll still be Lawful when they die."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1126204What is a vore fetish?

"Vore" as in "carnivore".  A fetish for imagining that you're being eaten alive, frequently involving gigantic women who are large enough to pop your entire body into their mouth like an M&M and swallow you whole.