Quote from: cranebump;956474To be frank, even having to deal with 5E --more or less as is -- has made me a very grumpy GM. I don't like Feats at all, and I'd rather have have a pared down skill list, or none at all. I'm not looking forward to grindy combat due to people looking up stuff (and they will, unless I make a time rule on turns). The biggest proponent of 5E in the group gives me the typical "but it has more options" argument, to which I just reply, "It has more codified options than a stripped down version. You have the same amount of actual options in any game system, based on describing what you want to do. This just lets you put a name to what you do."

It's an age thing. He and his bud are younger players still basking in the glow of sundry widgets. But, this sums up the difference for me. When asked about their character, one of them tells me, "I'm playing a feylock wood elf eventually going pact of blade, maybe pact of tome."

Pacts. Tomes. Feylock. Wood Elf. Could've been worse. He might've said, "I'm playing a Feylock Pact of Tome Wood Elf Kor Hookmaster Acolyte. Named Bob." It just sounds so freakin' pretentious. Makes me miss the days of, "I'm playing an Elf."

Yep. Just a goddamned Elf...

Like I said, I get grumpy...I'll get over it, because we can likely have fun with any system. Plus, it's only a few weeks before the move, then I can kiss 5E core goodbye for good. (I honestly can't believe how annoyed I've been with it [grrrrrr, damned chargen took a couple hours because we had to scour the goddamned feats and spell lists [GRR, I SAY!]).

Where you moving?  Maybe there are some fellow Old Fucks around.

Quote from: cranebump;956474To be frank, even having to deal with 5E --more or less as is -- has made me a very grumpy GM. I don't like Feats at all, and I'd rather have have a pared down skill list, or none at all. I'm not looking forward to grindy combat due to people looking up stuff (and they will, unless I make a time rule on turns). The biggest proponent of 5E in the group gives me the typical "but it has more options" argument, to which I just reply, "It has more codified options than a stripped down version. You have the same amount of actual options in any game system, based on describing what you want to do. This just lets you put a name to what you do."

I'm with you - but it's not about the mechanical options. It's about the lack of context in which the core-rules assume are "normal".

It's an age thing. He and his bud are younger players still basking in the glow of sundry widgets. But, this sums up the difference for me. When asked about their character, one of them tells me, "I'm playing a feylock wood elf eventually going pact of blade, maybe pact of tome."

Pacts. Tomes. Feylock. Wood Elf. Could've been worse. He might've said, "I'm playing a Feylock Pact of Tome Wood Elf Kor Hookmaster Acolyte. Named Bob." It just sounds so freakin' pretentious. Makes me miss the days of, "I'm playing an Elf."

Yep. Just a goddamned Elf...

QuoteThis is exactly what I'm talking about. It's *assumed* that regardless of what you're running with the system your players can make PC's with these descriptors completely free of any context towards the campaign you're running. Of course you might be running that kinda game - for all I know, but the mechanics as they are don't really do much for making those descriptors meaningful in my opinion.

Quote from: cranebump;956474Like I said, I get grumpy...I'll get over it, because we can likely have fun with any system. Plus, it's only a few weeks before the move, then I can kiss 5E core goodbye for good. (I honestly can't believe how annoyed I've been with it [grrrrrr, damned chargen took a couple hours because we had to scour the goddamned feats and spell lists [GRR, I SAY!]).

Way ahead of you.

OD&D is available in PDF. Use that.  Don't even tell them.  Just say "Tell me what you want to do, I'll tell you if and when you roll."

Quote from: CRKrueger;956482Where you moving?  Maybe there are some fellow Old Fucks around.

Western Colorado. Looks pretty rural. Don't know exactly where we'll end up, but the job is in the New Castle Area, so Glenwood Springs and Rifle are options, with NC and Rifle being much closer to the job than GS.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956502OD&D is available in PDF. Use that.  Don't even tell them.  Just say "Tell me what you want to do, I'll tell you if and when you roll."

I'll do you one better (possibly) -- I should say the exact same thing as I drag out Swords & Six-Siders.:-)

Quote from: Omega;956468Often?

Most of the original tales that I can think of at first try, but I assume there are other tales that I could think of if I was to spend a bit more mental effort;).

Quote from: tenbones;956448Yeah, I'm a lazy fuck. But I'm currently rectifying that.

There's nothing wrong with using an established setting.  You're going to personalize it anyway.  It's like a sandwich, the base setting is the bread, you add all the fixings and trimmings you want, sometimes it turns out great and delicious, other times not so mush, but it's still something uniquely suited to your palate.

Aren't feats and skills optional in 5e?

Quote from: Voros;956557Aren't feats and skills optional in 5e?

They are, but...dumb ass me, I already sanctioned the core, with some addendum about race/classes (no tieflings, no dragonborn, etc.). Did no anticipate how annoyed I'd get until chargen.

My options now would be to say, "Hey guys, this shit makes me grumpy. Can we take out the skills and Feats so I can look myself in the mirror?" or "Hey, guys. Fuck this shit. Let's play Microlite20." I doubt the two old farts would care. Not sure what the two young farts would do.

It't the highest form of martial arts to be without form. Not the earliest.  If you try to be with out form from the start its just sloppy.  

I wonder if role playing is like that?  Players need to have mastered a number of systems before they can move beyond the system.

Quote from: cranebump;956474I don't like Feats at all,

 and I'd rather have have a pared down skill list, or none at all.

 I'm not looking forward to grindy combat due to people looking up stuff (and they will, unless I make a time rule on turns).

1: er? Feats are optional?

2: er... its a pared down skill set as is???

3: er... it shouldnt be? So far combats have zipped along pretty well. There might be some initial looking things up. But thats true of any first few sessions. Not so much an excuse if they know the system.

x: players like that might well bug me too.

Quote from: Omega;9566231: er? Feats are optional?

2: er... its a pared down skill set as is???

3: er... it shouldnt be? So far combats have zipped along pretty well. There might be some initial looking things up. But thats true of any first few sessions. Not so much an excuse if they know the system.

x: players like that might well bug me too.

I acknowledged that I should've dropped Feats, but since I didn't, and the characters are made, I don't feel I can rightly go back on that.

"Pared down" for me is 4-5 broad skill groups (or just the 6 abilities).

Two of them don't know the system. One of them is playing a Paladin, the other is a Wizard. Even with that, you have actions, reactions, special ability activitations, etc., etc., etc. Then there's the "sack of HP's" issue that makes up come of the monsters, so...we'll be plodding along.

(My own experience with 5E is playing every iteration of the playtest, then running as a player for a few sessions using the finished product. I don't think it's a bad system. I think I got used to Microlite when I ran "D&D," and that fits my grumpiness better).

Basic D&D 5e is your 5e core! ta-dah! I fixed your core PHB problem.

(Under Skills chapter they also talk about resolving things without specific skills and just using ability score checks with or without proficiency, as per GM adjudication. It actually really strengthens the fighter class because of how many extra Ability Score Increases it gets.)

(edit: It's neither here nor there that you no longer want to use 5e, to me. I also have some issues with the system for use in my desired settings or campaigns. So I'd change it accordingly, or just use a different system (like 2e for quite a few), and then go play. Solid chassis, great DIY potential, feels a bit squandered given the UA releases. Happy gaming in your new home!)

Quote from: Opaopajr;956725Basic D&D 5e is your 5e core! ta-dah! I fixed your core PHB problem.

(Under Skills chapter they also talk about resolving things without specific skills and just using ability score checks with or without proficiency, as per GM adjudication. It actually really strengthens the fighter class because of how many extra Ability Score Increases it gets.)

(edit: It's neither here nor there that you no longer want to use 5e, to me. I also have some issues with the system for use in my desired settings or campaigns. So I'd change it accordingly, or just use a different system (like 2e for quite a few), and then go play. Solid chassis, great DIY potential, feels a bit squandered given the UA releases. Happy gaming in your new home!)

Basic 5E was actually my initial thought.  But I already allowed them to make the characters according to the non-basic rules.  Have I to do it over again, and was forced to run 5E, your suggestion is likely exactly the thing I would do.  Which means my grumpiness is likely due to the fact that I've made a decision that I don't want to stick with.

Quote from: cranebump;956738Basic 5E was actually my initial thought.  But I already allowed them to make the characters according to the non-basic rules.  Have I to do it over again, and was forced to run 5E, your suggestion is likely exactly the thing I would do.  Which means my grumpiness is likely due to the fact that I've made a decision that I don't want to stick with.

So your problem is by fiat you allowed the players to make charcters more "gamey" with feats and such than you want to deal with?  

Can you have a version of "the talk" with them?  Change systems? Make a no rule books at the table rule?  Hard for a wisard but if you print their spell book, the can flip through a limted number of spells instead of the whole players hand book.

And if you don't like meat shield monsters just have them run or give up after they start losing.  If the are getting whittled they keep fighting, they are big and strong after all.  But if they take a couple of big hits with out answering they bail.