This thread is inspired by a throwaway quote in the Adam Koebel thread:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125669There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape. It disgusts me because it is so tasteless and exploitative. The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy. It's doubly ironic when these publishers claim to be progressive.

I find it interesting that "half-orcs-by-rape" have become such a default assumption of D&D worlds, so much so that it is often specifically mentioned as their usual origin story. It is also one of the D&D elements which are typically found to be "problematic" by critics; that you have a whole player subrace of, basically, rape babies. Quit correct that it would be tasteless.

The reason this comes out of left field is because it didn't seem to be that way at all when we started playing (early 1990s). The assumption was simply that some people just have seriously low standards - not unlike real life - and there would certainly be many more people like this than rapists. Half-orcs would mostly result from drunken flings at the tavern, prostitution, or just a particularly bad taste that was looked down on, but nevertheless happened. This actually cut both ways: one of Hungary's formative fantasy novels featured a half-orc protagonist (lovingly described as "reeking of the smell of chicken guts" in his favourite old cloak), who finds human women to be mostly uninteresting, and elves almost revolting in their purity, while he has the hots for a female half-orc assassin (who ends up betraying him multiple times, which only adds to the romance). At any rate, there was no great assumption that half-orcs would by default result from raiding orcs forcing themselves on hapless human women, but something that would just result every so often from humans and orcs living in close proximity, mostly in seedier parts (like cities with a lot of travellers passing through). And while the books don't put much emphasis on the matter, said half-orc is the offspring of a priestess of chaos, who deliberately bore a half-orc child to fulfill a prophecy.

There is, also, quite a leap of assumption that it is an orc-males-and-human-women issue. Perhaps a human man might also feel affection for an orc woman, or at least have a fondness for the brain soup Ugglina the Orc is cooking. Perhaps orcish strength and resilience are sought commodities on certain frontiers, which are valued over physical beauty. Or, as it happens, one or both parents are rich and/or powerful, and it was a marriage of convenience, or a diplomatic arrangement. Sure, orcs smell, but then so do barbarians.

I would not say this rules out rape. In lawless and violent locales, it may be a horrible fact of life (and if you think humans would be above raping orc females, you have more faith in humanity than I do). It is hard to have a plausible world where horrible crimes don't happen every so often. But even beyond the possibility, something about the idea that half-orcs=rape all the time, every time, strikes me as both an ugly assumption, and one that, honestly, betrays a lack of imagination.

Another issue was that all the evil elements in D&D also were to have no redeeming qualities imo. So half-orcs being from an evil race had to be cartoony evil with some screwed up elements. Take a look at FR and the Zhentarim. Up until 3E they were a prime example. An evil organization that was foiled at every turn because the higher ups wanted it so. Bane instead of leading his followers was busy trying increase the divide between Divine and Arcane spellcasters within the Zhentarim for shits and giggles. Which made no sense Bane wants to conquer Faerun and is undermining his own organization. Along came 3E and that removed that nonsense. I may just remove half-orcs and make them a subset of orcs.

Sometime between 2nd edition and 3rd, orcs went from "Pig headed cannon fodder" to "Green skinned warriors". I don't imagine the earlier types got many dates. the latter more fit your description of maybe associating with other humanoids.

So there's also the factor that the definition of 'orc' has evolved over the editions.

I thought they originated in the breeding pits of the Dark Lord, certainly in Tolkien. Made sense when orcs were Faceless Minions of Evil. 'Mummy Orc and Daddy Human loved each other Very Much' works better for World of Warcraft type orcs.

Quote from: Melan;1125731https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2017/04/blog-smell-of-chicken-guts-unlikely.html

Hopefully this isn't too off topic: Do you happen to know if any of these books have been translated to English? I've been looking around and not finding them, but I would love to read them. Cheers

Greetings!

Excellent topic, Melan! I sympathize with your frustration at the whole "Half Orcs are the product of rape all the time!" thing. However, I would submit that in a dark and brutal world, such rape would be a fairly significant occurrence. (Such rape, as you noted, not being the sole proviso of Orcs, but also humans raping Orcs!)

In my own World of Thandor, I have rape being the origin of about 10-30%, based on region and social and political environment. In that I also include slavery, as well as prostitution, which is common in urban cities, but also fairly common in larger rural communities as well. The majority of Half Orcs in Thandor however, originate from other mated pairs of Half Orc parents. Well, most are mated pairs and couples, but the rough nature of Half Orcs means that within the Half Orc community, such as it is, wherever they happen to establish a sub-culture within their own communities, or within a Human or Orc community, there are also a good deal of prostitution and orgies going on, and serial couplings, with single Half Orc mommies entertaining numerous "boyfriends" in sequence. Relationships lasting a few weeks or a few months is very common, thus many Half Orc children are bred by single Half Orc mommies. Many Half Orc women *love* the "Badboys", Ruffians, rugged mercenaries, tribal warriors, as well as the common hard-drinking, cigarette-smoking labourer and craftsman. There is also a good attraction to the traveling caravan merchants, the wagon-drivers and caravan guards. Within the larger cities, there's an additional subset of Half Orc women that are deeply attracted to the rough, strict, Watchmen, Bounty Hunters, Witch Hunters, Road Wardens, and other members of law enforcement, and the hard machinery of "The State."

Some of these relationships grow into stable, disciplined, committed relationships, though probably half of them or more are unfortunately more hedonistic, emotional, and temporary. This then gives rise to more emotionally damaged Half Orc children with trainloads of emotional and social problems being bred, which then grow up to be just like their Half Orc parents. Many Half Orcs *like* living in rough wagon parks, where yes, they breed like crazy. It is an ongoing cycle of harshness, dysfunction, hedonism, and violence. Many Half Orcs grow to adulthood thoroughly devoted to hedonism, and "living in the Now." They love violence, and see violence as an excellent solution to most any kind of problem. Many Half Orcs hold little regard for "morality" and otherwise being "law abiding." They often see the system as something to exploit and get their juice from, and squeeze whatever benefits they can get away with. The important idea is almost anything is good to do--just don't get caught. They often live in a harsh, survival-mode environment, socially, where the strong, and the cunning, and the sly and the manipulative people are the ones that get ahead and win. The weak, the naïve, the straight-laced law-abiding folks--they get left in the mud, as victims, as suckers. They *deserved* to be beaten; they deserved to be robbed; they deserved to be scammed, hustled, and manipulated.

In such a harsh, brutal world of survival and self-interest, Half Orcs seldom embrace relationship fidelity and loyalty. Hedonism and lascivious sexual relations are *the norm*. It is what most Half Orcs growing up witness their mommies doing, as well as their fathers, or any other males around their family and neighborhood. Other Half Orc women are just as mercenary and promiscuous as the Half Orc men. They jump on whoever the passing shiny sexy male who has *Bam*. Social charisma, a muscular, hard physique, a supply of gold, and the respect of other Half Orc men in the neighborhood. Them having the desire of other Half Orc women, all of that goes into who the typical Half Orc woman finds super attractive and irresistible. Does he dress good? Does he have weapons, and muscles? Is he strong and ruthless? Is he successful, and does he have gold, resources, and goodies? Half Orc women want to be his number one cupcake!

Of course, there is a minority of the typical Half Orc population that is super religious and tending towards deep superstition, but is otherwise firmly committed to family unity, individual discipline, social order, and are deeply and fervently religious and spiritual. These Half Orcs *love* order, unity, and strict discipline. They often serve in the military, law enforcement, as mercenaries, as well as in religious organizations and institutions, and are also passionate about being professional artisans, learning skills, and embracing trade and business adventures.

That is the world that Half Orcs come from, often, in the World of Thandor.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Really orcs are infinitely divisible by two.  So you also get quarter orcs and eighth orcs.  They get smaller as you divide them of course.  It's believed that orcs are made up of cells with a sort of genetic memory that recongeal into the same shape no matter how you subdivide them.  Some orcs can even divide and regroup at will.

In my setting, a breeding program by an evil wizard who was trying to make soldiers as strong as orcs and as smart as humans. Unfortunately he got the opposite, only slightly smarter than their orc cousins and not really any stronger than a healthy, athletic human.  He tossed them aside and left them to fend for themselves. They wandered in semi-nomadic groups settling wherever they could, eventually multiplying until they were a proper race.

Only after abandoning them did the wizard discover they possessed two distinct advantages over orcs. They could move around and do stuff by day as easily as by night, and they could ride horses (in my setting, horses are instinctively afraid of orcs).

I've always gone with the low standards theory.  Working at Walmart I have noticed that the fattest, surliest, unpleasantest women you can possibly imagine can still have a brood of children (even though you don't understand how they could even physically have sex being so obese). And then you have the drugged up tweaker men who look likey were taken from the outskirts of Dunnich (or Mayberry),  

Compared to either of them a half orc would look positively attractive.  And that's not discounting fetishes.  Alien porn is a thing. There's a whole subgenre of literary porn (aimed at women) where human women are kidnapped and raped by monstrous aliens and used for breeding stock. It's not a huge market, but it's one.

In my own game world, most half orcs come from adventuring bands wiping out the male orcs in a band, leaving the females to fend for themselves, and who end up going to mining camps and such on the outskirts of civilization where they are welcomed by the mostly entirely male settlements.

History is FULL of half-insertconquerorshere.  I rather just make half orcs orcs or a variant orc, but I dont get too hung up on the origins.   A gm deciding a half orc needs to hear details on his/her conception...no.

Quote from: JeremyR;1125750I've always gone with the low standards theory.  Working at Walmart I have noticed that the fattest, surliest, unpleasantest women you can possibly imagine can still have a brood of children (even though you don't understand how they could even physically have sex being so obese). And then you have the drugged up tweaker men who look likey were taken from the outskirts of Dunnich (or Mayberry),  

Compared to either of them a half orc would look positively attractive.  And that's not discounting fetishes.  Alien porn is a thing. There's a whole subgenre of literary porn (aimed at women) where human women are kidnapped and raped by monstrous aliens and used for breeding stock. It's not a huge market, but it's one.

In my own game world, most half orcs come from adventuring bands wiping out the male orcs in a band, leaving the females to fend for themselves, and who end up going to mining camps and such on the outskirts of civilization where they are welcomed by the mostly entirely male settlements.

Its funny you mention this, i heard from multiple sources, the lady writing a series of bigfoot porn makes over a half million a year.....so there is certainly a market.

In the game I want to set up, orcs are a spiritual infection.  A cross between the Gotha virus from GURPS Horror and actual demonic possession.  Half orcs are survivors of the infection and are technically held up by most religions as a triumph of the soul over the abyss.  However, people are dicks and there is still a lot of bias against them...assuming that any one of them could go right back to being a howling death cult fanatic: all cracked skin, red eyes, and blasphemous madness.

I never liked the sci-fi episodes that had a transformative retrovirus that gets completely fixed at the end of the episode.  Half orcs are cured in one way or another, but they done go back to normal.

I don't have them in my games (where I'm the GM), at most I allow half Elves/Human, Dwarfs, Halflings can't interbreed among themselves nor humans or Elves. Orcs, Goblins and other fuglies are 100% evil demon spawn or wizardry induced mutations, maybe even aliens from another plane/planet.

It has to do with my general dislike for "lets see who can build the most special snowflake character!" and my deeply rooted belief that most players end up playing a human in a rubber suit.

Alternately I've heard liquor is generally involved.  Lots and lots of liquor.  Imagine all those afterwork parties at Orthanc.  Heck the fighting Urk Hai call Sauruman 'old man'.  Think about it.

I gotta be honest with you, the default assumption about the origin of half-orcs from anyone I've ever played with since very early on when I was introduced into the hobby has always been that they're the product of rape. And I've been playing since 1990. And given the standard D&D background of orcs as irredeemable evil raiders not accepted in ANY civilized land I can see few alternatives to that origin, at least not as a likely scenario. They're not even allowed as PCs--that's how vile they're considered to be.

Unless we're talking about WOW-style cool looking noble savage orcs there's little chance that a half-orc would be the product of anything other than rape. You can't have accidental prostitute babies when orcs aren't even allowed in civilized lands. But I suppose it depends on how orcs are portrayed in your campaign.

I have no issue with noble savage "beastmen" orcs if that's how they're established in the campaign (and I've portrayed them as such sometimes), but that's not how they're traditionally portrayed in the game or literature. Tolkien's orcs were not even natural creatures, but the product of dark magic that twisted and deformed them into monsters bred for killing--I'm not even sure they could reproduce.