Quote from: Jam The MF on December 10, 2021, 05:54:14 PM

Quote from: Blankman on December 09, 2021, 11:40:47 AM
For TSR/OSR D&D I like a few different options.
3D6 straight down then optionally swap two stats (gives some ability to choose a particular stat to be good at).
3D6 twice choose the better roll straight down the line (gives somewhat better stats but still has randomness as to which stats are good for any given character).
3D6 straight down the line but ability to lower some scores to raise others, Basic D&D style.

For other games with random generation of stats it will depend, but usually the standard given option.

One of your suggestions has caught my interest.

Roll 2 Sets of 3d6, and keep the highest score; Straight Down the Line.

3d6 Straight Down the Line, rarely creates a character I'd want to play myself.  I hate to force that upon someone else; so I've used 4d6 Drop the Lowest, Straight Down the Line, instead.  I think I can buy into Roll 2 Sets of 3d6, and keep the highest score; Straight Down the Line.  Good Suggestion.

I set about last night, rolling up 4 character arrays each; of 3d6 Straight Down the Line, 2 Sets of 3d6 and Keep the Best,, and 4d6 Drop the Lowest.  Of course, the dice got hot when I rolled 3d6 Straight Down the Line.  2 of the 4 characters I created, were very playable.  As soon as I tried to prove my point......  Ha!!!

I rolled 4 Character Stat Sets; using 2 Sets of 3d6, Keep the Highest, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Fighter
16
15
15
10
13
12

I roll 4 Character Stat Sets; using 4d6, Drop the Lowest, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Magic User
12
12
12
17
10
12

I rolled 4 Character Stat Sets; using 3d6, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Cleric, or Thief
14
16
12
13
17
9

Perhaps this proves something, and perhaps it doesn't?

Depends on the game really...

If i'm playing BX D&D i usually roll 3d6 in order... the game is far more forgiving with bonuses (+1 at 13) and it fits the flavor of the game. 

For 1e AD&D (the campaign i currently have) we did 4d6, dropping the lowest, which works better for 1e AD&D where you won't see any benefit until
you hit about 15 on average (and at least 2 15's are recommended in ye olde DMG).  One of my players is having a grand old time with his 5 wisdom
fighter and his dubious choices that result from it.  I remember we always used to do that back when i played in the 80's, though we used to reroll 1's
way back then...

Have tried the 12 sets of 3d6 and pick the best before and that works pretty well too, just takes awhile.  I roll up batches of NPC's for the campaign
world doing that.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 12, 2021, 02:28:16 AM
I rolled 4 Character Stat Sets; using 2 Sets of 3d6, Keep the Highest, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Fighter
16
15
15
10
13
12

I roll 4 Character Stat Sets; using 4d6, Drop the Lowest, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Magic User
12
12
12
17
10
12

I rolled 4 Character Stat Sets; using 3d6, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Cleric, or Thief
14
16
12
13
17
9

Perhaps this proves something, and perhaps it doesn't?

Yes, it proves you use old school terms like "magic-user", but don't use one of the old school methods for ordering stats. To me, that's a half-elf fighter/magic-user/cleric, a thief, and a magic-user.

That last character is definitely a hot roll. I did a quick Monte Carlo simulation of 3d6 in order, and only 2% of the characters had a 17+ and a 16+.

More generally, I think the stat bonuses breakpoints influence how people view the viability of characters. When using the AD&D method (varies but typically 15 = +1... 18 = +4), you might need a couple 15+ stats to feel exceptional. Conversely, a single 13 can feel viable when using the B/X method (13 = +1, 16 = +2, 18 = +3). When bonuses are easier to achieve and there's less difference between a 10 and an 18, 3d6 in order feels fine to most people. You'll typically get a bonus or two, and someone who rolls remarkably well will have an advantage but not an insurmountable one. But when you need an exceptional roll to even get a +1, and when a very high stat means more (in AD&D the bonuses aren't just higher, they affect more things, including basic character limits like the highest level spell an MU can cast), people tend to gravitate toward more generous methods.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 12, 2021, 02:28:16 AM

Perhaps this proves something, and perhaps it doesn't?

Statistically insignificant, and the math will already tell you more precisely what a well-run Monte Carlo simulation with statistically significant volume would confirm.  Rolling up a few characters tells you exactly nothing.

I kinda like the idea of Straight Down the Line, but you get to pick one stat to roll [5d6 drop lowest 2] and two stats to roll [4d6 drop lowest]. The remaining three stats are just 3d6.

Quote from: Pat on December 12, 2021, 05:50:49 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 12, 2021, 02:28:16 AM
I rolled 4 Character Stat Sets; using 2 Sets of 3d6, Keep the Highest, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Fighter
16
15
15
10
13
12

I roll 4 Character Stat Sets; using 4d6, Drop the Lowest, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Magic User
12
12
12
17
10
12

I rolled 4 Character Stat Sets; using 3d6, Straight Down the Line.  Best Character: Cleric, or Thief
14
16
12
13
17
9

Perhaps this proves something, and perhaps it doesn't?

Yes, it proves you use old school terms like "magic-user", but don't use one of the old school methods for ordering stats. To me, that's a half-elf fighter/magic-user/cleric, a thief, and a magic-user.

That last character is definitely a hot roll. I did a quick Monte Carlo simulation of 3d6 in order, and only 2% of the characters had a 17+ and a 16+.

More generally, I think the stat bonuses breakpoints influence how people view the viability of characters. When using the AD&D method (varies but typically 15 = +1... 18 = +4), you might need a couple 15+ stats to feel exceptional. Conversely, a single 13 can feel viable when using the B/X method (13 = +1, 16 = +2, 18 = +3). When bonuses are easier to achieve and there's less difference between a 10 and an 18, 3d6 in order feels fine to most people. You'll typically get a bonus or two, and someone who rolls remarkably well will have an advantage but not an insurmountable one. But when you need an exceptional roll to even get a +1, and when a very high stat means more (in AD&D the bonuses aren't just higher, they affect more things, including basic character limits like the highest level spell an MU can cast), people tend to gravitate toward more generous methods.

I love to see +3 in a primary ability, but a +2 is good enough.

I also like to avoid having any negatives, in the big 3 saving throws.

I'm sorry, but was my group the only group that played with magic items?  Part of the fun of 1e (AD&D) was the boosting of characters via magic.  Gauntlets of ogre power?  Items to add Int, Dex, Chr, etc.  One of the greatest flaws in the modern editions has been the increase of stats from leveling up.  Magic items have lost a chunk of their utility and flair, because what good is an item that raises your str to 19 if you're already getting a 20 by fourth level (because if you're playing a class where str is vital, you're boosting str.  If not, then you don't gain much from a str magic item).  Your 13 str fighter becomes a different character with a belt of giant strength, so the 13 is only a limit if you are playing in a low magic campaign, or one where your DM doesn't allow you to research the locations of legendary items (some of our most memorable campaigns have been questing for the components or locations for items of power).  Even most published modules from that era sprinkled items within that would significantly boost characters...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 12, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
I'm sorry, but was my group the only group that played with magic items?  Part of the fun of 1e (AD&D) was the boosting of characters via magic.  Gauntlets of ogre power?  Items to add Int, Dex, Chr, etc.  One of the greatest flaws in the modern editions has been the increase of stats from leveling up.  Magic items have lost a chunk of their utility and flair, because what good is an item that raises your str to 19 if you're already getting a 20 by fourth level (because if you're playing a class where str is vital, you're boosting str.  If not, then you don't gain much from a str magic item).  Your 13 str fighter becomes a different character with a belt of giant strength, so the 13 is only a limit if you are playing in a low magic campaign, or one where your DM doesn't allow you to research the locations of legendary items (some of our most memorable campaigns have been questing for the components or locations for items of power).  Even most published modules from that era sprinkled items within that would significantly boost characters...

Good point.  I loathe most things about 5e, but that's one of the things I hate most, constantly boosting ability scores to ridiculous levels.  Since we don't play 5e anyhow, our players are happy to find that girdle of giant strength or whatever.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 12, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
I'm sorry, but was my group the only group that played with magic items?  Part of the fun of 1e (AD&D) was the boosting of characters via magic.  Gauntlets of ogre power?  Items to add Int, Dex, Chr, etc.  One of the greatest flaws in the modern editions has been the increase of stats from leveling up.  Magic items have lost a chunk of their utility and flair, because what good is an item that raises your str to 19 if you're already getting a 20 by fourth level (because if you're playing a class where str is vital, you're boosting str.  If not, then you don't gain much from a str magic item).  Your 13 str fighter becomes a different character with a belt of giant strength, so the 13 is only a limit if you are playing in a low magic campaign, or one where your DM doesn't allow you to research the locations of legendary items (some of our most memorable campaigns have been questing for the components or locations for items of power).  Even most published modules from that era sprinkled items within that would significantly boost characters...

Magic Items are fair game, but D&D 3.5 and 4E made them pretty much a head to toe requirement; which caused me to recoil a bit.  I'm still down for having magic items, as long as it doesn't turn into a trip to Magic Mart.  Magic Swords, Staffs, Boots of Levitation, Boots of Breaking, Gauntlets, Helms, etc. are just fine; in moderation.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 12, 2021, 10:56:39 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 12, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
I'm sorry, but was my group the only group that played with magic items?  Part of the fun of 1e (AD&D) was the boosting of characters via magic.  Gauntlets of ogre power?  Items to add Int, Dex, Chr, etc.  One of the greatest flaws in the modern editions has been the increase of stats from leveling up.  Magic items have lost a chunk of their utility and flair, because what good is an item that raises your str to 19 if you're already getting a 20 by fourth level (because if you're playing a class where str is vital, you're boosting str.  If not, then you don't gain much from a str magic item).  Your 13 str fighter becomes a different character with a belt of giant strength, so the 13 is only a limit if you are playing in a low magic campaign, or one where your DM doesn't allow you to research the locations of legendary items (some of our most memorable campaigns have been questing for the components or locations for items of power).  Even most published modules from that era sprinkled items within that would significantly boost characters...

Magic Items are fair game, but D&D 3.5 and 4E made them pretty much a head to toe requirement; which caused me to recoil a bit.  I'm still down for having magic items, as long as it doesn't turn into a trip to Magic Mart.  Magic Swords, Staffs, Boots of Levitation, Boots of Breaking, Gauntlets, Helms, etc. are just fine; in moderation.

Well, 3.5 and 4e introduced the idea of increasing stats every few levels.  So it's no surprise that they would change the role of magic items in the game, now that they invalidated the original utility of them...

Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 06:20:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 12, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
I'm sorry, but was my group the only group that played with magic items?  Part of the fun of 1e (AD&D) was the boosting of characters via magic.  Gauntlets of ogre power?  Items to add Int, Dex, Chr, etc.  One of the greatest flaws in the modern editions has been the increase of stats from leveling up.  Magic items have lost a chunk of their utility and flair, because what good is an item that raises your str to 19 if you're already getting a 20 by fourth level (because if you're playing a class where str is vital, you're boosting str.  If not, then you don't gain much from a str magic item).  Your 13 str fighter becomes a different character with a belt of giant strength, so the 13 is only a limit if you are playing in a low magic campaign, or one where your DM doesn't allow you to research the locations of legendary items (some of our most memorable campaigns have been questing for the components or locations for items of power).  Even most published modules from that era sprinkled items within that would significantly boost characters...

Good point.  I loathe most things about 5e, but that's one of the things I hate most, constantly boosting ability scores to ridiculous levels.  Since we don't play 5e anyhow, our players are happy to find that girdle of giant strength or whatever.

I think that's an artifact from 3E, where (a) you got a stat bonus for every 2 points above 10 in an attribute, and (b) those stat bonuses were very much necessary. 5E actually does throttle it back slightly, since PC attributes are capped at 20.

That being said, in 1E/2E pushing your attributes above 18 was a big deal, since it often gave you additional abilities (immunity to certain illusions, slow regeneration, etc).

Bumping up your stats probably got its inception in AD&D as that introduced alot of ways to improve your stats if one could lay hands on them. Tomes and Wishes are the two main ones.

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2021, 08:39:35 PM
Bumping up your stats probably got its inception in AD&D as that introduced alot of ways to improve your stats if one could lay hands on them. Tomes and Wishes are the two main ones.

Which is totally different from building stat increases into character leveling. Which is why low stats were not as crippling in a game with decent magic item finds, and made magic items totally different from their feel in the later editions...

In our games, we would roll 3d6 36 times. Six rows of six columns and then pick the best line.