Quote from: AxesnOrcs;843574A smidgen of verisimilitude by preventing something that is to an extent actually possible in the real world? KEK

Obvious troll is obvious

Quote from: Moracai;843583Obvious troll is obvious

No, I just think you are something of a jackass for over-riding a rule to fit your personal, and erroneous, sense of verisimilitude.

https://vimeo.com/13634653

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;843585No, I just think you are something of a jackass for over-riding a rule to fit your personal, and erroneous, sense of verisimilitude.

https://vimeo.com/13634653

If that dude fell into the ocean off the site of a boat, he'd drown in about two seconds.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;843585No, I just think you are something of a jackass for over-riding a rule to fit your personal, and erroneous, sense of verisimilitude.

https://vimeo.com/13634653

Isn't the GM's job to be the authority on such things? If the GM hasn't seen certain YouTube spectable-demonstration videos (or has and still doesn't think it's reasonable in the game situation), it seems to me it's exactly what he's supposed to do, to provide the game universe's answer to how well certain tactics work or not, and to not give in to willful players who think they're right or not, even if it turns out eventually maybe they had a good point.

(Though when I do this, I try to stick to saying what is or isn't possible in the specific situation, rather than getting into a discussion about what is or isn't theoretically possible. I'd go with "Your character is sure he's going to sink to the bottom if he tries to swim in his armor." If the player insists, then roll dice and "It's not working! You're going to sink to the bottom unless you turn back now!" rather than "No one could ever swim in full plate.")

I think this GM also explained that even in the demo, the guy who did swim in armor said he thought he'd sink in chain, and this GM says full plate in his world means plate, chain and (soaked when swimming) padding, so it sounds like he's not even proven wrong.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;843585No, I just think you are something of a jackass for over-riding a rule to fit your personal, and erroneous, sense of verisimilitude.

https://vimeo.com/13634653

What the fuck, man?!

You are linking to a video that has been linked to previously on this thread, with a link to the relevant discussion on armory forum, where the maker of that video said that it would be impossible to swim in a mail, which happens to be part of a full plate.

You seriously need to practice your reading skills...

Edit - I'm done with this line of discussion. Anybody eager to prove me wrong can go jump off a ship in a properly fastened metal armor.

Quote from: Moracai;843609What the fuck, man?!

You are linking to a video that has been linked to previously on this thread, with a link to the relevant discussion on armory forum, where the maker of that video said that it would be impossible to swim in a mail, which happens to be part of a full plate.

You seriously need to practice your reading skills...

Edit - I'm done with this line of discussion. Anybody eager to prove me wrong can go jump off a ship in a properly fastened metal armor.

A full plate harness is not worn over mail. It is worn over an arming doublet, which may have mail voiders sewn to the inside of the joints. But I am so sorry to bring up facts.

There is an accord from the conquest of Cyprus in the third crusade about an English nobleman fleeing to his ship while saracen archers shot at him. He jumped into the water, swam to the boat, and climbed upwards while being under attack. Medieval reports like these aren't particularly reliable, but at least to the contemporaries, the whole 'swimming in armor' thing seemed not completely implausible.

We have video evidence of people wearing some armour swimming a small distance, and historical accounts of people crossing rivers in full armour (whatever they mean by that).

Most of the accounts I've read of people who've worn armour don't say you'd sink immediately, they typically say you'd struggle and get exhausted really quickly, so you could maybe swim a few feet before sinking. It's not an "absolutely not" but "maybe a little way but I'm not trying it".

And the d20 rules actually cover this pretty well. DC 10 to swim in calm water, double the ACP, so full plate is -12. So someone untrained wearing armour is going to sink like a stone (even with a strength bonus).

But, with a good strength (half-orc barbarian Strength 20 +5), all the ranks into swim, so +5 at level 1, we're up to 5+5-12=-2. So we need to roll a 12 to swim for one round. That's a 45% chance of swimming for 6 seconds (20'). That pretty much matches with what the experts are saying. Chances of swimming for 30 seconds is 1.8%. Not high, but sometimes possible. Chance of swimming for a minute is 0.03%, which is unlikely. They'd tire quickly, as predicted.

So I'm not saying it's easy, even for someone who's the strongest half-orc in the tribe, who's been swimming their entire life. A good con and they might be able to hold their breath and keep going underwater for a bit until they reach the anchor and can climb up. A minute at half speed is 160'. Far enough to reach an anchored ship? I don't know how far out they typically stay. But possibly enough to give it a try.

Now factor in that armour designed to trap air as a floatation device *cough* +10 magic bonus to swim, a higher level half-orc barbarian who's stronger than just about any human who's ever lived, and who's really pissed off, then they're managing it if it's still water, but still failing if it's rough.

Frankly someone who's dedicated that much effort to being good at swimming and has magic to help them damn well deserves to be able to make it to a boat anchored off shore in calm waters.

Oh for fuck's sake. My own curiosity led me back to this discussion

Batavi dudes were famous for crossing rivers in armor, but they were probably using some kind of flotation devices.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_%28Germanic_tribe%29

The armor used back in those days didn't resemble anything like a knight's armor though.

What Beagle mentioned seems interesting. I tried searching stuff from 3rd crusade Cyprys, but didn't find that one. Anyone feel like they have better luck?

Anyways, as for the actual situation at the game table, the players just said that they'll use some other method, and the whole party got safely to the ship without any rolls. There was like a 2 second pause in the game because of my ruling.

Off topic but a denser being like a dwarf or orc might have a harder time swimming. Could be the reason for the tales of water being deadly to ogres or trolls. They simply cant swim being so dense.

but really. Whatever fits your campaign. Ive seen some where dwarves could not swim at all and sank like stones.

Back on topic.

Another one the DM for the game I am playing in overrode was the whole splitting of some of the armor feats into two. Such that you had to blow two feats to get certain bonuses. Shield mastery was the main case as it pertained to my characters shield use. That and the feat changed somewhat from the playtest. minor to be sure and only an issue for fringe cases. I am ok with things as they ended aside from the removal of shield mastery from being able to attack. We added that back in.

Quote from: Moracai;843491'Swimming' a whopping 10 feet with head under water the whole time isn't what I would actually call swimming. Also, what I count as a full plate has padding and chain under the plates. That dude did not have a full plate. A field plate at best.

My ruling stands.

I myself would allow it at the D&D rules granularity  especially since anyone over 6th level or so is pushing superhuman and the rules are pretty punishing as is. Also full plate is IMO, YMMV something like a Milanese harness and doesn't include chain under it. That combination certainly was known and is possible but its non standard and given decent plate, utterly redundant. A good harness would stop basically any weapons except specialized armor piercers  or attacks to weak spots anyway.

However In his own game, the GM is always right and its a perfectly reasonable ruling.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;843690I myself would allow it at the D&D rules granularity  especially since anyone over 6th level or so is pushing superhuman and the rules are pretty punishing as is.

I agree. I ran that game as an E6 variant. The one that puts the levelcap at 6th level (only feats are gained after that). When starting that pirate-themed campaign, I said to the players that nearly everyone uses light or medium armor onboard ships. Doing otherwise would be having a deathwish. I guess that the player wanted to test my resolve on those words I made nearly a year earlier.

In Traveller, I routinely over-ride the variable jump time rules.  Mainly because they weren't there when I started back in '77.

Usually, I specify a jump takes exactly 7 x 24 hours = 168 hours; navigation skill can be applied to reduce that.  Also if extra time is taken, then a fleet navigator, based on skill level, can get everyone in the task force at the destination together.

Just one rule as written that I dislike.

Quote from: Moracai;843702I agree. I ran that game as an E6 variant. The one that puts the levelcap at 6th level (only feats are gained after that). When starting that pirate-themed campaign, I said to the players that nearly everyone uses light or medium armor onboard ships. Doing otherwise would be having a deathwish. I guess that the player wanted to test my resolve on those words I made nearly a year earlier.

I like E6 best of all D&D variations  save maybe some old school at low/mid  since it covers the D&D experience to a high degree and has surprising verisimilitude. E8 is more  I'm Batman! meets the feel of classic D&D which has it charms too  

Under those situations  I think your call was very good, No one is getting much swimming done at -10 (plus whatever encumbrance)

In truth its a tad generous to even allow it as I do given that say your PC is a Micheal Phelps clone in 3.5 his swim skill is at most 15 or so (skill focus swim, athletic feat, Stat of 16 max ranks in swim, l4 expert)

In theory he could swim but hey D&D and he is  monolithically   focused on swim as a skill. It might be more realistic to give him skill 13 (l2 expert, max ranks, plus the rest)

A normal PC, Joe the fighter might have swim 5 or 6, at DC15 check  that's blub, blub, blub for either

Quote from: BillDowns;844046In Traveller, I routinely over-ride the variable jump time rules.  Mainly because they weren't there when I started back in '77.

Usually, I specify a jump takes exactly 7 x 24 hours = 168 hours; navigation skill can be applied to reduce that.  Also if extra time is taken, then a fleet navigator, based on skill level, can get everyone in the task force at the destination together.

Just one rule as written that I dislike.

Huh. I thought the rules were still exactly 1 week unless there was a fowl up.