Quote from: jeff37923;1126121So, you deny dragging that tired SJW schtick of orcs are blacks into the conversation.

Greetings!

Jeff! Perhaps I can help here, my friend. From Omega's post, I didn't interpret that he was championing SJWism at all. He mentioned the Orcs=Rape; Orcs=Black People and then said "sooo. That must mean Orcs=Black Rapists? That's what these nuts are obviously claiming then."

He is clearly, to me, being sarcastic and mocking of the SJW idea that Orcs are really stand-ins for black people, and are thus a trope for all the horrible white racists in gaming to wantonly slaughter and subjugate.

I did not get the idea that Omega was approving of such jackass ideology, Jeff. Hopefully I have helped.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126113

This is what I got to say about noble orcs. Not all orcs gotta be evil but there is nothing wrong with magical creatures of pure evil.

Do we gotta write #notall for boogeymen? Do are demons good but pressured into being evil by society?

Greetings!

Just brilliant, Shrieking Banshee! Fucking hilarious! Very appropriate, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923;1126121So, you deny dragging that tired SJW schtick of orcs are blacks into the conversation.

Nice goalpost moving there sonny.

Reading comprehension is not one of your strong points lately is it?

Why yes I did drag that one out. Because yes they do drag that one out and because Yes the two claims combined paint a rather ugly picture of certain nuts out there who claim both this are true,

None of which has jack to do with your obsession that I claimed ALL SJWs say this.

Now move the goalposts again please because of course you will.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120If you think that my argument is incoherent because I prefer 40k's asexual space orks over Goblin Slayer's rapist goblins, then I don't know what else to say. Clearly I have failed to articulate myself in a coherent manner.

Here are a couple articles explaining the criticism of the rapist savages:
https://www.thefandomentals.com/evil-races-fantasy/
https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/6/30/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human

The latter even praises 40k's space orks.

I hope those articles can articulate the criticism in a better way than I can. I hope you will find them educational.

Those articles are hilariously bad. I'm especially amused at how badly they have to scrape to try and justify the accusations of "racism" involving fantasy creatures.

Quote from: SHARK;1126123I did not get the idea that Omega was approving of such jackass ideology, Jeff. Hopefully I have helped.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Jeffs in one of his periodic insane modes that can last months or more. Eventually the other Jeff will return. So chances of him responding well are about zero at this point. Hes out to pick a fight and it could have been any of us. I just call him out more when he flips out because having to deal with this RL with family suffering dementia, now in two cases fatal, had left my patience with him at less than zero.

I like talking with Jeff when hes sane. I have no tolerance for it when hes off his rocker.

Quote from: Omega;1126125Why yes I did drag that one out.

Nice to see that you are capable of manning up and admitting your mistakes, when cornered.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120If you think that my argument is incoherent because I prefer 40k's asexual space orks over Goblin Slayer's rapist goblins, then I don't know what else to say. Clearly I have failed to articulate myself in a coherent manner.

Here are a couple articles explaining the criticism of the rapist savages:
https://www.thefandomentals.com/evil-races-fantasy/
https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/6/30/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human

The latter even praises 40k's space orks.

I hope those articles can articulate the criticism in a better way than I can. I hope you will find them educational.

Your argument is incoherent because its all over the place and you keep moving the goal posts (you've been arguing non-stop about games portraying orcs as irredeemable monsters PCs feel no guilt slaughtering, but now you're pretending your ONLY issue has been their sexuality all along? BULLSHIT!), and no matter what you'll always find a way to complain and nitpick to keep whining. Case in point...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120The "noble savage" is a racist garbage trope and I dislike portraying orcs that way just as much as I dislike the born evil rapist horde.

Rampaging rapist orcs are bad. Noble savage orcs are also bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And those articles you posted simply make superficial comparisons between orcs and wartime propaganda, which obviously--assuming that a race of beings like traditional D&D orcs actually did exist--any information about them would have at least superficial similarities to wartime propaganda, cuz even if such propaganda is normally exaggerated in real life, in this case it presumably happens to be true. So are we not supposed to provide accurate information about a race that hypothetical does exist in a world out of fear of arousing distrust from easily offended people cuz that information looks like wartime propaganda despite (on this case) being true? Or are we supposed to change the "truth" of that race because you choose to take offense from it?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120To my knowledge this is only the case in deliberately mold-breaker settings like Eberron. In my survey of settings, the majority of the time the orcs behave like the goblins in Goblin Slayer.

Perhaps, but "monster races" have also become increasing prevalent in recent editions of D&D, and as far as I can tell orcs are rarely (if ever) explicitly portrayed as rapists in D&D products and the only real difference between them an 40K orks is that 40K orks are apparently asexual. Otherwise we're talking about the same thing, except you choose to like 40k orks for arbitrary reasons that contradict the diatribe you're written in most of these posts.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120I don't have a problem with roleplaying brutal violence including rape, genocide, infanticide, degloving, etc.

This entire thread suggests otherwise. But move those goal posts.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120Where I think it gets iffy is trying to justify murdering babies as morally good.

Which absolutely NO ONE has done, but keep arguing against points people never made. I eagerly await you twisting my bringing up Goblin Slayer pages ago as a tongue in cheek rebuke as proof positive I was justifying orc infanticide as a good thing.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120What purpose does that serve? Does it indicate maturity? Do we like the shock value?

It doesn't have to serve ANY purpose. But if you insist...

Traditional "Tolkienesque" Orcs are like the fomorians or similar mythological beings that represent the chaotic, destructive primal forces that threaten the harmonious order of civilization. They're a personification and embodiment of such forces. They're not supposed to be naturally evolved creatures with hopes and dreams, but personifications of chaos and depravity. They aren't "real" normal humanoid creatures, but symbolic entities that represent the mythological conflict between Order and Chaos I've often seen you bring up in other threads but obviously have absolutely ZERO understanding about.

Quote from: SHARK;1126123Greetings!

Jeff! Perhaps I can help here, my friend. From Omega's post, I didn't interpret that he was championing SJWism at all. He mentioned the Orcs=Rape; Orcs=Black People and then said "sooo. That must mean Orcs=Black Rapists? That's what these nuts are obviously claiming then."

He is clearly, to me, being sarcastic and mocking of the SJW idea that Orcs are really stand-ins for black people, and are thus a trope for all the horrible white racists in gaming to wantonly slaughter and subjugate.

I did not get the idea that Omega was approving of such jackass ideology, Jeff. Hopefully I have helped.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I understand that Omega was mocking the idea that orcs are blacks or black rapists. The conversation was about orcs being evil and not racism victims. I just didn't want the conversation to go down that particular rabbit hole. It has been done to death on this forum and not germaine to the conversation at hand. In short, he opened the door and it shouldn't have been opened.

Quote from: jeff37923;1126134I understand that Omega was mocking the idea that orcs are blacks or black rapists. The conversation was about orcs being evil and not racism victims. I just didn't want the conversation to go down that particular rabbit hole. It has been done to death on this forum and not germaine to the conversation at hand. In short, he opened the door and it shouldn't have been opened.

What's the SAN damage on that?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1126120If you tThis is a false dichotomy, tho. As least in the monster manual, orcs aren't demons.

And if they where that would make killing them OK? Geeze how immoral of you man. As long as something LOOKS like you and shares your traits its worthy of life but if it doesn't its worth being slaughtered?

Your ethics make me sick! Sick I say!

QuoteI don't want peer pressure to force me

But peer pressuring others with guilt and association with historical atrocities and comparing them to historical propaganda is aight? While at least I said that its fine to have noble orcs, I found the notion on getting caught up with moralizing on fantastic fiction stupid, you where the one that said its allegorical to propaganda.

Everything can be tied to somekind of propaganda, or abuse, or form of suffering. I don't make all orcs evil in my game and in my current game Its currently set in a 'Post Dark Lord' Orc country, and how the orcs are dealing with this new political situation.

But this whiny preachy 'Think about the orc children!' stuff just makes me really annoyed.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126142And if they where that would make killing them OK? Geeze how immoral of you man. As long as something LOOKS like you and shares your traits its worthy of life but if it doesn't its worth being slaughtered?

Your ethics make me sick! Sick I say!



But peer pressuring others with guilt and association with historical atrocities and comparing them to historical propaganda is aight? While at least I said that its fine to have noble orcs, I found the notion on getting caught up with moralizing on fantastic fiction stupid, you where the one that said its allegorical to propaganda.

Everything can be tied to somekind of propaganda, or abuse, or form of suffering. I don't make all orcs evil in my game and in my current game Its currently set in a 'Post Dark Lord' Orc country, and how the orcs are dealing with this new political situation.

But this whiny preachy 'Think about the orc children!' stuff just makes me really annoyed.

Greetings!

I agree, Shrieking Banshee. Your commentary opposed to Box of Crayons has me thinking about his crazy interpretation. Why all the tears about Orcs? What about Lizardmen, and Snakemen, and...Ratmen?

Are these savage, often primitive and bestial races, are they really just misunderstood as well? Are they as races, deeply infused with the same kind of moral agency as Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings?

And while we're at it, in this fantastic, moralistic and egalitarian world, *hypothetically*--if any or all of these *monstrous races* are morally equal in every way to humanity and so on, then really, what makes them genuinely different? If they are not genuinely different, at a fundamental level--then really they are just humans with a different coloured hat.

From that, if they are not really different on a fundamental level, and they share the same kind of complex moral agency as Humans--then why not just get rid of them, and have everyone just be different colours and tribes of humans.

Exactly. Then the fucking SJW's would be whining about how savage and misogynistic and racist everyone is to *fellow humans* in the fantasy game world. Whaa, whaa, whaa! and on and on they would go, writing deep, bloviating articles and thought-pieces criticizing how everyone is a bunch of racist, misogynistic, Imperialist and Colonialists!:D

It never ends!:D

On a different angle, I don't mind some Orcs or whoever not always being evil. That's all good. The crying and vilification of those that *enjoy* or *prefer* using Orcs as evil monsters--amongst the other monstrous humanoid races--is what is wrong, and I find such quite annoying and self-righteous.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Spike;1126137What's the SAN damage on that?

I would say 1d2 / 0

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126142And if they where that would make killing them OK? Geeze how immoral of you man. As long as something LOOKS like you and shares your traits its worthy of life but if it doesn't its worth being slaughtered?

Your ethics make me sick! Sick I say!



But peer pressuring others with guilt and association with historical atrocities and comparing them to historical propaganda is aight? While at least I said that its fine to have noble orcs, I found the notion on getting caught up with moralizing on fantastic fiction stupid, you where the one that said its allegorical to propaganda.

Everything can be tied to somekind of propaganda, or abuse, or form of suffering. I don't make all orcs evil in my game and in my current game Its currently set in a 'Post Dark Lord' Orc country, and how the orcs are dealing with this new political situation.

But this whiny preachy 'Think about the orc children!' stuff just makes me really annoyed.

Orc children?

Nits become lice. When do you want to deal with the problem?

Quote from: RandyB;1126146Orc children?

Nits become lice. When do you want to deal with the problem?

I also remember what gary gygaxes response to the question was:

Take in the kids and educate them how to live well and kill their parents.

I think the guy might be an objectivist. Led to a fun game.

From the tabletop rape of Elspeths rpg characters.